Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Chapter size


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1
Minigiant

Minigiant

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 494 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Chapter Name: Denizens of the Deep
Hi everyone

I have a quick question fluff wise about the Space wolves chapter size. I have always been under the assumption that the chapter is smaller than most due to its organisation and structure.

Is this the case? If so where would that be written again?

I am using it in my IA and now need to basically reference it

I appreciate any and all help you can give me in this matter. Thank you

#2
Jarl Deathwolf

Jarl Deathwolf

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 300 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iowa, USA
  • Chapter Name: The Deathwolves

If memory serves, each Great Company is about the size of a normal space marine Company. So, judging based of that, we are normally about 20% larger than the normal Chapter.

 

Of course, this varies. Some companies are a bit smaller, but some of the Great Companies (Blackmanes, Grimnar's) getting as high as 150 of the Vlka. I've seen people debate about this, but it is safe to say that we are over Chapter strength. With the whole Gathering Storm and Warzone Fenris debacle, I'm not sure where we sit. I'd say around Chapter strength still, though.

 

I'll dig around my codexes for numbers. Maybe a loremaster will arrive with more solid data.

 

Hope that helps, comrade.


Hmm, so tempted to make a Wolf Lord named Hannibal just so I can annoy my opponents by having all the Space Wolves constantly say "I ain't gettin' on no goddamn plane Hannibal".

 

8.jpg


#3
Leif Bearclaw

Leif Bearclaw

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,089 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves

Certainly over Chapter strength (when 'full strength' of course, which is a nebulous anyway thanks to ), thanks to having 12 Companies rather than 10, if nothing else.

 

As for GC size, they're generally portrayed as at least Codex Company sized in most fluff. The recent book have given exact numbers for several, with Logan's coming in at around 200, and Ragnar's slightly less than 200. On the other hand, IA 11 specifically refers to Bran's company as 200 or so dudes, and it might imply than that's a normal size for a GC. I'd have to check the book though, and that is a job for the morning.

 

Personally, I despise the specific numberings given and reckon all GCs should be 200+. But then I also reckon that most new fluff should be ignored, and pretty much anything from about Warzone Damocles onwards was actually Abbadon's last fever dream before the Cadian guard atomised him with a nice big artillery barrage. So what do I know teehee.gif?



#4
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights

Minigiant, you should read this thread from almost exactly two years ago.  A lot of great discussion and sources provided.

 

Valerian


Edited by Valerian, 08 May 2017 - 03:53 AM.

  • Lord Ragnarok likes this

#5
Bulvi Nightbane

Bulvi Nightbane

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15 posts

The fluff on the size of the Space Wolves chapter is scattered and fragmented throughout many books. Many also tend to make assumptions based on only a few sources and end up being quite wrong. First, the Space Wolves are more numerous than any other chapter save perhaps the Black Templars. We do not follow the codex, but we do have a few similarities. For example, every Great Company records its strength as the number of "battle brothers" in its ranks. Now many people see the orders of battle in the codex or Hour of the Wolf and make the assumption that those represent the full strength of the Great Company depicted, but this is categorically wrong. One, those pages state that they show the forces deployed by that Great Company for a specific battle, no mention is made of those showing their full numbers. Two, a codex based company includes a command squad that does not count toward its 100 battle brothers. In the same way the Wolf Guard do not count towards those numbers, and because they are not limited to a single squad of 10 they may significantly increase the size of a Great Company. Three, the Wolf Scouts do not count towards the Great Company's strength, this is official lore that they are assigned to support the Great Companies by the Great Wolf himself in the same way as Dreadnoughts and any extra Priests. Four, Great Companies are very often divided into multiple strike forces in order to support numerous wars at a time. These strike forces can range in size within the lore from a single pack, to a Wolf Guard commanding dozens or even scores of his brothers, to the more sizable force that remain with the Wolf Lord as have been depicted. The final point is up for debate as it is not entirely clear. The 3 remaining pack types are Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Blood Claws. The Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are most certainly battle brothers and count towards a Great Company's strength, but do the Blood Claws? They do fight on the main line and wear power armor, but they are also called initiates still and must earn a place among the Grey Hunters. Personally I lean towards them not being battle brothers, but for the sake of being conservative with are estimates lets include them. 

 

Now, most of the Great Companies have between 100-150 battle brothers at any one time (remember they have no max so you can safely assume that when we are given those numbers it is a level they can easily maintain most of the time). Only Rangar and Grimnar are stated as have 200+. To remain conservative with this assume an average strength of 150 for the Great Companies after Wolf Guard, scouts, lone wolves, etc. are added. Say 250 for Ragnar, and because we know Grimnar has many more Wolf Guard assume he has 300. Now the wolves will have other support forces and groups of marines outside of this just as a codex chapter does, but since they are not included there we will ignore them as well. All of this would leave us with a conservative estimate of the chapter's strength at just over 2000 warriors. If we go with my preference regarding the Blood Claws that number could easily go over 3000.

 

Now to head off anyone attempting to disagree, look at the Great Company formations and what they allow the full strength of those to be:

Blackmanes=340

Champions of Fenris=480

Deathwolves=230

Drakeslayers=260

Iron Wolves=240

Firehowlers=260

Others=260 average

TOTAL=3370



#6
Vash113

Vash113

    ++ SCRIPTOR CLASSIARIUM ++

  • + LEXICANIUM +
  • 5,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arlington, Virginia

Bulvi I don't think the formations were ever intended to indicate the size of Great Companies in the fluff.

 

As for what we do know from the fluff we actually do have full strength outlines for a number of Great Companies from Curse of the Wulfen and a few other sources of the standing strength before the Wrath of Magnus that are as follows: 

 

Champions of Fenris - 200 exactly

Blackmanes - 188

Morkai - 119

Ironwolves - 119

Firehowlers - 148

Deathwolves - 100

 

This represents half the chapter and a total strength of 874 battle-brothers with a max strength of 200 and a minimum of 100. The remaining companies likely fall somewhere in the 120-140 range so a remaining estimated strength of the final 6 companies at around 780 for a chapter strength of right around 1650 space marines, about one and a half times the full strength of a codex chapter.

 

This doesn't include unassigned claw units, remote garrisons, ship crews, training cadres or priests of Dreadnoughts. I'd estimate around 20 of each type of priest and we know the chapter has around 100 Dreadnoughts bringing the strength up to just over 1800 plus the aforementioned non-combat personnel, garrisons and crews which I'd estimate would probably add another couple hundred bodies to the chapter but not likely a whole lot more than that. At most I'd say the Space Wolves at average full-strength stand around 2000 strong with a normal codex chapter taking into consideration specialists and officers likely stands at the 1200-1400 range so the wolves again likely stand around one and a half the size of a codex chapter.

 

Also it should be noted that we have absolutely no idea how many Wulfen have been gathered and returned to the chapter and scattered amongst the companies but I'd probably estimate about 20 per company at the least.


  • Valerian likes this

"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?"
"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
-1st Captain Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Captain of the Luna Wolves 2nd Company.

Comprehensive History Archive


#7
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights

I see this was your first post on the board.  Welcome to the Fang.  We hope you enjoy it here.
 
 

The fluff on the size of the Space Wolves chapter is scattered and fragmented throughout many books. Many also tend to make assumptions based on only a few sources and end up being quite wrong. First, the Space Wolves are more numerous than any other chapter save perhaps the Black Templars. We do not follow the codex, but we do have a few similarities. For example, every Great Company records its strength as the number of "battle brothers" in its ranks. Now many people see the orders of battle in the codex or Hour of the Wolf and make the assumption that those represent the full strength of the Great Company depicted, but this is categorically wrong.


That's a bold claim to say this is categorically wrong. Let's see if you can prove it.
 

One, those pages state that they show the forces deployed by that Great Company for a specific battle, no mention is made of those showing their full numbers.


That's true that this is an assumption, and it is not specified that those are the full numbers for the composition of the Great Companies. The reason people make this assumption is because the sizes of those Great Companies as depicted in the 7e Codex and Supplement matches up well with the other evidence for Great Company size. So folks say that this is a reinforcing piece of evidence, rather than relying on it solely. If we had evidence that the Great Companies were much larger, then we'd make the assumption that the forces specified must be a "slice" of the total number of Marines in those two GCs. Since we don't have that evidence, it makes sense that they are in fact giving the full count of Marines in the GC. The reason that they are specific to a battle is because we also know that the size of GCs is variable over time (battlefield losses versus new initiates). So, we're given the total forces for Ragnar's GC at the Battle of Alaric Prime in 998M41, which might be a little different than the size of his GC at the "current" point in time in the setting.
 

Two, a codex based company includes a command squad that does not count toward its 100 battle brothers. In the same way the Wolf Guard do not count towards those numbers, and because they are not limited to a single squad of 10 they may significantly increase the size of a Great Company.


The Command Squad and the officers of a Codex Chapter's Battle Companies do not count in their 10 squads of 10 Marines (for the nominal 100 Marines in a Battle Company), but would count in the overall numbers of Marines assigned to that Company, just as the Wolf Guard would be counted within the number of Marines in a Space Wolf Great Company. You've made a huge assumption here that we wouldn't count the retinue of a Wolf Lord within his Great Company, which is especially odd, since the Studio writers have never once said that they do not count them.

 

Three, the Wolf Scouts do not count towards the Great Company's strength, this is official lore that they are assigned to support the Great Companies by the Great Wolf himself in the same way as Dreadnoughts and any extra Priests.


You need to double-check your sources here. Wolf Scouts were noted as being assigned to the Company of the Great Wolf back in the 2nd Edition Codex, but that was retconned with the 3rd Edition Codex, and they've been assigned to the other Great Companies for going on 20 years now (in real-world time). So, when it says on page 21 of the 7e Codex of Erik Morkai that "his company has a great many Wolf Scouts," they're talking about Space Wolves that are organic to his Great Company, not assigned to his GC from the Company of the Great Wolf.
 

Four, Great Companies are very often divided into multiple strike forces in order to support numerous wars at a time. These strike forces can range in size within the lore from a single pack, to a Wolf Guard commanding dozens or even scores of his brothers, to the more sizable force that remain with the Wolf Lord as have been depicted.


This is true, but doesn't really support your claim for larger than given Great Company sizes.  We weren't told that Ragnar had split his Great Company up during the campaign for Alaric Prime, after all.
 

The final point is up for debate as it is not entirely clear. The 3 remaining pack types are Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Blood Claws. The Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are most certainly battle brothers and count towards a Great Company's strength, but do the Blood Claws? They do fight on the main line and wear power armor, but they are also called initiates still and must earn a place among the Grey Hunters. Personally I lean towards them not being battle brothers, but for the sake of being conservative with are estimates lets include them.

 

Now, most of the Great Companies have between 100-150 battle brothers at any one time (remember they have no max so you can safely assume that when we are given those numbers it is a level they can easily maintain most of the time). Only Rangar and Grimnar are stated as have 200+. To remain conservative with this assume an average strength of 150 for the Great Companies after Wolf Guard, scouts, lone wolves, etc. are added.


Okay, I think I'm with you so far. Most of the Great Companies having between 100-150 battle brothers [personally I think this is a tad low], and Ragnar and Grimnar having around 200.
 

Say 250 for Ragnar, and because we know Grimnar has many more Wolf Guard assume he has 300.


Woah, wait a minute. Where did these numbers come from? You just pulled those out of nowhere with no evidence to back them up.

 

 

So, instead of making up numbers, let's look at the actual numbers that we've been given:

 

1.  From the 5th Edition Codex: "The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all."

 

2.  Then from the 7th Edition Codex we get the full listing of the Company of the Blackmane, at the Battle for Alaric Prime, 998.M41, which adds up to a total of 188 Marines, which is, not coincidentally "almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors."

 

3.  In the 7e Space Wolves Supplement we get the following: "Logan's Great Company is the largest in the Chapter," which we already knew from the 5e Codex, and we get the full listing of the Brethren of the Great Wolf, also at the Battle for Alaric Prime, 998M41, which adds up to a total of exactly 200 Marines.

 

4.  The Imperial Armour XI book "The Doom of Mymeara," from Forgeworld states, "Bran Redmaw is a Wolf Lord, chieftain of a Great Company of up to 200 Space Wolves warriors...."  The important bit here, I would say is the "up to" part; this actually matches pretty well with what we already know about the sizes of Logan's and Ragnar's forces (see immediately above), and would put Bran's Great Company as coming in at a very close 3rd place to Ragnar's in size.

 

5.  We have the exact size of Wolf Lord Erik Morkai's Great Company shown as a total of 119 Space Wolves from the digital content that came with the Bloodspire & Deathwolves Space Marines Battles audiobook.  This would put Morkai's GC at the lower end of the size of Great Companies.

 

EDIT:

 

Vash reminded me that the full Great Company counts of several more Wolf Lords was included in the War Zone Fenris - Curse of the Wulfen campaign supplement.  Once again, there is no indication that the details presented are not the full roster of Marines in the companies.

 

6.  We have Wolf Lord Harald Deathwolf's Great Company at a total of 130 Space Wolves, from Curse of the Wulfen.

 

7.  Egil Ironwolf's Great Company is at 119 Marines, from Curse of the Wulfen, which puts his at the same size as Erik Morkai's, and on the lower end of GC sizes known.

 

8.  Sven Bloodhowl's Firehowlers are 148 Space Wolves strong, from Curse of the Wulfen.

 

9.  Logan Grimnar's Great Company is now down to 186 Marines, but some time has passed between the events of this campaign, and the earlier campaign to relieve Alaric Prime, so the new lower number presumably accounts for some losses.

 

So, I would submit that it is pretty clear from the information that we've actually been given by various Studio publications, that we have the size and scope of the Great Companies pretty well bounded.  

 

Now, when we look at the rosters we've been given closely, we'll see that they do only include the Infantry, Bikers, and the Thunderwolf Cavalry.  We have not been given any details about the many pilots and crewmen that we know would also be organic in the Great  Companies to operate the vehicles that support the fighting Packs.  It would be more than appropriate to add another score or more Marines to the numbers that we've been given to account for those men, as well.  For whatever reason, while we know that the combat vehicles are also a part of the Great Company, and are manned, the Studio writers never bother to include them.

 

Best,

 

V

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Vash, but I did stop to have dinner with the family in the middle of writing this.


Edited by Valerian, 20 May 2017 - 02:29 AM.

  • Vash113 likes this

#8
Bulvi Nightbane

Bulvi Nightbane

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15 posts

Bulvi I don't think the formations were ever intended to indicate the size of Great Companies in the fluff.

 

As for what we do know from the fluff we actually do have full strength outlines for a number of Great Companies from Curse of the Wulfen and a few other sources of the standing strength before the Wrath of Magnus that are as follows: 

 

Champions of Fenris - 200 exactly

Blackmanes - 188

Morkai - 119

Ironwolves - 119

Firehowlers - 148

Deathwolves - 100

 

This represents half the chapter and a total strength of 874 battle-brothers with a max strength of 200 and a minimum of 100. The remaining companies likely fall somewhere in the 120-140 range so a remaining estimated strength of the final 6 companies at around 780 for a chapter strength of right around 1650 space marines, about one and a half times the full strength of a codex chapter.

 

This doesn't include unassigned claw units, remote garrisons, ship crews, training cadres or priests of Dreadnoughts. I'd estimate around 20 of each type of priest and we know the chapter has around 100 Dreadnoughts bringing the strength up to just over 1800 plus the aforementioned non-combat personnel, garrisons and crews which I'd estimate would probably add another couple hundred bodies to the chapter but not likely a whole lot more than that. At most I'd say the Space Wolves at average full-strength stand around 2000 strong with a normal codex chapter taking into consideration specialists and officers likely stands at the 1200-1400 range so the wolves again likely stand around one and a half the size of a codex chapter.

 

Also it should be noted that we have absolutely no idea how many Wulfen have been gathered and returned to the chapter and scattered amongst the companies but I'd probably estimate about 20 per company at the least.

Those numbers you reference are only depictions of the packs present for those battles. It is never stated that those are their full strength. As I said before there are many instances of the Great Companies have much of their strength divided into other strike forces involved in other wars. Also please take note that the formations were only one example showing that the chapter MIGHT be that big. I first and most importantly gave a more conservative estimate that put the chapter's strength just over 2k (not including Wulfen). Please it pay attention to my entire post, it feels as though you just skipped to the end.



#9
Vash113

Vash113

    ++ SCRIPTOR CLASSIARIUM ++

  • + LEXICANIUM +
  • 5,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arlington, Virginia

Those numbers you reference are only depictions of the packs present for those battles. It is never stated that those are their full strength. As I said before there are many instances of the Great Companies have much of their strength divided into other strike forces involved in other wars. Also please take note that the formations were only one example showing that the chapter MIGHT be that big. I first and most importantly gave a more conservative estimate that put the chapter's strength just over 2k (not including Wulfen). Please it pay attention to my entire post, it feels as though you just skipped to the end.

 

 

 

Yes and no, it is true that it is common for strike forces from companies to be elsewhere at any given time however it does not then follow that we cannot assume these represent the full strength of the company at the time, as no mention is ever made of secondary deployments, none. You assume such deployments exist, but there is no evidence of that. As Valerian pointed out we know from other sources that the strength of the Blackmanes is at most nearly two hundred and second only to the Champions of Fenris, those numbers fit perfectly with the listed outlines of the companies which put the Blackmanes at 188 strong, nearly two hundred, and the CoF at exactly 200. Your estimates of 250 and 300 strong are just not supported by any material what so ever.

 

As for your post Bulvi I'll say this, I responded to the part of your post I felt like responding to. Nowhere in the forum rules does it say that anyone must respond to or engage with the entirety of someone else's post. You made a separate argument at the end of your post that I felt like responding to but otherwise did not see the need to engage with the rest, nor must I do so. Given that your reference to formations has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the arguments presented or the content of the rest of your post I saw no reason to take the time to respond in detail as Valerian chose to (and did an excellent job too IMO).

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Vash, but I did stop to have dinner with the family in the middle of writing this.

 

Hey my response was shorter and yours did a good job responding in detail! yes.gif 


  • Valerian likes this

"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?"
"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
-1st Captain Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Captain of the Luna Wolves 2nd Company.

Comprehensive History Archive


#10
Bulvi Nightbane

Bulvi Nightbane

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15 posts

I see this was your first post on the board.  Welcome to the Fang.  We hope you enjoy it here.
 
 

The fluff on the size of the Space Wolves chapter is scattered and fragmented throughout many books. Many also tend to make assumptions based on only a few sources and end up being quite wrong. First, the Space Wolves are more numerous than any other chapter save perhaps the Black Templars. We do not follow the codex, but we do have a few similarities. For example, every Great Company records its strength as the number of "battle brothers" in its ranks. Now many people see the orders of battle in the codex or Hour of the Wolf and make the assumption that those represent the full strength of the Great Company depicted, but this is categorically wrong.


That's a bold claim to say this is categorically wrong. Let's see if you can prove it.
 

One, those pages state that they show the forces deployed by that Great Company for a specific battle, no mention is made of those showing their full numbers.


That's true that this is an assumption, and it is not specified that those are the full numbers for the composition of the Great Companies. The reason people make this assumption is because the sizes of those Great Companies as depicted in the 7e Codex and Supplement matches up well with the other evidence for Great Company size. So folks say that this is a reinforcing piece of evidence, rather than relying on it solely. If we had evidence that the Great Companies were much larger, then we'd make the assumption that the forces specified must be a "slice" of the total number of Marines in those two GCs. Since we don't have that evidence, it makes sense that they are in fact giving the full count of Marines in the GC. The reason that they are specific to a battle is because we also know that the size of GCs is variable over time (battlefield losses versus new initiates). So, we're given the total forces for Ragnar's GC at the Battle of Alaric Prime in 998M41, which might be a little different than the size of his GC at the "current" point in time in the setting.
 

Two, a codex based company includes a command squad that does not count toward its 100 battle brothers. In the same way the Wolf Guard do not count towards those numbers, and because they are not limited to a single squad of 10 they may significantly increase the size of a Great Company.


The Command Squad and the officers of a Codex Chapter's Battle Companies do not count in their 10 squads of 10 Marines (for the nominal 100 Marines in a Battle Company), but would count in the overall numbers of Marines assigned to that Company, just as the Wolf Guard would be counted within the number of Marines in a Space Wolf Great Company. You've made a huge assumption here that we wouldn't count the retinue of a Wolf Lord within his Great Company, which is especially odd, since the Studio writers have never once said that they do not count them.

 

Three, the Wolf Scouts do not count towards the Great Company's strength, this is official lore that they are assigned to support the Great Companies by the Great Wolf himself in the same way as Dreadnoughts and any extra Priests.


You need to double-check your sources here. Wolf Scouts were noted as being assigned to the Company of the Great Wolf back in the 2nd Edition Codex, but that was retconned with the 3rd Edition Codex, and they've been assigned to the other Great Companies for going on 20 years now (in real-world time). So, when it says on page 21 of the 7e Codex of Erik Morkai that "his company has a great many Wolf Scouts," they're talking about Space Wolves that are organic to his Great Company, not assigned to his GC from the Company of the Great Wolf.
 

Four, Great Companies are very often divided into multiple strike forces in order to support numerous wars at a time. These strike forces can range in size within the lore from a single pack, to a Wolf Guard commanding dozens or even scores of his brothers, to the more sizable force that remain with the Wolf Lord as have been depicted.


This is true, but doesn't really support your claim for larger than given Great Company sizes.  We weren't told that Ragnar had split his Great Company up during the campaign for Alaric Prime, after all.
 

The final point is up for debate as it is not entirely clear. The 3 remaining pack types are Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Blood Claws. The Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are most certainly battle brothers and count towards a Great Company's strength, but do the Blood Claws? They do fight on the main line and wear power armor, but they are also called initiates still and must earn a place among the Grey Hunters. Personally I lean towards them not being battle brothers, but for the sake of being conservative with are estimates lets include them.

 

Now, most of the Great Companies have between 100-150 battle brothers at any one time (remember they have no max so you can safely assume that when we are given those numbers it is a level they can easily maintain most of the time). Only Rangar and Grimnar are stated as have 200+. To remain conservative with this assume an average strength of 150 for the Great Companies after Wolf Guard, scouts, lone wolves, etc. are added.


Okay, I think I'm with you so far. Most of the Great Companies having between 100-150 battle brothers [personally I think this is a tad low], and Ragnar and Grimnar having around 200.
 

Say 250 for Ragnar, and because we know Grimnar has many more Wolf Guard assume he has 300.


Woah, wait a minute. Where did these numbers come from? You just pulled those out of nowhere with no evidence to back them up.

 

 

So, instead of making up numbers, let's look at the actual numbers that we've been given:

 

1.  From the 5th Edition Codex: "The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all."

 

2.  Then from the 7th Edition Codex we get the full listing of the Company of the Blackmane, at the Battle for Alaric Prime, 998.M41, which adds up to a total of 188 Marines, which is, not coincidentally "almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors."

 

3.  In the 7e Space Wolves Supplement we get the following: "Logan's Great Company is the largest in the Chapter," which we already knew from the 5e Codex, and we get the full listing of the Brethren of the Great Wolf, also at the Battle for Alaric Prime, 998M41, which adds up to a total of exactly 200 Marines.

 

4.  The Imperial Armour XI book "The Doom of Mymeara," from Forgeworld states, "Bran Redmaw is a Wolf Lord, chieftain of a Great Company of up to 200 Space Wolves warriors...."  The important bit here, I would say is the "up to" part; this actually matches pretty well with what we already know about the sizes of Logan's and Ragnar's forces (see immediately above), and would put Bran's Great Company as coming in at a very close 3rd place to Ragnar's in size.

 

5.  We have the exact size of Wolf Lord Erik Morkai's Great Company shown as a total of 119 Space Wolves from the digital content that came with the Bloodspire & Deathwolves Space Marines Battles audiobook.  This would put Morkai's GC at the lower end of the size of Great Companies.

 

 

So, I would submit that it is pretty clear from the information that we've actually been given by various Studio publications, that we have the size and scope of the Great Companies pretty well bounded.  

 

Now, when we look at the rosters we've been given closely, we'll see that they do only include the Infantry, Bikers, and the Thunderwolf Cavalry.  We have not been given any details about the many pilots and crewmen that we know would also be organic in the Great  Companies to operate the vehicles that support the fighting Packs.  It would be more than appropriate to add another score or more Marines to the numbers that we've been given to account for those men, as well.  For whatever reason, while we know that the combat vehicles are also a part of the Great Company, and are manned, the Studio writers never bother to include them.

 

Best,

 

V

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Vash, but I did stop to have dinner with the family in the middle of writing this.

Thank you for the attempt at a welcome, but I have actually been here for many years. This is actually my 6th profile. Something keeps happening to them and I can't log in anymore. Every time I have asked for help with it I was ignored so I just accepted that I will have to start over every now and then. 

 

To the first point let us use Ragnar Blackmane as the example. 187 warriors to start. He loses more than 20 in Legacy of Russ. More than twice that in Wrath of Magnus. Scores more in the newest Ragnar Blackmane novel. Even after all of that it says he has 51 warriors you make it out of the ruined cadian city they were fighting in. That matches the descriptions roughly of the casualties suffered including several full packs being wiped out. Yet in the final chapter of that book he calls for more of his warriors to deploy from orbit. This reveals that his Great Company is actually noticeably stronger than the 187 depicted. The second example is the Firehowlers. I will not detail all of it here, but I took the time to calculate how many casualties his company suffers in the books, and it exceeds the starting strength depicted in Curse of the Wulfen by a significant margin. There is no way his company could go through the fighting in the Fenris system and the 13th Black Crusade, and yet still have 56 men able to fight in Fall of Cadia. Not unless the total strength of his company is much higher.

 

You are choosing to willfully ignore evidence that disproves your assumption, not an uncommon practice among 40k fans.

 

Do you realize you directly contradicted yourself there? Each Codex company is 10 squads of 10 marines each, 100 men. The 10  companies make up 1000 battle brothers, with the command squads and honor guard never being included in the calculation. Also, I am not making an assumption regarding the Wolf Guard. I have been, in person, by 3 different Black Library authors that the Wolf Guard are considered outside of the standard strength just like a codex honor guard.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble on the Wolf Scouts but you are completely wrong. They are still part of the Great Wolf's comapny and it has never been retconned. In fact in the Ragnar Blackmane novel, the latest Space Wolf publication, it says "Jarl,' the Scout greeted him. Not My jarl. The Scouts walked beyond the borders of the twelve Great Companies, beholden only to the orders of High King Grimnar." page 110.

 

Admittedly the potential for other strike forces is not the strongest piece of evidence, but it is still evidence building on the others.

 

Please reread my calculations, I never made any numbers up. Average great comapany is 100-150 men, then add Wolf Guard and attached scouts and lone wolves etc to make 125-175 with an average of 150 for simplicity's sake. 200 for Ragnar plus the Wolf Guard etc. for 250 (larger company can support more guard and needs more scouts for support). 200 for Grimnar who we know has many more Wolf Guard than the others to make 300.

 

1. "battle hardened warriors" that would not include the Blood Claws so you probably shouldn't use that to support your point.

 

2. The list for Alaric Prime includes the Wolf Scouts. I have already demonstrated how they do not count towards his 200 so you still have no proof as that would leave his company well below 200.

 

3. Yes Logan's is the largest, but again there is no evidence to prove that shows his full Great Company, merely an assumption on your part.

 

4. Please provide page number as I cannot find "up to" in my copy. You are assuming that they are limited to only 200 men based on that, a serious logical fallacy.

 

5. I forget which book it was in but I believe it has been stated before that Morkai's company is on the small side, but those numbers include the scouts, refer to proof of that problem above.

 

The vehicle crews are stated on a number of occasions as being Grey Hunters. I included them in the numbers I added in the estimation of Great Company sizes, thus why Ragnar's increased from 200 to 250 between them the guard and any other anomalous forces. 

 

Always a pleasure,

Bulvi



#11
Bulvi Nightbane

Bulvi Nightbane

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15 posts

 

Those numbers you reference are only depictions of the packs present for those battles. It is never stated that those are their full strength. As I said before there are many instances of the Great Companies have much of their strength divided into other strike forces involved in other wars. Also please take note that the formations were only one example showing that the chapter MIGHT be that big. I first and most importantly gave a more conservative estimate that put the chapter's strength just over 2k (not including Wulfen). Please it pay attention to my entire post, it feels as though you just skipped to the end.

 

 

 

Yes and no, it is true that it is common for strike forces from companies to be elsewhere at any given time however it does not then follow that we cannot assume these represent the full strength of the company at the time, as no mention is ever made of secondary deployments, none. You assume such deployments exist, but there is no evidence of that. As Valerian pointed out we know from other sources that the strength of the Blackmanes is at most nearly two hundred and second only to the Champions of Fenris, those numbers fit perfectly with the listed outlines of the companies which put the Blackmanes at 188 strong, nearly two hundred, and the CoF at exactly 200. Your estimates of 250 and 300 strong are just not supported by any material what so ever.

 

As for your post Bulvi I'll say this, I responded to the part of your post I felt like responding to. Nowhere in the forum rules does it say that anyone must respond to or engage with the entirety of someone else's post. You made a separate argument at the end of your post that I felt like responding to but otherwise did not see the need to engage with the rest, nor must I do so. Given that your reference to formations has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the arguments presented or the content of the rest of your post I saw no reason to take the time to respond in detail as Valerian chose to (and did an excellent job too IMO).

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Vash, but I did stop to have dinner with the family in the middle of writing this.

 

Hey my response was shorter and yours did a good job responding in detail! yes.gif

 

There is also no proof that the strike forces did not exist. You are throwing out my point and then proceeding to make an equally insubstantial claim. Also, see the proof I provided regarding Wolf Scouts. Taking them out of that list leaves Ragnar with only 168 men, invalidating that list as proof of his company's strength.

 

I included the potential numbers from the formations simply as an alternative. I never stated that I agreed with that number, in fact I suggested a lower one. The only purpose there was to show GW leaving the possibility open in their own work for the chapter to be much larger than many assume it to be.

 

Yes you do not have to respond to everything and can respond how you wish, but I am also free to respond when I feel my position has been misrepresented.



#12
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights
Sorry to burst your bubble on the Wolf Scouts but you are completely wrong. They are still part of the Great Wolf's comapny and it has never been retconned. In fact in the Ragnar Blackmane novel, the latest Space Wolf publication, it says "Jarl,' the Scout greeted him. Not My jarl. The Scouts walked beyond the borders of the twelve Great Companies, beholden only to the orders of High King Grimnar." page 110.

 

 

No time to respond to everything tonight, but I can at least respond to this bit regarding Wolf Scouts.

 

On page 11 of the 2nd Edition Codex, we have details on the Company of the Great Wolf.  There is a picture at the bottom of the page which shows the Company of the Great Wolf and it includes the Wolf Scouts, the three types of Priests (Wolf, Iron, and Rune) and the Dreadnoughts.

 

   -- One thing that important to note here is that back in 2nd edition the Wolf Scouts were the new recruits, just like the Scouts of the other Chapters.  The details of the Wolf Scouts are given on page 14.

 

When the 3rd Edition "minidex" was released, the Wolf Scouts were changed from being the new recruits, to being experienced Space Wolves that would have otherwise gone on to Grey Hunter packs (this is the point when they introduced the idea that Wolf Scouts were natural loners, etc).  Jervis Johnson talks about this on page 10 of White Dwarf 244, which coincided with the release of that codex.  At this point the Wolf Scouts were taken out of the Company of the Great Wolf and were from that point on organic to the 12 Great Companies, just like all of the other types of packs.  

 

Now, I don't know what I've done with my 3rd Edition codex, but I do have the 5th edition codex which says of the Company of the Great Wolf (on page 14), "The Company of the Great Wolf is effectively another company in itself, but differs from the Great Companies in some important respects.  This company is host to the Chapter's priesthood - its Wolf Priests, Iron Priests and Rune Priests.  It is also where the Chapter's Dreadnoughts are kept in stasis to extend their already prolonged lifespans."

 

As you can see for yourself, the codex doesn't mention anything about the Wolf Scouts.  That's because they aren't in the Company of the Great Wolf, and hadn't been for the past three editions of the game at that point.  Where the 5th edition codex does mention Wolf Scouts is in the section that details the Wolf Lords (page 16), where we see that Erik Morkai's Great Company "boasts a great many Wolf Scouts, fellow veterans who appreciate their master's taciturn demeanor and no-nonsense approach."  Why would it talk about the Wolf Scouts of Erik Morkai's Great Company (and him being their master) if they were actually in the Company of the Great Wolf?

 

The 7th edition codex uses the same language as the 5th edition codex.

 

EDIT:  Just found my copy of the 3rd Edition codex, and it says the same thing as the 5th and 7th edition codexes on the very last page under "Chapter Organization."  The only units mentioned as being in the Company of the Great Wolf are the Priests and the Dreadnoughts.

 

EDIT 2:  So, I agree with

 

Please reread my calculations, I never made any numbers up. Average great comapany is 100-150 men, then add Wolf Guard and attached scouts and lone wolves etc to make 125-175 with an average of 150 for simplicity's sake. 200 for Ragnar plus the Wolf Guard etc. for 250 (larger company can support more guard and needs more scouts for support). 200 for Grimnar who we know has many more Wolf Guard than the others to make 300.

 

So, I agree with your initial assessment that the average Great Company is 100-150 men.  Actually, I'd say the average is a bit higher than that, but we're splitting hairs at this point.  However, where we disagree is that you contend that for some reason we shouldn't be including the Wolf Guard, Wolf Scout Packs, and Lone Wolves, all of which are very much already a part of each Great Company.  There is no reason whatsoever that any and all of those men would not already be included in the numbers of the infantry in the Great Companies.  Those Space Wolves belong to those Great Companies and no others.  Not a single one of those is a part of the Company of the Great Wolf.  I've already shown you where the Wolf Scouts moved from the CotGW to the other Great Companies back in 2003, I think it was.  The Wolf Guard are the pack-mates of the Wolf Lord himself, so of course they're in the Great Company, and the Lone Wolves are just the leftovers from destroyed packs.

 

I know you're passionate about this, but Vash and I have already shown you that we've been provided the full rosters for 7 out of the 12 Great Companies.  


Edited by Valerian, 20 May 2017 - 03:30 AM.


#13
Bulvi Nightbane

Bulvi Nightbane

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15 posts

 

Sorry to burst your bubble on the Wolf Scouts but you are completely wrong. They are still part of the Great Wolf's comapny and it has never been retconned. In fact in the Ragnar Blackmane novel, the latest Space Wolf publication, it says "Jarl,' the Scout greeted him. Not My jarl. The Scouts walked beyond the borders of the twelve Great Companies, beholden only to the orders of High King Grimnar." page 110.

 

 

No time to respond to everything tonight, but I can at least respond to this bit regarding Wolf Scouts.

 

On page 11 of the 2nd Edition Codex, we have details on the Company of the Great Wolf.  There is a picture at the bottom of the page which shows the Company of the Great Wolf and it includes the Wolf Scouts, the three types of Priests (Wolf, Iron, and Rune) and the Dreadnoughts.

 

   -- One thing that important to note here is that back in 2nd edition the Wolf Scouts were the new recruits, just like the Scouts of the other Chapters.  The details of the Wolf Scouts are given on page 14.

 

When the 3rd Edition "minidex" was released, the Wolf Scouts were changed from being the new recruits, to being experienced Space Wolves that would have otherwise gone on to Grey Hunter packs (this is the point when they introduced the idea that Wolf Scouts were natural loners, etc).  Jervis Johnson talks about this on page 10 of White Dwarf 244, which coincided with the release of that codex.  At this point the Wolf Scouts were taken out of the Company of the Great Wolf and were from that point on organic to the 12 Great Companies, just like all of the other types of packs.  

 

Now, I don't know what I've done with my 3rd Edition codex, but I do have the 5th edition codex which says of the Company of the Great Wolf (on page 14), "The Company of the Great Wolf is effectively another company in itself, but differs from the Great Companies in some important respects.  This company is host to the Chapter's priesthood - its Wolf Priests, Iron Priests and Rune Priests.  It is also where the Chapter's Dreadnoughts are kept in stasis to extend their already prolonged lifespans."

 

As you can see for yourself, the codex doesn't mention anything about the Wolf Scouts.  That's because they aren't in the Company of the Great Wolf, and hadn't been for the past three editions of the game at that point.  Where the 5th edition codex does mention Wolf Scouts is in the section that details the Wolf Lords (page 16), where we see that Erik Morkai's Great Company "boasts a great many Wolf Scouts, fellow veterans who appreciate their master's taciturn demeanor and no-nonsense approach."  Why would it talk about the Wolf Scouts of Erik Morkai's Great Company (and him being their master) if they were actually in the Company of the Great Wolf?

 

The 7th edition codex uses the same language as the 5th edition codex.

 

First, you are completely ignoring a direct quote that states the Wolf Scouts are part of the Great Wolf's company. 

 

7th edition codex:

pg 19 "This company is host to the Chapter's priesthood - its Wolf Priests, Iron Priests and Rune Priests - and other auxiliary elements."

 

Space Wolf: The Second Omnibus (2007, right between 4th and 5th editions):

pg 266 "Scouts of the Space Wolf Chapter were an odd sort, shunning the standard organizational doctrine of the Space Wolves, serving Russ in a more solitary and isolated way. Like the Priests of Iron, the Great Wolf himself controlled them, dispatching and deploying them wherever he saw a need."

 

Your position is only assumption based on the lack of thoroughness in the codices. I have provided direct quotes that leave absolutely no doubt. If you wish to continue ignoring them just because they do not match what you want then you are free to do so, but it undermines your entire argument.



#14
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights

One last thing before I check out and head to bed.  I don't really understand what your point is with the Codex Chapter Command Squads.  We know that Codex Chapters are nominally 1,000 Marines strong (10 Companies of 100 Men, comprised of 10 Squads).  However, we also know that that figure is nowhere near an accurate count of all of the fighting strength of a Chapter.  Each Battle Company has a bit more than just the 10 core squads of 10 men, including the Captain, his officers, his Command Squad, any auxiliaries and support staff, and vehicle crew.  Somebody once figured out what the true size of a Battle Company would actually be, and also a whole Codex Chapter, but I'm not about to go searching for that right now, and it is interesting but irrelevant to what we're doing here anyway.

 

So, a Battle Company advertises 100 Men, but comes with quite a bit more if you want to measure its true strength and complete an accurate roster.  You've got to include everybody.

 

Now, isn't that what we're trying to do here?  Count everybody?  The Space Wolves don't follow the Codex Astartes, and don't have a target nominal strength to try to meet.  Our Great Companies simply have what they have, and we've been told that they typically have somewhat more men than a Battle Company.  Since we're trying to figure out total Great Company strength (at least discounting the vehicle drivers, for now), then we should be counting every single Marine in the Great Company, and that's what we're doing here.  Counting them all; nobody gets left out.  And guess what, that's exactly what's been done in Curse of the Wulfen, where every single member of the GC rosters for 4 of our Great Companies were provided.  And that's what was done in the 7e Codex and the 7e Supplement, where 2 more rosters were provided.  

 

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to do with your math, where you're subtracting the Wolf Guard out, and then trying to add them back in.  Doesn't make sense to me, especially when we've been told exactly how many Wolf Guard are in 6 of the Great Companies.



#15
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights
"Space Wolf: The Second Omnibus (2007, right between 4th and 5th editions):
pg 266 "Scouts of the Space Wolf Chapter were an odd sort, shunning the standard organizational doctrine of the Space Wolves, serving Russ in a more solitary and isolated way. Like the Priests of Iron, the Great Wolf himself controlled them, dispatching and deploying them wherever he saw a need."

Bulvi, all this quote proves is that the Black Library authors and the Studio writers are out of synch. That's no surprise and has been an enduring problem.

#16
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights

Ok, I'm back up and at it.  I'm going to throw up a few more bits so that other Frater who are reading this thread can evaluate some additional points, and then make up their own minds.

 

Regarding Wolf Scouts

 

Regarding your quote from the latest Ragnar Blackmane novel and the earlier Space Wolves Omnibus - you're right, both of those novels say it exactly as you've stated.  From those publications, the Wolf Scouts would still clearly be in the Company of the Great Wolf.  

 

However, that conflicts with what we've seen in the last three Studio codices, and other Studio background material.  The Studio that created the IP in the first place hasn't had the Scouts in the CotGW since 2nd Edition.  They only ever name the Dreadnoughts and Priests anymore.  The 7th edition version does also include "other auxiliary elements," but nowhere does it state that the Wolf Scout Packs are among those unspecified auxiliary elements.  

 

Where are the Wolf Scouts specifically mentioned in the 7e Codex (and the 5th)?  In Erik Morkai's Great Company.  There is no language in that little paragraph to indicate that they are anything other than his organic units.  

 

I mentioned yesterday that when Jervis Johnson changed the role of the Wolf Scouts he wrote an article about it in WD244, which coincided with the release of the 3rd edition codex.  Because the 3rd edition minidex was light on fluff, much of it was included in WD245 and 246.  In the Wolves of Fenris article from WD246 it says, "In addition to the Great Companies there is the household of the Great Wolf himself, within whose walls dwell the Chapter's priests and Dreadnoughts."  That's it.  No mention of Wolf Scouts whatsoever in the CotGW from this point on in any Studio material.

 

Also in the same article is says, "Wolf Scouts are equipped with lighter weapons and armour than that worn by their battle brothers in the Great Companies."  I read this to state pretty clearly that the Wolf Scouts are now in the Great Companies. 

 

When you think about it, the change between editions make sense.  Initially, Wolf Scouts were the neophytes/recruits with no Black Carapace yet, just like those of all of the Codex Chapters.  The Space Wolves don't have a Scout Company, so they were put in the Chapter headquarters. When the decision to change them from neophytes to full Brothers was made, it made sense to move them over to the regular Great Companies, where they would have already been serving as Blood Claws prior to matriculating into the Wolf Scouts packs.

 

 

So, clearly we have a disconnect between what the Studio writers have provided over the years in their codices and White Dwarf articles, and what some Black Library authors have written in their novels over the years.  If you're going to resolve the conflict then you have to give one side more weight.  It's just my policy, but when we come into these issues, I always give more weight to the Studio; they're the guys that invented the IP, after all.  That's why I feel that I have to disregard some of the Black Library quotes, as you complained about above; clearly both sides can't be "true" at the same time.  You may choose to lend the various Black Library authors more weight; that's completely up to you, and if you do, then by the novels provided by at least two of them, then yeah, the Wolf Scouts are still organic to the CotGW, and the codices have it wrong - Erik Morkai does not, in fact, have any Wolf Scouts in his Great Company. 

 

 

Now you have another issue, though, which is that you've weighted the Black Library material over the Studio, but you're now applying that standard against more Studio material - they've given us some numbers and several rosters, and they're including Wolf Scouts.  

 

The army rosters of at least 6 Great Companies that have very clearly included their Wolf Scout packs.  The 7th edition codex includes 20 Wolf Scouts (Drekka's Nightblades, and Olevec's Deadeyes) that are included in The Company of the Blackmane,  Notably, all of the rosters in the Curse of the Wulfen campaign supplement are laid out in the same way.  There is nothing to indicate in any of those several sources that the Wolf Scouts are on temporary assignment from the CotGW.

 

 

I think there is enough data in your evidence and my (and Vash's) evidence for the rest of the Frater to make up their own minds about whether Wolf Scouts are now in the various GC, or still in the CotGW.

 

Regarding the Great Company Rosters

 

Okay, so on to the second issue at hand, which is what the six army rosters that the GW Studio has provided us in the 7e Codex and Supplement, and the CotW campaign supplement. Each of them provides a roster of various Great Companies at a specific battle, at a specific point in time in the setting.  For now, until we're told otherwise by someone specifically, one has to decide for  themselves whether these rosters account for the full compliment of warriors in those Great Companies at that time, or if they only represent some "slice" of the greater whole.  

 

So, Bulvi's thesis appears to rest on these rosters being an incomplete accounting of the actual Great Companies listed.  It assumes that there are more Space Wolves within those Great Companies that are elsewhere during these campaigns and therefore not included in the rosters as presented.  However, we're never told that is the case.  There's no corroborating evidence to back up that assumption.  In fact, one small piece of data that would counter that assumption is that the lieutenants for most of those Wolf Lords, their Wolf Guard Battle Leaders, are included in the rosters.  If anyone from the Great Company is going to be designated to lead a second, separate detachment pulled out from the men of the Great Company to lead them in a separate battle, it would be the Battle Leader, the Wolf Lords' second in command, and heir apparent.  Finally, the assumption only makes sense if you think the Great Companies are significantly larger than the numbers that we've been provided by those rosters which are as follows:

 

  • Blackmanes at Alaric Prime - 188
  • Brethren of the Great Wolf at Alaric Prime - 200
  • Deathwolves from Curse of the Wulfen - 130
  • Ironwolves from Curse of the Wulfen - 119
  • Firehowlers from Curse of the Wulfen - 148
  • Brethren of the Great Wolf from Curse of the Wulfen - 186
  • Sons of Morkai from Space Marines Battles - 119

 

So, one has to ask themselves, do these numbers seem low, thereby justifying the assumption that not all of the Space Wolves in those Great Companies were present during the campaigns that those provided rosters detail?  Do Great Company sizes ranging from 119 Marines to 200 Marines seem low, given the few snippets that we've been told about the, admittedly flexible, sizes of Great Companies?  Well, we'll just have to reexamine what we've been told about GC sizes:

 

One piece of evidence comes from the IA XI "Doom of Mymeara" sourcebook from Forgeworld.  I'll provide a picture of the relevant quote:

 

 

gallery_23369_1556_39813.png

 

*Apologies for the huge pic.  

 

As you can see for yourselves, one source says that Bran Redmaw is a Wolf Lord and Chieftain of a Great Company of "up to 200 Space Wolves warriors."  Does that fit in with our range of 119 to 200 Marines as provided by the rosters?  Yeah, it's definitely on the upper end, but it isn't completely out of bounds for what we've been given.  Furthermore, it does say "up to" not that Bran currently has that many warriors; it merely suggests that 200 Space Wolves is about the upper limit of a Great Company - which is exactly what we see from the roster for Logan Grimnar's own Great Company, which we know to be the largest, so no surprises here.  Once again, it is all as expected, if one assumes that the rosters are complete, and not a mere slice of the whole.

 

Our second bit of evidence on the proper total size of one of the largest Great Companies (Ragnar's, which has been specified to be the second largest, right behind Logan's) comes from the 5th edition codex.  I provided the quote above, but will provide it again here:  "The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all."

 

Yet again, we see that the "almost 200" number matches up very nicely with the more precise 188 men provided in the roster.  Clearly, everything fits in nicely - it's almost as if the Studio team knew what they were doing and planned it all out.  It's all very clean until you start making assumptions that the Great Companies must actually be much larger than the "almost 200" provided for Ragnar and the "up to 200" provided for Bran.  The thing is, although we have these two data points for Great Company sizes (discounting the rosters themselves which are in question in this section), we don't have any data whatsoever to suggest larger Great Company sizes.  There is nothing, anywhere, that I (or brother Vash) is aware of that suggests the 119 to 200 Marine range is too small.  Go look for it yourself - It simply doesn't exist.  

 

 

So, one would have to ignore the two data points (Ragnar and Bran) that we have from the Studio and Forgeworld, in order to suggest that the rosters are incomplete.  Back when the 5th edition codex was new, and we were having these discussion on this forum, some Frater argued that the battle-hardened adjective in that description of this Company had additional meaning, and therefore Ragnar's 200 warriors must not have included his very many Blood Claws packs.  Other Frater pointed out that even the Blood Claws could be considered battle-hardened, as they also campaigned and fought in battles with the rest of the Great Company's packs, and that they were already battle-hardened even as Fenrisian youths when they were chosen to ascend to the Space Wolves by the Choosers of the Valiant, who picked those young candidates from the littered battlefields of Fenrisian tribal conflicts.

 

The debate went on for quite some time, actually, up until the 7th edition codex showed us Ragnar's 188 men, and the Champions of Fenris supplement showed us Logan's 200 men, and the Doom of Mymeara showed us Bran's "up to" 200 men.  It was at that point that those who had invested some great significance of the battle-hardened line realized, for the most part, that the line wasn't intended to be some discriminator to separate packs that counted and packs that didn't, but was inclusive of all of the deadly warriors of Ragnar's Great Company.

 

 

I'll have a little bit more to say later about the idea that the Wolf Lord's pack-mates, his Wolf Guard, should not be counted among the members of his Great Company.  I touched on it a bit in an earlier post, but have to go for now.

 

V

 



#17
NightHowler

NightHowler

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 585 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas, TX
  • Chapter Name: The Hand at the Gate
One of the things I used to love about 40k that doesn't seem to be emphasized as much in recent fluff is that the contradiction, redaction inaccuracies, and missing information was explained by the vagaries of warp travel, the point of view of the scribes, and the sheer size of the history being recorded; and that even information held to be a "true account" by imperial standards could have hundreds of iterations, all different, and all held to be true by some department in the imperial beuracracies. It meant that any home brew fluff I came up with could be just as valid as cannon as long as it seemed plausible in "some version" of the universe.

When I first started playing this game (late 90s), I never would have thought we would get real numbers for the space wolves (or black templars for that matter). If they ever try to give us a "number" for the lost companies I'll choose to disregard it as "one version" of the universe - that's what I do with the numbers they've given us for the great companies.

Edited by NightHowler, 20 May 2017 - 04:44 PM.

  • Valerian likes this

"By the River fettered Fenrir will lie till draws nigh the doom of the Gods." - Frey, Lokasenna: 41


#18
Vash113

Vash113

    ++ SCRIPTOR CLASSIARIUM ++

  • + LEXICANIUM +
  • 5,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arlington, Virginia

 

There is also no proof that the strike forces did not exist. You are throwing out my point and then proceeding to make an equally insubstantial claim. Also, see the proof I provided regarding Wolf Scouts. Taking them out of that list leaves Ragnar with only 168 men, invalidating that list as proof of his company's strength.

 

Your argument is just not logical. You claim something exists without evidence just because it might exist and then use it as justification for another assumption. You assume a secondary strike force must exist and then use that as evidence that the listed strength cannot be the full strength of the company. This is simply nonsensical, you cannot use an unproven claim to prove an assertion.

 

Furthermore your assertion that Wolf Scouts do not count towards the total strength of the company is also nonsensical and unproven. Valerian has already given some considerable argumentation in direct contravention of your claim that Wolf Scouts are still seconded from the Company of the Great Wolf. However even if we take your assertion as true, that they are still part of the company of the Great Wolf and are then seconded to the companies it does not then follow that these seconded force elements are not counted towards the total standing strength of each Great Company. You assume this to be the case without evidence. Given that no mention of the strengths of the companies specify that these numbers discount seconded forces there is no logical reason to assume that this is the case.

​Further even if we do remove the Wolf Scouts from the total strength of Ragnar's company that still does not then justify the belief that the company is larger than shown. 168 may well be the full strength of the Blackmanes as of the Battle of Alaric Prime, casualties may simply have overtaken the rate of induction for the Blackmanes and resulted in a company somewhat smaller than previously mentioned.

 

Yet again you are basing a conclusion on a tottering tower of assumption supporting assumption supporting more assumptions. You suppose that Wolf Scouts are still part of the Company of the Great Wolf despite no support for this conclusion in the current codex material, then you assume that if this is the case they must then not be counted in the standing strength of the Great Companies, then you further assume that without counting the Wolf Scouts then the Blackmane Great Company appears smaller than previously mentioned and thus, because secondary strike forces are possible, that they must therefore exist and put the total strength of the Blackmanes higher than listed.

 

Assumption supporting assumption supporting assumption and all of it completely and willfully ignoring any and all evidence to the contrary. This is simply not logical or supported by evidence.

 

I included the potential numbers from the formations simply as an alternative. I never stated that I agreed with that number, in fact I suggested a lower one. The only purpose there was to show GW leaving the possibility open in their own work for the chapter to be much larger than many assume it to be.

 

Rules formations have never been expressly intended to represent fluff formations, certainly not when exploded to their absolute size. I fully understand why you made the argument, I simply disagree with the very premise of the point you were trying to make, hence why I responded.

 

Yes you do not have to respond to everything and can respond how you wish, but I am also free to respond when I feel my position has been misrepresented.

 

Your position was clearly and obviously not misrepresented, I chose only to respond to a single sub-point of your post, not the whole thing. Given that the segment of your post I responded to was completely removed from the remainder of the arguments in your post I did not represent your remaining arguments in any way, let alone misrepresent them. But now that you won't let it go then lets crack into the rest of your repeated claims that Valerian has already done a good job of debunking.

 

 

To the first point let us use Ragnar Blackmane as the example. 187 warriors to start. He loses more than 20 in Legacy of Russ. More than twice that in Wrath of Magnus. Scores more in the newest Ragnar Blackmane novel. Even after all of that it says he has 51 warriors you make it out of the ruined cadian city they were fighting in. That matches the descriptions roughly of the casualties suffered including several full packs being wiped out. Yet in the final chapter of that book he calls for more of his warriors to deploy from orbit. This reveals that his Great Company is actually noticeably stronger than the 187 depicted. The second example is the Firehowlers. I will not detail all of it here, but I took the time to calculate how many casualties his company suffers in the books, and it exceeds the starting strength depicted in Curse of the Wulfen by a significant margin. There is no way his company could go through the fighting in the Fenris system and the 13th Black Crusade, and yet still have 56 men able to fight in Fall of Cadia. Not unless the total strength of his company is much higher.

 

Again you have presented a series of arguments based on assumptions made without evidence. First and foremost you misrepresent the novel, Ragnar does not call more of his warriors from orbit, rather this is what the book says:

Over the coming days, the jarl's warriors would be rearmed, resupplied and reinforced from the Einherjar fleet in orbit.

 

It does not even remotely specify what those reinforcements would be or from whom. You assume reinforcements must represent fresh troops from the Blackmanes and thus indicate the company was larger than initially shown but there is really no evidence to support that assertion. Rather it is not only possible but far more likely that those reinforcements represent extracted wounded returning to the field, armory and priesthood assets, 13th Company Wulfen packs or even fresh packs of Blood Claws from Fenris. No specifics are given and thus we cannot assume anything of their nature, disposition or origin.

 

You further make assumptions about the Firehowlers and again do so without evidence. Even if we assume that all listed casualties are fatalities (which is highly unlikely) then it still does not follow that the total strength of the company is greater than listed. At the very least it might indicate that the Fire howlers were reinforced with additional Blood Claw packs. You seem to assume that secondary deployments of the company (mysteriously never mentioned or even alluded to) returned and reinforced the company while simultaneously ignoring the very obvious alternative of fresh reinforcement from Fenris. Further it should be noted that there is a very significant difference between casualty and fatality, most Space Marine casualties are only temporarily disabled and will return to the field in short order, only rarely is a wounded marine rendered unable to return to fighting fitness. Then there is the obvious rogue variable of the Wulfen, which have returned to the chapter in their hundreds and been scattered among the companies by order of the Great Wolf himself. While the force dispositions shown in Curse of the Wulfen indicate the strengths of the companies at the start of the invasion of Fenris without including the recovered Wulfen packs it is entirely possible that the numbers listed in Fall of Cadia include the small numbers of surviving Wulfen assigned to the Firehowlers. Given that there is a timeframe of months between the start of the Curse of the Wulfen and the events in the Fall of Cadia it is nonsensical to ignore the possibility of reinforcement by fresh recruits, Wulfen and returning wounded as an element of the fluctuating strengths of the Great Companies.

 

You are choosing to willfully ignore evidence that disproves your assumption, not an uncommon practice among 40k fans.

 

Seriously? People in glass houses should not throw stones, pot and kettle here man.

 

Do you realize you directly contradicted yourself there? Each Codex company is 10 squads of 10 marines each, 100 men. The 10  companies make up 1000 battle brothers, with the command squads and honor guard never being included in the calculation. Also, I am not making an assumption regarding the Wolf Guard. I have been, in person, by 3 different Black Library authors that the Wolf Guard are considered outside of the standard strength just like a codex honor guard.

 

Firstly Black Library authors personal statements do not canon fluff make, not to mention that as a personal anecdote nothing in that statement can be verified. Secondly the Space Wolves have frequently been noted to "owe nothing" to the codex astartes, including its organizational doctrines. Nowhere in any of the codexes or even any of the written fluff is it ever stated that Wolf Guard fall outside the organizational structure of each company and are not considered in the tally of company strength. Drawing a comparison to codex chapter organization proves nothing given that it has absolutely no bearing or similarity to the structure of the Space Wolf Great Companies.  

 

Sorry to burst your bubble on the Wolf Scouts but you are completely wrong. They are still part of the Great Wolf's comapny and it has never been retconned. In fact in the Ragnar Blackmane novel, the latest Space Wolf publication, it says "Jarl,' the Scout greeted him. Not My jarl. The Scouts walked beyond the borders of the twelve Great Companies, beholden only to the orders of High King Grimnar." page 110.

 

Frankly this is the only solid evidence you have yet provided for this claim, quoting the 2nd Edition Codex and Omnibus as you do later is not evidence, outdated and later contradicted sources are not evidence. In this case however Black Library sources do not contravene codex sources in terms of what is and is not canon, the seventh edition codex and campaign books do not support this claim. I like ADB as a writer but he's far from perfect in his representation and accuracy with the fluff.

​Further even if we do take this claim as true it still does not logically stand that seconded Wolf Scouts aren't counted in the tally of a Great Company's strength. So while you may consider this proof of the first half of your claim, the second half remains utterly unsubstantiated.  

 

Admittedly the potential for other strike forces is not the strongest piece of evidence, but it is still evidence building on the others.

 

Please reread my calculations, I never made any numbers up. Average great comapany is 100-150 men, then add Wolf Guard and attached scouts and lone wolves etc to make 125-175 with an average of 150 for simplicity's sake. 200 for Ragnar plus the Wolf Guard etc. for 250 (larger company can support more guard and needs more scouts for support). 200 for Grimnar who we know has many more Wolf Guard than the others to make 300.

 

Yes you have made those numbers up. 200 is the maximum ever mentioned for the total strength of a modern Great Company, whether in the codex, Doom of Mymeara or anywhere else. Nowhere in the fluff do we have any specific mention of a Great Company fielding more than two hundred warriors under its direct aegis. Putting the CoF at 300 is simply not supported by any material evidence what so ever. As mentioned Wolf Guard and Scouts are not listed outside the strengths of the companies and even if they nominally were for chapter organizational purposes that does not mean that when we are told that at two hundred strong the CoF are the largest company in that chapter that this does not include Wolf Guard and Scouts. It would be nonsensical for every character and blurb to reference the Great Company strengths as only what exactly belongs to them individually on paper and not as their fighting strength stands including seconded elements. Once again you use assumption piled onto assumption used to justify more assumption.  

 

1. "battle hardened warriors" that would not include the Blood Claws so you probably shouldn't use that to support your point.

 

Blood Claws are taken from the red fields of battle, by definition every recruit to the chapter is battle hardened, this phrase does not necessarily exclude any Space Wolves, even Blood Claws.

 

2. The list for Alaric Prime includes the Wolf Scouts. I have already demonstrated how they do not count towards his 200 so you still have no proof as that would leave his company well below 200.

 

You have not demonstrated that, you have assumed that based on extremely evidence and reasoning. Even if Wolf Scouts are not counted as directly part of Ragnar Blackmane's official command on paper this still does not prove they aren't included in the total estimation of his company strength. Assumption, assumption.

 

3. Yes Logan's is the largest, but again there is no evidence to prove that shows his full Great Company, merely an assumption on your part.

 

And assumption on yours that it doesn't show his full Great Company, you cannot disprove assumption with assumption, and you certainly can't prove an affirmative claim with assumption and not evidence. We have no evidence to indicate that the listed strength is not the entire strength of the Champions of Fenris and this is further collaborated by repeated snippets of the total strength of the CoF as around two hundred warriors. To claim the company is larger than that requires substantial evidence to support it, evidence I have not seen.

 

4. Please provide page number as I cannot find "up to" in my copy. You are assuming that they are limited to only 200 men based on that, a serious logical fallacy.

 

You think "up to" does not roughly equate to "no more than" and believing so is a logical fallacy? Really? No, it is entirely logical to read "up to 200" as roughly equivalent to "no more than 200" as both statements are functionally identical. If someone told you to take up to two hundred marbles and you took two hundred and one you would have taken more than allowed, if someone told you to take no more than two hundred marbles and you took two hundred and one you would also have taken more than allowed. 

 

5. I forget which book it was in but I believe it has been stated before that Morkai's company is on the small side, but those numbers include the scouts, refer to proof of that problem above.

 

Valerian and I have both shown substantial evidence to counter your scout "proof," however even if we did take Scouts to still be seconded from the Company of the Great Wolf there is still no evidence provided that they aren't included in the standing strengths of the Great Companies. Yes Morkai's Great Company is on the small side at 119 strong, given that only the Ironwolves are shown to have fewer total members at 100 strong this entirely fits.

 

The vehicle crews are stated on a number of occasions as being Grey Hunters. I included them in the numbers I added in the estimation of Great Company sizes, thus why Ragnar's increased from 200 to 250 between them the guard and any other anomalous forces.

 

We do not know for certain from where the vehicle crews hail, they may be seconded from the armory but they may also be drawn from the standing packs of the Company. We do not have definitive evidence to suggest that the crews would actually add to the strength of the company. Only chapter-level vehicles are certainly not drawn from the standing companies, gunship pilots who are mostly Iron Priests are certainly drawn from the armory and could be added to the total strength of the chapter but on the company level we just don't know. Assuming that they and other elements increase the size of the Blackmanes by over 25% of their maximum listed strength is illogical in the extreme.

 

 

First, you are completely ignoring a direct quote that states the Wolf Scouts are part of the Great Wolf's company. 

 

7th edition codex:

pg 19 "This company is host to the Chapter's priesthood - its Wolf Priests, Iron Priests and Rune Priests - and other auxiliary elements."

 

Space Wolf: The Second Omnibus (2007, right between 4th and 5th editions):

pg 266 "Scouts of the Space Wolf Chapter were an odd sort, shunning the standard organizational doctrine of the Space Wolves, serving Russ in a more solitary and isolated way. Like the Priests of Iron, the Great Wolf himself controlled them, dispatching and deploying them wherever he saw a need."

 

Your position is only assumption based on the lack of thoroughness in the codices. I have provided direct quotes that leave absolutely no doubt. If you wish to continue ignoring them just because they do not match what you want then you are free to do so, but it undermines your entire argument.

 

 

The one making assumptions here is you Bulvi, "other auxiliary elements" does not equate Wolf Scouts, and the Omnibus (a reprint whose contents were published even earlier) is now 10 years old, ten years. We have had at least two more codexes since then which make no mention of Wolf Scouts as belonging to the company of the great wolf. Again this is an affirmative claim, you claim (without evidence I might add) that they are still part of the Company of the Great Wolf, something that was expressly and clearly stated in previous material but has been absent from the current fluff for over a decade. Evidence to the contrary however is considerable, we have the same material as before when referencing the chapter's Dreadnoughts, Wolf Priests, Iron Priests and Rune Priests but not Wolf Scouts, we have force dispositions for half of the Chapter's Great Companies that notably and pointedly includes Wolf Scouts in their number. Page 27 of the 7th edition codex specifically says the Company of the Blackmane and includes fully twenty Wolf Scouts in its number, as members, of the company of the Blackmane. This is about as definitive as you can get and certainly is not invalidated by the 2nd ed Codex and 10 year old Black Library material.

 

To sum up we have no canon fluff indicating that Wolf Guard aren't part of the standing strength of a Great Company, further even if we assume Wolf Scouts are still seconded from the Company of the Great Wolf we still also have no evidence that Wolf Scouts, or Wolf Guard, are also not still counted as part of the total standing strength of the Great Companies. Nor do we have evidence of the vehicle crews not being drawn from the standing Grey Hunters of the Great Companies and thus not adding to their strength. Nor do we have any evidence that the listed dispositions of the Great Companies as shown are not the total standing strength of those formations, we have no evidence of existing secondary deployments, or not-counted elements of any kind.

 

Which all boils down to this, using assumption to justify further assumptions and use those assumed conclusions as the basis for yet more assumptions all of which are then used to conclude that great companies are up to 50% larger than any material supports it is no surprise that Valerian and I would naturally have a problem with that. You are a number of steps from proving even the most foundational of your assertions, let alone the conclusions and further assumptions you then draw from those foundations.


"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?"
"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
-1st Captain Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Captain of the Luna Wolves 2nd Company.

Comprehensive History Archive


#19
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights

Vash, that's a good point about that second Omnibus.  It was published in, like, 2009 I think but the individual books that comprised that trilogy were published in 2002, 2004, and 2005.  That means the first book (Wolfblade) was published before Jervis Johnson had designed the 3rd edition codex and moved the Wolf Scouts, and the second book (Sons of Fenris) was already being written when the change was made.  It's really no surprise that Lee Lightner missed the change, as he was basing his work on Bill Kings' earlier (2nd edition era) material.

 

AD-B's much more recent Ragnar Blackmane book, published just a few months ago, doesn't have that excuse, though, so we'll need to give him a hard time about that.



#20
Bulvi Nightbane

Bulvi Nightbane

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15 posts

Vash, that's a good point about that second Omnibus.  It was published in, like, 2009 I think but the individual books that comprised that trilogy were published in 2002, 2004, and 2005.  That means the first book (Wolfblade) was published before Jervis Johnson had designed the 3rd edition codex and moved the Wolf Scouts, and the second book (Sons of Fenris) was already being written when the change was made.  It's really no surprise that Lee Lightner missed the change, as he was basing his work on Bill Kings' earlier (2nd edition era) material.

 

AD-B's much more recent Ragnar Blackmane book, published just a few months ago, doesn't have that excuse, though, so we'll need to give him a hard time about that.

The second Omnibus was published in 2009. Sons of Fenris, where the quote is from, was published in 2007.



#21
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights
Thanks for the correction; the wiki site I went to check the date had it wrong. By that point the authors don't have as much of an excuse for getting it wrong, too, then.

#22
Leif Bearclaw

Leif Bearclaw

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,089 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves

 

As you can see for yourselves, one source says that Bran Redmaw is a Wolf Lord and Chieftain of a Great Company of "up to 200 Space Wolves warriors." 
 

 

Interesting point to note, while it may be a typo (but then the original may also be the typo), the republished Doom of Mymeara 2nd edition does not have 'up to' in its version of that passage, specifically saying Bran commands a Company of 200.

 

Also, as for the ADB Ragnar quote, that really seems a spurious basis for the claim that Scouts aren't part of the Great Companies. Is a Scout (the least social and gregarious of Wolves, a Chapter with an established level of irreverence and informality towards authority at the best of time) not taking the time to say 'my' really being held up as conclusive proof he wasn't in Blackmane's Company?



#23
A D-B

A D-B

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,287 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:N. Ireland.

There's no right answer. I wish there was, but what's worth bearing in mind is that this is all very, very... fluid. If you're looking for specific facts on Company size, my best advice is: Don't. 

 

I've had work emails from very high sources that say categorically that there's literally no way the Space Wolves could really exceed 1,000 Marines, and that some Great Companies are only 40+ Marines (still a force capable of wrecking face, lore-wise, of course). I've had others that say there actually has to be Successor Chapters of the Wolves, somewhere. Some have said the reason for no Successors in Battle of the Fang is a good angle but not the real one, others have said it's fine and it's the one to stick with. 

 

The Space Wolves are just.. kinda nebulous like this. When you see "Ragnar's Great Company" in a codex, with all the squads listed, it's just a snapshot in time. That's not his Great Company. That's his Great Company that day, on that battle. It will change over the course of the campaign, day to day, with casualties, let alone from campaign to campaign as he gains and loses honour, as he becomes an attractive prospect to serve or loses his personal clout, etc.

 

Regarding the Wolf Scout thing, the debate here is over a technicality. I wanted a classic feel to the story in Ragnar Blackmane rather than the latest codex (just like my Black Legion stuff), so I based the feel and vibe on the 3rd Edition Codex. Wolf Scouts are mentioned there as a separate entity, answerable only to the Great Wolf, not permanently part of any Great Company (but, by virtue of their position, being the Great Wolf's warriors - and his alone - unless assigned elsewhere).

 

EDIT: It might also(?) have been from one of the many emails of "Actually, it works like this" that I got somewhere along the line. It's tough to remember when you read/talk about this stuff 24/7. Half of my Black Legion/Chaos/Abaddon lore has never been explicitly printed in the detail it has in my inbox. It's surreal.

 

Don't get me wrong, guys and girls, I can appreciate the desire for definitive answers as much as anyone, but where the Wolves are concerned that's practically impossible. So when the "Please come to this thread because you're right/wrong" messages start hitting my inbox, there's not really much I can do when it comes to the Wolves. There's stuff in the current codex that categorically goes against what various IP officers have told me is true. There's stuff that's not mentioned, or explained weirdly to me. There's stuff I was told wasn't true, which I was then told was. This is just who the Wolves are. Every newest codex, which reads as a source of definite answers to the readership, ends up being endlessly debated and disagreed with in minor but cool ways behind the scenes, regarding how it ties into the myth of the Chapter. You take what you like from it, you ignore the bits you don't, and so on. It is what it is.


Edited by A D-B, 21 May 2017 - 01:08 PM.

  • Lord Ragnarok, Valerian, Wolf Guard Dan and 1 other like this
Note: Everything I say is my own personal opinion as hobbyist, a novelist, and the world's slowest painter. It's not intended to reflect back on Games Workshop in any professional context.

 

Blog - Facebook - Twitter

 


#24
jbickb

jbickb

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Arizona, USA
A D-B you are a gentleman and a scholar. I appreciate your work work and willingness to weigh in.

Is there a particular reason for all the vagueness with space wolves? Are there other chapters with such vagueness? I honestly like that aspect of the wolves but I always wondered why they were shrouded in mystery the way they are.

Thanks again I love that you are willing to speak to us and help our dialogues with your insight.

Edited by jbickb, 21 May 2017 - 02:24 PM.

Never Mistake:
My Silence for Ignorance
My Calmness for Acceptance
My Kindness for Weakness

#25
Valerian

Valerian

    ++ EQUITES ALATUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 8,236 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Boone, North Carolina
  • Chapter Name: Space Wolves and Grey Knights
Aaron,
 
Thanks a ton for coming in here and providing your valuable perspective; it means a lot that you did.
 

When you see "Ragnar's Great Company" in a codex, with all the squads listed, it's just a snapshot in time. That's not his Great Company. That's his Great Company that day, on that battle. It will change over the course of the campaign, day to day, with casualties, let alone from campaign to campaign as he gains and loses honour, as he becomes an attractive prospect to serve or loses his personal clout, etc.


And that's exactly what Vash and I have been trying to say. That was what those Great Companies looked like at that time in the setting. We all know that Space Wolves Great Companies are very fluid - that's a core part of their fluff, as well.
 

Regarding the Wolf Scout thing, the debate here is over a technicality. I wanted a classic feel to the story in Ragnar Blackmane rather than the latest codex (just like my Black Legion stuff), so I based the feel and vibe on the 3rd Edition Codex. Wolf Scouts are mentioned there as a separate entity, answerable only to the Great Wolf, not permanently part of any Great Company (but, by virtue of their position, being the Great Wolf's warriors - and his alone - unless assigned elsewhere).


Appreciate that perspective, as well. I'm not actually seeing that anywhere in the 3rd edition codex, however. Don't suppose you can provide a page number for that reference?
 

There's stuff in the current codex that categorically goes against what various IP officers have told me is true. There's stuff that's not mentioned, or explained weirdly to me. There's stuff I was told wasn't true, which I was then told was. This is just who the Wolves are. Every newest codex, which reads as a source of definite answers to the readership, ends up being endlessly debated and disagreed with in minor but cool ways behind the scenes, regarding how it ties into the myth of the Chapter. You take what you like from it, you ignore the bits you don't, and so on. It is what it is.


Ooh, now that's very interesting. I wonder what some of those bits are. I know, of course, they've messed up Jorin Bloodfang's name for the last two codexes. Wonder what else is off.


Once again, thanks for taking the invitation to take a look and weigh in; that is greatly appreciated.

Best,

V

Edited by Valerian, 21 May 2017 - 04:14 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users