Defensively, 10 foot vets are superior to an entire platoon.

[Otto von Bludd]

For the points that is. I will show you why, but I want to be debated on this because I've been thinking a lot about if platoons are ever a better choice than foot vets for a defensive infantry unit (within the paramaters I will lay out).  This may seem counter intuitive but hear me out.  Consider it something to talk about until 8th comes.

 

This comparision does assume that you are running a CAD or AD and do not want more than 6 units of troops.  If you do, Platoons are obviously superior because you can easily run more than 6 units of infantry without another detachement and the HQ tax it will incur.  I think most lists however, baring a pure infantry list, would not run more than 6 units of troops so this should be quite relevant to most guard players.

 

The reasoning

 

 

Units involved:

 

10 Foot vets with Forward sentries - 70 points.

 

20 man blob (minimum platoon) + PCS (we will ignore the PCS for now as it is a tax) - 130 points.

 

 

Scenario 1 - VS shooting.

 

Let us ignore the BS difference (which makes vets totally superior shooters).  Both the 20 man platoon blob and the 10 man vet squad are deployed defensively in cover, a ruin.  Platoon cover saves on a 4+, Vets on a 3+.  You take 12 bolter wounds, for example.  Saves are made and 6 guards die vs 4 vets. 30 points lost vs 28.  "Yes true, the vets absorb fire slightly more effeciently, but the Platoon has staying power due to having 20 men vs 10".  Not if you go to ground, which we can do with nearly no penalty thanks to our orders.  After going to ground vs 12 bolter wounds, the guards lose 4 men and the vets lose 2.  If we assume they keep taking wounds at the same rate, the vet unit will be wiped out at the exact same time as the guard unit (5 rounds of 12 bolter wounds per round).  Those 10 vets, gone to ground, will last exactly as long as those 20 guardsmen gone to ground BUT those vets are BS4 which is a tremendous boon AND you only paid 70 points for them vs 130 for the platoon.  Now factor in that you can take 20 forward sentry veterans for 10 points more than 1 platoon and fulfill your "troop tax".  10 points buys you 20 forward sentry vets who will survive much longer than your 20 guardsmen AND shoot better AND fulfill your troop tax.

 

Scenario 2 - VS melee.

 

20 guardsmen vs 10 forward sentry veterans.  They are charged and by a unit with 20 attacks base and 10  more because of the charge.  For simplicity lets say all attacks hit and 50% of them wound.  The guardsmen take 30 hits and 15 wounds.  The vets however, due to forward sentry snare mines (which negate the charge bonus due to forcing a disordered charge), only take 20 hits and then 10 wounds.  By negating the extra charge attacks, the vets actually tank the wounds better than the guardsmen, as (let us assume they have no save since this will make the math easier for me and their armor saves are identical anyway) you just lost 75 points of guardsmen vs 70 points of vets. 

 

Now if your goal is simply to tarpit the platoon wins out because it will last longer.  But if your goal is to speedbump a charge and have your unit die so you can blast the attacker the next turn the vets win by a MILE.  Not only will the enemy be more likely to charge them due to their superior resilience to shooting per point compared to a platoon, but they will likely die in a single turn of combat leaving their assailants open to the emperor's fiery retribution. 

 

TLDR Conclusion:

 

In a scenario where you want between 2-6 units of troops (almost always?) to sit in cover in order to absorb shooting and speedbump enemy melee threats forward sentry vets are much more point efficient and survivable than the same amount of points worth of guardsmen.  The vets also have the added bonus of being far superior shooters themselves, and will likely die in a single turn of melee leaving the enemy open.  On top of this, you can get away with spending only 140 points on the vets in a CAD should you want minimum troops, vs 260 points you must spend on platoons.

 

Thus concludes my stream of consciousness.  My battlefield experience seems to support my position here too; my vets are always a tremendous nuisance to the enemy not only with their resilience to shooting but the shooting they also put out out at BS4.  My platoons are always nearly irrelevant without investing a tremendous amount of points into priests, commissars, psychers and so forth to buff them.  What do you think soldier?  Have I convinced you to abandon your blobs for foot vets, or were you already doing it?

[MithrilForge]

A very interesting and enlightening read....for this edition and if i were to go to a tourney right now, that's probably what i'd take....

Hopefully all this will be turned on it's head for 8th Ed ! so we have about one month to go correct?....

Cheers, Mithril

[WarriorFish]

I can see someone isn't a scientist As mithril said we're soon approaching 8th so things are likely to all change!

[joschlumpf]

The problem I see with this comparison is, that if you ignore the usefullness of the PCS, then you should also ignore their costs.

 

20 Guardsmen cost 100 points but using double the amount of flashlights!

 

(Yeah that doesn´t make them better, I still hope 8th will make IG the strongest army after sisters XD)

[spafe]

Also why blob if you are hoping to just take up space (which is all a unit with flashlights does).... the 20 man blob could be 2 10 man units... meaning the combat example stops being fair as even with snare mines, the veterans are wiped out to a man and the guard cap at 50 points lost as they run out of bodies to maim.

 

The other thing I think I disagree with in your premise is the go to ground then getting up again using orders... how many orders do you have? if you have 6 units of vets that's a lot to order back to a fight rather than (for instance), 2 blobs of 30 guys. So while blobs/normal guard require investment in other ways, multiple units of vets require more investment in order givers?

 

Not saying your wrong, and you've said it plays for you on the table top... but I think some of these assumptions are very biased towards creating that result which I don't think gives a full enough picture.

[Captain_Krash]

I'm not sure why you view the PCS as a tax? Considering how useful there load out can be to seriously out perform the veterans themselves. Orders, special weapons/heavy weapons/orders. Not to mention taking special weapons squads or heavy weapon teams still out weigh the fire power potential of an entire platoon. In a vacuum I think your right. But I've never had an opponent look across the board at 100+ guardsmen and think oh this will be a cake walk. Physiologically a guard player should usually already have beaten them before the first turn.

 

Krash

[NatBrannigan]

It's all about the orders / Priests / Psychic powers really. These are what make Blobs so useful. One 30 man squad (my go to size at the moment) can be affected by a single Prescience power, given additional shots with a single FRFSRF order and won't be running anywhere with the addition of a single Commissar. Then the PCS is very useful, not a tax! Give them all flamers and they're dangerous, and it's another source of orders.

 

The same points value of vets in their individual units would need two or three Psychic powers / Commissars / successful orders to get them all fighting as effectively as possible.

[P3AKHOUR]

I run vets because I hate painting infantry and I have to customize everything.  In saying that, I played a game allied with a friend where I bought 20 geared up mech vets with special weapons and grenadiers/forward sentries, he bought 80 bodies worth of blobs and conscripts.  It might be my bias but vs marines, the sheer weight of fire of those 80 bodies was wholly underwhelming in terms of marines dropped, whereas my vets absolutely did work.   I haven't done the math as you can tell, but my totally unscientific feeling is that those 80 bodies aimed too wildly and died too quickly to be of any real use in the game.  In saying that, the psychological effect of those 80 bodies really worked for area denial up until our opponent learnt he could pretty much walk straight up to them and only lose a couple of marines. 

[Shamansky]

all those calculations are true... for spheric guardsmen in vacuum.

add 'ignores cover' to the math and face results

[NatBrannigan]

I find my Blobs (max 30 bodies, and the most I've run is 2 at a time) to be VERY whelming with just a little help. A couple of orders and the number of shots increases big time (and there happen to be two PCS's attached to those Platoons). One of my Platoons has a Commissar but the other usually has an attached Inquisitor, so that's Prescience as well. That's a lot of shooty.

 

I actually find my Vets to be a bit underwhelming but I strongly suspect that's me using them wrong.

[Shamansky]

You take vets to bring on the table good ballistic pack of melta or plasma. It is either vets or CCS. So i think thats a waste of points to take vets with lasguns to be your deploy guard. They must be some where else shooting enemie's shiny toys.

[NatBrannigan]

10 in a Taurox (I just like how they look!!), 3 Melta guns is what I go for. I know I'm not using them particularly well so I'm not saying that Vets are a poor choice at all, just that mine need a more competent commander.

[Cap'm Heckus]

1 platoon (even if bought naked) can hold up to 3 objectives or screen 3 tanks at the same time. It can essentially give itself orders. It allows you to take conscripts (which are an even better tarpit), special weapon squads, and (somewhat less exciting) heavy weapons teams.

 

Yes, all these things cost points but they open up a lot of tactical options.

[Shamansky]

10 in a Taurox (I just like how they look!!), 3 Melta guns is what I go for. I know I'm not using them particularly well so I'm not saying that Vets are a poor choice at all, just that mine need a more competent commander.

I was not arguing you comrade. Actually i tried to support your point. We all are going to find our lack of competence disturbing soon. So no worries.

[NatBrannigan]

I keep changing my mind with them... They'll be happily driving towards a nice juicy tank then something will appear and I divert them to take care of that, then something else will appear etc etc. I don't know why I keep doing it!.

 

Out of interest, does anyone have good results with a forward sentries Vet squad? Say Camo cloaks, Auto cannon and special weapons to taste behind an Aegis? Maybe even Sgt Harker?

[Shamansky]

I keep changing my mind with them... They'll be happily driving towards a nice juicy tank then something will appear and I divert them to take care of that, then something else will appear etc etc. I don't know why I keep doing it!.

 

Out of interest, does anyone have good results with a forward sentries Vet squad? Say Camo cloaks, Auto cannon and special weapons to taste behind an Aegis? Maybe even Sgt Harker?

Well it is usual thing when a plan of battle doesn't survive meeting the battle.

 

I wanted to test a squad of sentries vets with sniper rifles heavy bolter and Harker once. All heavy weapons are 36". And bring pretty nice amount of anti-infantry shots. But i don't remember what stopped me. May be the cost of it. May be the lack of infantry in my meta where you would rather meet a pack of high toughness monster creatures or a duo/trio of gargantuans.