The future of Scouts

[NiceGuyAdi]

I'd best preface this by saying I'm aware no one can actually know the answer to this, yet, unless you work deep inside GW. But since I started work on a Tactical squad the other day, I've been wondering how they'll shape up against Scouts in 8th edition.

 

I know a lot of people have been treating Tacticals as a necessary tax to unlock formation benefits, including the Pinion Demi Co/Talon Strike Force, but now this looks set to disappear, being replaced with mandatory/limited troop type choices in the new detachments. So that would make Tacticals look set to become redundant when you could take Scouts, but a lot of what I'm reading makes me think Tacticals are about to become better, so maybe they'll be more than just a tax unit.

 

I'm just wondering what Raven Guard players are feeling on this as we lurk in the darkness waiting for GW to turn on the great illuminating light to bathe us all in the glow of its new edition? Do you reckon you'll be building armies around Tacticals as the building block of all Space Marine chapters, or are you looking forward to being free to take Scouts en masse?

[Halandaar]

I think you hit the nail on the head straight out with this; we just don't know. 

 

The one thing we do know that the new Rending stat means Power Armour is going to be more effective than Scout Armour against the vast majority of weapons, rather than just AP4 weapons as is the case now. 

 

But the rest is all unknowns; we don't know if Scouts are staying at WS/BS 4 as they are now, or going back to 3. We don't know what equipment options they'll have*, or what kind of special deployment rules they might have, or how much they're actually going to cost compared to Tacticals. We don't know if Chapter Tactics is going to work as it is now; you might be able to field Telion and get some Scout bonuses. We don't know if Korvydae is getting new FW rules that would benefit Scouts. 

 

Sure, on the face of it the removal of Formations looks like it will open people up to take choices on a more comparative basis, rather than fielding "tax" units to get particular bonuses, but we don't actually even know if Scouts are still going to be a Troops choice at all.

 

My vote: Wait and See. Think we're talking a matter of weeks now before we see for ourselves.

 

 

 

*Regarding equipment choices, I wouldn't be surprised if Scouts and Scout Snipers got split out into two unit entries and only the Snipers could take Camo Cloaks, because that's how the model kits work. It's become increasingly common for GW to only offer rules options for things you can build straight out of the box.

[Race Bannon]

This is a good question.

 

Getting past the unknown, my initial desire (hope?  wish?) is that these Marine units in the Troop slot have associated rules that make both of them attractive to use.  I expect Scout Squads to cost less, clearly retain their weapon options, yet have innate rules that give them an edge due to their armor or upgrade options.

 

I have note said anything that has not been new for ... 5 editions?  Yet, the Formations really boxed in the Troop units as described earlier.  With the opening, I DO expect to see "Scout armies", which will be less from tactical advantage and more from player choice.

 

For my part, I have a healthy selection of Scouts already with an equally healthy amount of Tactical Squads.  I do not build "all-comer" lists and try to tailor my gaming experience to the opposing army, so having the options is important to me.  This basically answers the question.

 

Yet, I am a fan of the humble Tactical squad and will likely always field at least one squad in any army list.

[WAR]

I agree that this is good question......and I am really trying to take the "Wait and see" road but between my 10th company Raptors force and Adepta Sororitas armies, I am a tad bit nervous, but not about my Crimson Fists. 

 

I do hope they retain their WS/BS of 4. And I built an all scout army cause I thought it looks cool and very militaristic with the camo, sniper rifles, etc. I dont care how it well it does on the table top. When I play I play for fun against my friends. I do want to win but I spent most of 2nd and early 3rd edition losing, it happens. I except and I move on. 

 

My friends feel I will probably benefit from 8th because I run mass infantry (troops) a lot and do not use formations so I actually come out ahead in 8th edition. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I think scouts are going to be good just because of how the new rending system works.  They will be able to augment their saves with cover and still have a save against weapons they previously did not get a save against.  Also with todays post about characters not being as targettable I think scout snipers will have a role in removing or harming characters.  I think we can expect scouts to continue to be cheaper than tacticals which will mean they will be played in lists that wish to max out on fast attack/heavy/elite units.  Regarding split fire... this probably affects tacticals and scouts in a similar way but if I were to guess I'd say tacticals will benefit more since they can take a wider range of weapons.

[duz_]

Well based on the information mentioned in the new Guard review looks like snipers (or at least Ratling snipers) can target IC's without being limited to closest model. So theres a spot for sniper scouts at least (potentially)! ;)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Well based on the information mentioned in the new Guard review looks like snipers (or at least Ratling snipers) can target IC's without being limited to closest model. So theres a spot for sniper scouts at least (potentially)!

I just read that profile... I think guard are going to be top tier in 8th because of blobs and our new overlords... Leman Russ tanks.  

 

About scout snipers.. they are mobile now too since heavy weapons only take -1 to hit for moving.  In 7th I really had a strange obsession with sniping special weapons out of squads but now maybe I will be able to snipe characters.  

[Darkthorns]

I don't think much will happen to scouts, however I don't see exactly why tactical squad are thought of as a tax. 3 squads in pods with the right special weapon and combi gun can put a hurting on a good amount. Scouts, while amazing, lose their survivability once something remove their cover save. I've had scout snipers miss every shot and only act as a beacon for my Deepstriking troops, where as I've never had a whole tactical squad fail.

[duz_]

Yes I like the fact that especially for SM's they can move their heavy weapons and still be hitting on a 4+

 

Sniper scouts would certainly be more useful if re-positioning them didnt completely destroy their chances of hitting something

[NiceGuyAdi]

Having seen the news about snipers, along with split fire and minor penalty to moving and firing heavy weapons, I'm feeling pretty hopeful now that both units should make a valid option, and for different reasons, which if it works out could be really nice.

[Race Bannon]

Then again ... maybe it's only Ratlings who can pick out characters.  That makes sense in a historical way.  I'll bet Telion is going to be mean ...

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Then again ... maybe it's only Ratlings who can pick out characters.  That makes sense in a historical way.  I'll bet Telion is going to be mean ...

I bet Shrike will be meaner. >.<

[MajorNese]

My best guess would be, both tacticals and scouts will be viable, though in different roles.

 

Tacs, with effectively unlimited split fire, will truly be the alrounders they should have been all along. A lascannon targeting a tank here, meltagun barbecuing a monster there, sergeant flamering some chaff while the bolters mow down something else. This is simply something the scouts won't be able to do to that extent. Also, place in cover for a 2+ save.

 

Scouts, with new cover mechanic, will suffer from rending weaponry more than before, as few weapons had AP4 and ignores cover (unless of course Tau). But if camo cloaks still increase the cover by one, it could stack up to a 2+ save. Role-wise, the sniper scouts might do, and adding a missile launcher or heavy bolter suddenly becomes a lot more useful, usually targeting something else than the snipers. Bolter scouts don't offer much over bolter marines, paying maybe less, but lacking the versatility. What might become pretty awesome are CC scouts. Move through cover might become a higher movement distance, and striking first (on a 3+, not the usual 4+) leads to more damage output before dying to return blows. Stuff like power maul (if still S6, and maybe -1 rend) could make them more threatening than before, also being able to wound anything. Without knowing the full rules, I guess they will still be the fast harassment units they are right now (combined with a LSS).

[Race Bannon]

 

Then again ... maybe it's only Ratlings who can pick out characters.  That makes sense in a historical way.  I'll bet Telion is going to be mean ...

 

I bet Shrike will be meaner. >.<

He better be. Or ... I'll go to Facebook and complain like a millennial.

 

I can say that, I'm old.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

Then again ... maybe it's only Ratlings who can pick out characters.  That makes sense in a historical way.  I'll bet Telion is going to be mean ...

I bet Shrike will be meaner. >.<

He better be. Or ... I'll go to Facebook and complain like a millennial.

 

I can say that, I'm old.

 

In the realm of complaining... millennials are equivalent to grots or IG conscripts.  Baby boomers though are like Bloodthirsters when it comes to complaining.  They just dont do it online, they do it at the cottage or when lawn bowling.  

 

Getting back on topic... does anyone think 4 sniper scouts with a heavy bolter scout+hellfire shells would be a nice flexible scoring unit? It is pretty cheap and can engage lots of targets. 

[Race Bannon]

And be a big target for it.

 

Have they mentioned how objectives will work?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

And be a big target for it.

 

Have they mentioned how objectives will work?

 

If someone wants to shoot at a 72 point troop... have at it hoss.  I'd be especially happy about that if I fielded 6 squads of snipers with heavy bolters.  Lots of junk to chew through that can actually do some damage if ignored.

 

I havent seen anything on objectives but it wouldnt surprise me at all if only troops were scoring.    

[Race Bannon]

Very much agreed. That's been my argument about vehicles and lasguns :lol:

 

Wouldn't it be nuts if anyone could claim an objective? Talk about slug fest! Which leads me to think Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons will make a comeback.

 

For Scouts though, that may mean bigger squads.

[duz_]

Assault cannons left?? My TSF has them scattered everywhere! :)

[GreyCrow]

@Race : From the articles on infantry, It would seem only infantry can capture and hold

 

Still spéculation as of now obviously but would not be surprised

 

Scouts will not work much more differently than today I believe, except with the new sniper rules as from The Guard article.

 

One thing to remember is that things are going to die a lot quicker now. Just do some dice roll tests and you'll see what I'm talking ´bout :P

Lots and lots more variance now in results, with a relatively unimpressive average.

 

As in, not much will happen until you are in a situation where stars align and you yield a crazy output.

 

The new game of the tactical game is going to be to minimize reliance on dice rolls as much as possible and create back up scenarios

 

That means :

- focus fire from multiple weapons/units

[Race Bannon]

Which is always sound advice in any game I think ^_^

 

But I agree, scout roles will adjust. How exactly remains to be seen, of course. It's fun to imagine :yes:

[Mr. Poe]

Man, it's been a while since I've been on here. 

 

I think scouts, particularly sniper scouts, will have an interesting role in 8th. It looks like sniper units will have the ability to target independent character regardless of whether or not they are the closest model. Given that IC's can't hide in units anymore, this will be a really strong mechanic.

 

We don't have a lot of information on detachments yet but it look to me like multiple HQ models will be required. The Battalion requires 2-3 and the Brigade requires 3-5. Being able to target these models individually and at a distance will have value.  

[duz_]

I'm really excited for my Sniper scouts next edition! :)
 

[Mr. Poe]

Yes, me as well, haha. 

 

I've been looking for an excuse to buy a few of the Forgeworld recon models to "counts-as" scouts for my Raven Guard.

[Race Bannon]

Dagnabit ... That's a good idea. Derp, so obvious.