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Pink Horrors & 8th Edition


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#1
Daenerys Targaryen

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So,  from the few tidbits offered on the Chaos Daemons focus article,  and drawing a few possible hints from AoS,  I have to wonder if my glorious Tzeentchian legions are going to end up sitting back on the shelf for 8th,  as they did after the GK stupidity of 5th...

 

The biggest nerf dropped at the moment:  Split rule is still in,  but now you have to buy the Blues as 'reserve pts'!

So we get to pay for the basic unit,  and then,  to even use their built-in special rule,  (which one assumes is already 'paid' for within the model's basic cost),  we now to pay an additional 'tax' because... "Daemons broke 7th!lol."?

 

Personally,  as someone who's played mono-Tzeentch ever since the Daemon codex dropped pre-5th,  I hate this change.  (irony of statement is noted!:P )

Why can't GW just properly cost Pinkies to account for the splitting in the first place?!  Sure,  at 9pts like they currently are,  it's obnoxious and can easily break the game.  But why can't we just pay more pts for our unit,  in order to account for their ability to effectively 'bleed wounds',  instead of being forced into additional book keeping and (very likely) a potentially huge in-game disadvantage just to use our fluffy rule?

 

Secondly,  there's no word yet on *IF* Horrors will get an actual shooting attack back.  I find this especially concerning,  since AoS has a "Rule of One" for Matched Play,  (the ONLY kind of game my local store will ever play),  meaning that a specific spell can only ever be attempted once per turn!  (ie:  no even trying to cast 2 or more 'smite')

Without an actual shooting attack,  Horrors will instead become nothing but a burden to any mono Tzeentch player,  since they'll have 0 effective damage output in Matched Play.  (if rule of one makes it in)

 

So sure,  there's always the age-old,  "duh!  don't play mono-God because you shoot yourself in the foot stupid!"

But mono-God is literally the thing that attracted me to Chaos in the first place,  many,  many moons ago.  I'd hate to be utterly forced to break apart my theme,  (and true devotion),  to Great Tzeentch,  just to have an army that can play past turn 2.

 

 

Overall,  I have to say that my early hype for 8th is quickly being beaten out of me by what looks like a massive over-reaction by GW to curb 1 abusive mechanic.


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#2
Excessus

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Overall,  I have to say that my early hype for 8th is quickly being beaten out of me by what looks like a massive over-reaction by GW to curb 1 abusive mechanic.

 

I think it's you that is over-reacting personally, not GW. We have no information about most of the stuff you talked about in your post.

 

Lets see...

 

#1: Yes you need to pay for blue horros, but we have no information about how that rule works in 8th ed...also, that means the suddenly extremely durable horrors cost more than their 1 wound counterparts which is how it should be.

 

#2: Exactly, we don't know yet. Why even waste time about worrying about this? The rule of one thing has already been discussed and it seems unlikely that 8th ed will have that, but again, we don't know yet!

 

#3: Why do you beleive there is no mono-god armies anymore? Heck with keywords I strongly suspect there will be a "Tzeentch" one that you can play around with combined with daemon only FoCs and stuff.

 

 

 

So to sum it all up, relax, be patient. The rules will be out soon enough, this isn't a place to vent your frustration, this is a board for constructive discussions!


"Deception is the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

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#3
Plaguecaster

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Never understood why it never was a flat out 5+ for the split like feel no pain with certain stuff ignoring it then that way it wouldn't be over powerful like people claim and still be fluffy yet a nice way of getting extra reinforcements to stop a unit being completely wiped out in one turn

Edited by teutonicavenger, 16 May 2017 - 06:12 AM.

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#4
HeresyBeliever

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I think the same as you in the fact that if a unit of pink horrors cost 15 pints each and included the rule it would be fine. And to be fair it pretty much is. 

Currently in 7th we pay 90 points for 250 points of models. which isn't fair! 

As we don't know how many points the pinks, blue and brimstone will be its hard to say how big of an issue it is. It also depends on the physic or shooting they get. 

 

Maybe they will have a physic shooting which acts in the shooting phase as a gun instead of the physic phase like now. It would surprise me if they horrors come down in price as they no longer help the warp charge poll. 

 

We just don't know yet. If your enjoying playing the rules now make sure you get some games in before 8 th comes out. You never know you may like it!


The Dice Gods always win. And Khorne always wins because there is always blood when there is war.  


#5
Daenerys Targaryen

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Well,  going by what the local AoS players have mentioned,  Horrors are considered to be pretty much the single worst unit in that game atm,  and no one even bothers with splitting them anymore,  due to how the mechanic works.

As they've explained it,  you basically end up fighting at a pts disadvantage due to having to effectively pay a 2nd time for that rule.  Only,  instead of like summoning,  it's entirely on your opponent to 'activate' the ability,  which most people apparently just ignore the Pinkies until after the scary stuff is dead.

 

What we've seen so far,  GW is basically just porting the AoS daemon rules over into 40k.  That bodes ill for Tzeentch.



#6
xera32

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If reinforcement points are like AoS, then refilling the ranks of a unit doesn't cost any points. Rule of thumb is if you make a unit that didn't exist, you pay. If you add more models to a unit than it started with, you pay.

So if you buy a big unit of blues to begin with, and then suicide pinks to replenish their ranks, you will be fine. Horrors in this way can be awesome tarpits to hold units in place, being forced to kill pinks, which restore the blues (and add in brimstones to keep the fun going).

Even in this regard, horrors are decent still as they have an ok shooting attack, and are wizards(psykers) in their own right.



#7
Daenerys Targaryen

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Well,  considering that I've played a fluff bunny list that focuses more on Horrors + Flamers,  with only a few Screamers + Grinders in support,  (and I only used a single Malefic Tzherald),  I feel pretty safe in setting my expectations somewhere between 'Terminators get a functioning kit' and 'the Leafs will win the Stanley Cup next year'.

 

Of course,  I'm still regarded as the world's biggest TFG by the local Marine players,  because "Tzeentch is OP" and all that gak. -.-


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#8
Raven1

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If for think the change is good. Pinks shouldn't have the point cost built in, because the you are basically forced to buy and play with models for blue and brimstone horrors which brings the base cost of a single troops choice to $105. I find that to be excessive. As far as paying for points foe the models you have in your army... well free points should never have been a thing. Whether it is troops or vehicles or upgrades you should always pay for them.

If you pay all that money/points you do end with some great objective holders since it is based on number of models near the objective. The more horrors they kill the more you hold the objective.
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#9
bozo69pd

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I was long time contemplating picking up the blue/brim boxes and am glad I didn't, because it was clearly a total OP cash grab.

 

Pink horrors with splitting) especially with locus herald in unit) was completely broken, fortunately we only had to deal with it for 6 months. I personally believe they let them have that over the top rule, because they knew they were going to nerf it into the ground (which is fine because it was quite unfair many a time) in 8th. Sell those models while you can, nerf it later and give the middle finger to those chumps.



#10
Daenerys Targaryen

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So 'Rule of One' is in.

Congrats GW,  Horrors are now an unplayable mess...

 

A psychic unit that can now kill at most 3 models a turn,  and suddenly have far greater damage output in freaking close combat of all places!!

And to finish them off as useless trash,  now they have to pay an additional tax just to make use of their split rule. >.<

 

So much for balance.  8th is turning into a giant middle finger to Tzeentch in general.



#11
Excessus

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Were you using horrors as more than mana batteries or summoning machines anyway in 7th?


"Deception is the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

Alpha Legion Cell #379, Thousand Sons and other friends
The Serpent's Lair - Alpha Legion Forum

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#12
Daenerys Targaryen

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Yes I actually was using them as they were always intended to be - namely psychic shooters!

 

In a mono-Tzeentch list,  I had few WC issues,  and being a non-"Tournament Level" obnoxious list,  (I took a single Malefic Tzherald),  and thus only a bare amount of summoning,  I had plenty of WC's for pulling off Prescience/Misfortune + Flickering Fire.  (usually the 2D6 level to conserve dice)

I would typically only try a summon every other turn honestly,  as I was always more focused on augments/hexes and some dakka...  A Precog'ed Eternal Beatstick LoC was usually all the 'bullet magnet' I needed to keep opponents focused elsewhere anyways.

With an 18 + 2x 13 strong Horror units,  and their accompanying Tzheralds (Lv3 of course!),  that was 13WC's just from my main 'core'.  Occasionally I'd throw the Portalglyph in as well for more WC's.

 

It was never an abusive army,  and I usually got my backside handed to me by all the Gladius/Barkstars running around. 

But it was fun (as long as my opponent wasn't a censored.gif ) and most mature opponents seemed to have fun as well getting to play against something that wasn't yet another boring re-rolled 2++ Screamerstar & Clown Car silliness.

 

Now,  my army is complete and utter junk.

No more psychic shooting worth mentioning,  bland buffs,  negligible damage output that's now heavily restricted to a bare handful of models,  no more splitting unless I pay an additional 'tax'...

 

Tzeentch Daemons are DOA.

'Rule of One' is basically GW saying, "Tzeentch players please go away - no one likes you,  now please buy a new army because we can't be bothered to actually balance anything." down.gif



#13
Excessus

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Well, that's your opinion...


"Deception is the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

Alpha Legion Cell #379, Thousand Sons and other friends
The Serpent's Lair - Alpha Legion Forum

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#14
bozo69pd

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Pretty easy solution. Don't take the detachment that required troops. I know I will personally be spamming daemon prince, lord of change, soul grinder, and screamers since we know those units are good (I play AoS and win with those set ups and destiny dice pretty reliably). Seriously, it is a pretty easy work around. Now if you own 300 horror models I can see plenty of reason to be upset but that is financial issues.



#15
HeresyBeliever

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Hang on people.

 

a unit of 10 pink horrors can do a smite physic attack on a 5+ then shoot 18" S3 AP0 D1 Assult 2

 

Before they had to roll on 4+ on 2D6 just to get a spell/shoot off. Now they can shoot 20 s3 shots each hitting on a 4+ wounding on a 5+ (most of the time)

 

Yes you have to pay points for the blue/brimstone horrors, but they join the unit so give you loads more wounds to protect the shooting pinks.

 

I haven't seen the points for the horrors yet but they aren't to bad. 


The Dice Gods always win. And Khorne always wins because there is always blood when there is war.  


#16
Vanger

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Hang on people.

 

a unit of 10 pink horrors can do a smite physic attack on a 5+ then shoot 18" S3 AP0 D1 Assult 2

 

Before they had to roll on 4+ on 2D6 just to get a spell/shoot off. Now they can shoot 20 s3 shots each hitting on a 4+ wounding on a 5+ (most of the time)

 

Yes you have to pay points for the blue/brimstone horrors, but they join the unit so give you loads more wounds to protect the shooting pinks.

 

I haven't seen the points for the horrors yet but they aren't to bad. 

 

10 points for a Pink Horror, come in units of 10-30 :)


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#17
Excessus

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Also, you can buy blue/brimstone ones to act as chaff. And don't forget you can advance and fire assault weapons now so horrors might be quite speedy.


Edited by Excessus, 31 May 2017 - 03:51 PM.

"Deception is the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

Alpha Legion Cell #379, Thousand Sons and other friends
The Serpent's Lair - Alpha Legion Forum

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#18
bozo69pd

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In the moral phase icons replenish d6 lost units on the result of a 1. I don't know about you guys but I roll ones all day long.

 

So does that mean you might get blue horrors then roll a 1 at moral phase and get your pinkies back too?

 

Also as someone pointed out the shooting attacks are simply shooting, not a spell. So you can smite and shoot. Pretty decent.



#19
Lagrath

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Objective control in most missions is whoever has the most models within 3 inches, so being able to constantly pop out a large quantity of additional models might be handy for controlling objectives even if you have to pay reserve points.



#20
Xenith

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So instead of having to pay more points and have fewer models on the table to allow your horrors to split...you want to pay more points and have fewer models on the table to allow the horrors to split?

 

Just add the cost of the blues to any unit of pink you purchase, and all is solved.

 

The way it is allows players to split or not, depending on whether they have enough models in their collection. 


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#21
bozo69pd

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I suppose you can always summon in a LoC if you don't end up using your splitting by turn 3.



#22
Daenerys Targaryen

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Considering what they used to be,  Horrors are still utterly nerfed into the ground...

 

5th ed;

17 pts/model,  each came with a 18" S4/ap4/assault 3 shooting attack.

- While the only real realson people ever took them was as a min 5-gribbly squad for the S8 Bolt upgrade,  in non-serious play,  big units especially could easily threaten most single wound infantry.

My favourite configuration (9 Pinks includ Bolt) could still decently chip away at a standard 10-man MEQ squad while hopping about towards objectives.

 

6th ed;

9pts/model,  could cast a 2D6/3D6/4D6 shot S5/ap4,  24" range witchfire by passing a Ld10 psychic test.

- Horrors became fearsome!  Ld10 was pretty much auto-pass,  and with added augments such as Prescience and/or Misfortune aimed at their target,  anything not T5/W2 and/or a 2+ save had to respect a maxed-out squad's damage potential.

Still,  it was annoying (though funny to see opponents actually breath a huge sigh of relief!),  when they rolled that lucky 6 and denied the shots for a turn!

And as the squad was inevitable whittled down,  it's burst damage would drastically decrease,  making them a truly unique unit.

 

7th ed;

same as 6th,  but now usually needed 4-5WC's to cast the 3D6 version to conserve on dice.

- Introduction of WC's was a nerf,  and access to Malefic was beyond stupidly OP & slowed on GW's part.  Suddenly just putting a single Horror on the table made you the world's biggest TFG/WAAC's power gaming censored.gifcensored.gif in 99% of other people's opinions.

Adding in the Blues/Brims & splitting was hugely fluffy and a much welcome return,  but at their 9pts base cost,  was hugely unfair.  (GW really should have bumped Pinks back upto 17/18 pts a piece,  and no one with a semblance of a brain would have complained.)

 

Now in 8th ed;

10pts model,  33% of casting Smite for 1D3 MW's + S3/assault 2 shooting attack.

 

Easily their weakest version yet since Daemons became their own army,  and now nothing more really than just bullet catchers/bubble wrap for stuff you want to protect,  and/or a blob of cheap crap you camp on an objective.

I miss my psychic army.

 

The least they could have done was make their shooting S4 (or else at least give them ap-1 at S3!) to bring back in line with their 5th ed incarnation,  so that the Pinks at least had a semblance of having a tooth!

Now,  magical wrapfire - the raw warping magics of Tzeentch himself,  apparently has the same fizzle as a Guardsman's standard issue flashlight?!

 

Guess I don't need any Tzheralds or Pinks for the foreseeable future,  since Brims can do almost everything Pinks will do,  but at a only 1/5th of the cost!

Only thing I'll miss out on is a handful of token shots that might kill a Marine if I'm lucky.



#23
bozo69pd

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Well first I think heralds up pink str if they are nearby? Not sure. I think there's an icon that bubbles +1 str, so that is potentially infinite str 5 shots.

Also remember if you don't hit all your summons by turn 3 all reserves are killed, but the pinkies can keep splitting. I will bring 1 unit of pinks just for that backup insurance that I didn't waste some points with reserves

#24
themortalgod

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My 2¢ is that saving pts for splitting is a waste of pts. I'd rather just field the models than save the pts for the chance at getting them. I feel the same about AoS horrors. There is no incentive anymore to split.

That said. 2pts for brimstones is magnificent. Thats some mighty cheap chaffe to stand in the way of all those close combat rush armies that are going to become popular again. Especially since they are Ld7 and 4++. Not to mention they get to cast smite. You don't need pinks to cast smite. Thats huge. In AoS only pinks can cast. 

 

The smite may not seem all that great in a unit of pinks that costs you 100-150pts. But it is formidable in a squad of 10 brimstones that just cost you 20pts. Or optimally go with 1 blue making the squad 23pts. (The blue only to avoid consuming a brimstone each time you cast smite)

 

And the 4++ is just mind boggling how good it is on a 2pt model. It is never worth your opponent's effort to invest resources in damaging them but as savvy generals we will put our brimstones in situations where the opponent is forced to waste resources on them.

 

i'd argue Brimstones are now the most efficient chaffe in the entire game and unlike before they now actually have some threat.

 

Also pink horror shooting aren't terrible. Its basically shorter range lasguns that are assault 2 instead of RF. Nothing game breaking, but not terrible either and you can protect your pinks with brimestones which is also pretty good.

 

Overall I feel the big losers are the blues, which aren't horrible but +1 str and -1 attacks compared to brimstones isn't worth more than double the points per model. I just can't think of a compelling reason to ever take blues over brimstones which is unfortunate since they share a box with brimstones.

 

 

Finally, think about this, for paltry 1300pts you get

 

4 Heralds of Tzeentch with Staves

12 squads of 40 brimstones (480 models!)

6 command pts (2 battalions)

 

spend the other 700pts on stuff thats scary like LoC, or Exalted Flamers, etc and that would be one scary army. Virtually no one will have enough volume of attacks. (close combat or shooting) to kill enough brimstones in a 5 turn game to ever have any expectation of taking objectives. 

 

Only downside is you'd need to buy 48 boxes of pinks/blue horrors and ud have 480 blue horrors that you have absolutely no use for. It certainly would be a tough army to overcome though for most opponents. That said, expect a lot of angry glares every time you start your 20min movement phase hahaha.


Edited by themortalgod, 04 June 2017 - 11:53 PM.


#25
bozo69pd

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I think the main #1 reason to use blue horrors is $$$. If you buy 2 boxes of blues + brims, that is the troop requirement for a 200 point army right there. Very cheap entry level price and they can spend the rest of their money on the important stuff.

 

#2 I am wondering is who wins cc when getting charged most likely, 1 full unit of blues or 1 full unit of brims? Vs harlequins or vs astartes etc makes a big deal in that matchup of course, but I wonder what the best unit is in that scenario?






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