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Guilliman didn't outdo the Emperor.


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#26
StruManChu

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GWS seemed to think it need a new product line and just shoehorned in the fluff to allow it. It's got nothing to do with the story line, it's everything to do with wanting to get more money.


^ This guy knows what's up.

 

What I'm hoping is that the studio writers will put in some easter eggs for us, like the Sons of Antaeus being an early testbed of the Primaris that didn't quite work according to plan or something like that.

 

It's not a particularly strong hope though. My guess is it's going to be a bit of a whitewash in terms of the fluff.


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#27
Wargamer

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To those trying to argue that Guilliman isn't doing better than the Emperor, let me phrase this to you differently.

Let's suppose Microsoft makes a games console. It has a goal of providing an affordable, widely available gaming experience to the community.

 

If Sony then produces a console that costs less, has better graphics and better games, which company made the better console? The answer is obviously "Sony", no matter how many times you turn around and say "but Microsoft makes PCs which are better than consoles!" That's not the point. The point is Sony made the better console.

 

This is the problem with the existence of Primaris Marines; Guilliman made a better Space Marine than the guy who made the best Space Marines ever.

 

Furthermore, the idea that the Emperor didn't "need" to make Space Marines better is kind of stupid. Why would you arbitrarily draw the line like that? As others point out, Thunder Warriors were stronger, but less stable. Space Marines trade stability for raw power. Primaris Marines do not; it's a free upgrade.

 

So they're stronger for free, and are made faster for free, which means either A) Girlyman and his pet toaster are better than the Emperor, or B) the Emperor is a moron who decided to design his Marines with deliberate and unnecessary flaws that made them sub-optimal. Neither of these are acceptable answers to me.


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#28
Master Commander Ajax

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We already know the Emperor could do better than the regular marines and even the Primaris marines, because not only do the Primarchs exist, but Custodes and Thunder Warriors do as well.

 

People who make comments complaining about Guilliman and Cawl outdoing the Emperor simply never think critically about their complaints. Too many people on the Internet fail to use any mote of logic or reason or analyse their ideas before flinging them out into the void of the web.

I respectfully disagree with you.

 

The Thunder warriors are only 'better' if you take the narrow-minded view that just because they were bigger and stronger that it made them better soldiers. If they had been capable of conquering the galaxy like the Astartes did then the Space Marines would not exist, people often forget that the Astartes are exceptional in mind as well as body. Similarly, the Custodes were created as the Emperors personal bodyguard, each was a bespoke creation which represented a significant investment which prohibited them from ever being produced on the same scale as the Astartes (not that that was ever the Emperors intention). 

 

Most (if not all) of the arguments I've seen so far have been well constructed and thought out. The problem is that you are trying to apply 21st-century logic to the 41st Millenium. We live in an (overall) optimistic time where science has solved many of our problems. We have free speech and are encouraged to question the world around us. It is quite reasonable to assume that we will one day live in a world where we have eradicated hunger and illness. In short 'nothing is sacred'. This isn't the setting of 40k, in fact, it's much the opposite. It's a paranoid, fearful place where innovation amounts to heresy. Daemons not only exist but actively seek to consume and destroy mankind itself, faith is the only defence against damnation. The Emperor was, is and always will be mankind's only hope. It is by his force of will alone that the Imperium endures at all. And his most important gift to mankind? The Space Marines, the Angels of death themselves. 

 

So yes, It is, of course, possible for Guilliman to walk into this setting and wave his magic wand of science around and solve everything but is it in keeping with the 40K that we knew? This is essentially where the case against the Primaris Marines comes from and is the source of most people grievances. 


Edited by Master Commander Ajax, 17 May 2017 - 04:28 PM.

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#29
Xenith

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Big E was developing.

He made the thunder warriors, then decided he needed primarchs and marines to take the fight to the stars. He went from thunder warrior to primarchs in about 100 years, and marines in about 10-20 after that. The Astartes project had to be rushed as he lost the primarchs. He had to stop development to go and lead the crusade because the primarchs went missing.

Big E got 90% of the way to primaris Astartes in 100 years.

It took mars 10,000 years to get that extra 10% that gives them an extra wound.

They would have been better off producing billions of normal marines and giving them the 100 years training and experience it takes to level up to captain. Then they'd have gained +1BS, A, I, W, and +2WS, and LD over the 10k year project that gets a marine only +1 W ...

So no, Cawl didn't do better. It was an abysmal failure and a waste of time.

Edited by Xenith, 17 May 2017 - 04:43 PM.

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#30
robofish7591

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Big E was developing.

He made the thunder warriors, then decided he needed primarchs and marines to take the fight to the stars. He went from thunder warrior to primarchs in about 100 years, and marines in about 10-20 after that. The Astartes project had to be rushed as he lost the primarchs. He had to stop development to go and lead the crusade because the primarchs went missing.

Big E got 90% of the way to primaris Astartes in 100 years.

It took mars 10,000 years to get that extra 10% that gives them an extra wound.

They would have been better off producing billions of normal marines and giving them the 100 years training and experience it takes to level up to captain. Then they'd have gained +1BS, A, I, W, and +2WS, and LD over the 10k year project that gets a marine only +1 W ...

So no, Cawl didn't do better. It was an abysmal failure and a waste of time.

 

But if they had done that then Chaos probably would have just packed up and went back into the eye of terror grumbling something about "unbound lists" and too many HQs msn-wink.gif



#31
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Custodes were not mass produced. Each was hand crafted by the master artisan, Him On The Golden Throne.
And Astartes were not made 'weaker', they were made STABLE, biologically and mentally. A tradeoff of which was a bit less physical strength and speed than the Thunder Warriors. But they aren't "designed to be worse".

 
Dress it up all you want, but the fact remains that Astartes are weaker and worse than Thunder Warriors in this discussion about strength and "who's better".

"Better" is debatable. Going by the reflections of a Custodian Dreadnought who lived and half-lived through the Unification Wars and Crusade, the Space Marines had discipline far beyond anything the Thunder Warriors possessed. He explicitly concludes that the Thunder Warriors would never have defeated the foes the Legions conquered.

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#32
Mellow

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Source for that Custodian Dreadnought?

Also, where's the source for all of this Primaris lore?

#33
bluntblade

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MoM. Sagittarus' POV.

Also, the Primarchs are for their part a quite unrepeatable work of science and sorcery

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#34
Reinhard

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Flawed analogies and incorrect assumptions abound here, I think. Unless I've seriously misunderstood something.

 

The emperor didn't have 10.000 years to improve upon the space marine template. Also, RG didn't develop the technology to improve upon said template, Cawl did. RG just gave an executive order to start using them. Or have i missed some part of what little new lore we have that says otherwise?

 

So has Cawl outdone the emperor by spending 10.000 years to improve upon his work, which was developed in a century? Is that even a fair question?


Edited by Reinhard, 18 May 2017 - 06:40 AM.

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#35
Master Commander Ajax

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Flawed analogies and incorrect assumptions abound here, I think. Unless I've seriously misunderstood something.

 

The emperor didn't have 10.000 years to improve upon the space marine template. Also, RG didn't develop the technology to improve upon said template, Cawl did. RG just gave an executive order to start using them. Or have i missed some part of what little new lore we have that says otherwise?

 

So has Cawl outdone the emperor by spending 10.000 years to improve upon his work, which was developed in a century? Is that even a fair question?

 

You talk about flawed analogies and then compare Belisarius Cawl to the Emperor? 

 

look in the 40K lore there are some well-established themes, the paranoia surrounding technology in the Imperium, the Eldar being a dying race, etc. The Emperor's great works never being trumped is one of them. Of course, there are plenty of ways you can explain how it would be possible but it isn't in keeping with the setting. You could say for example that Cawl secretly knew about the Tyranids and spent the next ten thousand years figuring out ways of controlling them using top secret mind control technology. You could also say that he has spent all of that time building a new Golden throne for the Emperor which will boost the Astronomican and remove the dangers of Warp Travel. Hell, you could even say that he is actually a missing Primarch who has spent all this time splicing Ork and Elder DNA creating an army of Alien Space Marine hybrids to conquer the galaxy with. You can come up with all sorts of imaginative and logical ways of explaining all of these scenarios but it isn't in keeping with the current 40k lore. 

 

The point is is that they are changing a key principle of the 40K setting. Of course, you can be happy about this and the possibilities it presents but that doesn't change the fact that it is not in keeping with what came before.


Edited by Master Commander Ajax, 19 May 2017 - 01:12 AM.


#36
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So, who wants to be able to buy truescale marines?

Who wants to make them easily accessible and cost-effective-ish?

Its no more absurd than sentient psychic space fungus trash savants.


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#37
Master Commander Ajax

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So, who wants to be able to buy truescale marines?

Who wants to make them easily accessible and cost-effective-ish?

Its no more absurd than sentient psychic space fungus trash savants.

 

There are plenty of ways of doing 'truescale' Space Marine models without trashing the fluff.


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#38
SickSix

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So in the livestream today comfirmed marines can be 'upgraded' to Primaris.

So death of regular marines confirmed. They have put in the mechanism that will justify them stopping the sale of regular marine kits.

And it will probably only take a year or two at most for them to have the full line of Primaris kits out.
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#39
micahwc

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I really don't get why they just didn't say, "new pattern of armor, it's a little bit larger to fit special enhancements", also "new bolt rifle STC was found".  Then everyone just gets excited for true scale marines with better guns.


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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#40
Reinhard

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Flawed analogies and incorrect assumptions abound here, I think. Unless I've seriously misunderstood something.

 

The emperor didn't have 10.000 years to improve upon the space marine template. Also, RG didn't develop the technology to improve upon said template, Cawl did. RG just gave an executive order to start using them. Or have i missed some part of what little new lore we have that says otherwise?

 

So has Cawl outdone the emperor by spending 10.000 years to improve upon his work, which was developed in a century? Is that even a fair question?

 

You talk about flawed analogies and then compare Belisarius Cawl to the Emperor? 

 

 

And why not exactly? I for one prefer the idea that a dedicated scientist actively working for 10.000 years improved upon them, to a version where RG does it within a short time of his sudden revival. Also, did it escape you that this comparison is the base premise of this entire thread? 

 

Granted I could perhaps have been a bit clearer with what I called what. I was mostly thinking of gaming console comparisons amongst others when I said "flawed analogies", while the fact that most people seemed to assume RG did the work to upgrade the marines was an "incorrect assumption". In either case your argument comes down to you want the work of the Emperor to be unimprovable, and you call this a core principle of the Lore, and to that: "fair enough?" I guess.


Edited by Reinhard, 19 May 2017 - 05:38 PM.

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#41
Mellow

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I agree that His work could be improved given enough time. That's part of how Humanity works. Even today and certainly in a fictional far future where things like the Golden Age happened. For that to happen things must have been improved upon and it sure wasn't The Emperor inventing absolutely everything for Humanity.

#42
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Haven't seen the actual fluff to understand the actual nature of the changes made to marine template, only going by the thread...

Is it possible the changes are closer toward recreating the first batch of Astartes, 30k version, instead of the currently degraded gene seed after 10k?

If, however, it is an update/upgrade/improvement type of deal, then not unreasonable for someone to improve upon the original after 10k years, some people forget the Emperor didn't do everything himself, had teams working with him, some with abilities he could not replicate-HH story with Fists go to a sect on Luna, Praetorian of Dorn I think for reference- so very possible someone else could do it
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#43
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Spartan 2's still better than spartan 4's. 


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#44
Master Commander Ajax

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The Emperor is a being of unfathomable power, it's impossible for a mere mortal to even begin to comprehend him let alone outdo him. There are clear analogies with religions today (which due to forum rules I can't delve too deeply into).

 

I think the problem is that Guilliman brings 31st millennium thinking into the 41st (and more importantly is powerful enough to do something about it). The sort of free, innovative thinking that was prevalent back then and which is much more relatable to us today was NEVER meant to be a part of the 40k setting. In fact, it was a deliberate juxtaposition.


Edited by Master Commander Ajax, 19 May 2017 - 10:32 PM.


#45
Kinstryfe

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Two ways to approach this: did rg/cawl create more powerful Astartes than Big E? Did they create better genetic products than Big E? The first is debatably yes, depending on whether Primaris Astartes are going to be ultimately presented as an improvement never seen before, or a regression to more stable 30k methods of creation. The second is an obvious no, as the custodes and Primarchs are clearly better examples of genetic engineering.

Honestly though, bigger stronger faster marines have always been in the fluff. I can actually see this being retconned to either state that some marines previously just said to be super big (Pollux, Abadon) were actually early special attempts at Primaris by the Emperor, at which point I'm pretty sure the internet collectively will explode, or that they noticed some marines are enhanced far beyond what the average dictates, and cawl was trying to find a way to make every marine turn out as big and burly as the odd freak marine turned out. Weirdly, I feel either of those excuses could actually made Primaris more legitimate, as they were in fact then projects of the Emperor :)

#46
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The Emperor R bestest at everythink!

To believe otherwise is a false belief that is rather frowned upon.

#47
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IMO headcanon primaris Marines are the finalised version of what was attempted during the cursed founding. I get this mainly from the sons of anteus who are larger than standard marines and can take hits that would kill a standard marines outright.

#48
Xenith

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Two ways to approach this: did rg/cawl create more powerful Astartes than Big E? Did they create better genetic products than Big E? The first is debatably yes, depending on whether Primaris Astartes are going to be ultimately presented as an improvement never seen before, or a regression to more stable 30k methods of creation. 

 

Well, the first is undoubtedly no.

 

Cawl built on the Emperors work. He didn't start from afresh, He made an improvement.

 

That's like saying Anvil or whoever that makes add on's to GW space marines make better space marines than GW do.

 

Primaris marines are 90% what the Emperor did + 10-15% of tweaks that Cawl finished.


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#49
slitth

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The old/normal Astartes are to the Warhammer 40.000 world that the T-34 was to tanks in WWII.

Not the best thing on the battlefield, but what is winning the war.

 

At least we didn't get Astartes in mini titans.


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#50
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The old/normal Astartes are to the Warhammer 40.000 world that the T-34 was to tanks in WWII.

Not the best thing on the battlefield, but what is winning the war.

 

At least we didn't get Astartes in mini titans.

That would be the Imperial Guard, surely? Losing the Astartes would be a blow, but it's the Guard that keep the Imperium alive.


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