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Guilliman didn't outdo the Emperor.


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#51
frostclaw222

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The Emperor had created better Astartes. 

 

But then he needed to create greater numbers of them in order to begin unifying the Solar System. 

 

When he took Luna, he got access to the genecults up there. They had tech that enabled him to mass produce Astartes, whereas up to that point, it was more of a "small batch" operation. Many of the great Heresy era Astartes were Terrans who were created by this small batch process. Loken and Ahriman, for instance, were both of Terran stock, and not only were they titans in their early years, they just kept getting more butch as time rolled by. 

 

I am not saying Primaris = Terran small batch Astartes. But I am saying the Emperor tweaked the recipe after the conquest of Luna in order to shift to mass production to fuel the Great Crusade, and that may have meant subsequent iterations were inferior to the Terran recipe. That plus ten thousand years of degradation gets you the current Astartes. 

 

So, while I do think Cawl enhanced the Emperor's design, I think it wasn't new technological advances in gengineering, but more a cobbling together and retrofitting of existing gene-tech from the various product lines the Emperor had produced, with some updated armor (which doesn't seem to perform much better than Mk IV-VIII) and weapons (which likely are just up-sized and usable due to the increased musculature of the Primaris allowing for that sort of weapon.

 

Simply put, I think Cawl spent ten thousand years merging product lines back to the main trunk, and seeing what features he could successfully integrate into a new branch. And he likely did so with Heresy era geneseed from the vaults.

 

He didn't so much improve on the Emperor's designs so much as spin-off a new composition of existing technologies. There's probably a little of the Custodes and Thunder Warrior product lines in there, along with the Astartes and Primarch lines.

 

And Cawl had ten thousand years to do it, possibly with a significant portion of Martian gengineering capacity dedicated to the effort in secret. Possibly with the Emperor's own notes or direct experience from some of these projects, since Cawl is old enough to have been part of some of those processes. The Primarchs and Astartes took the Emperor a few years at most to start the line, a few decades to produce in bulk. And the Thunder Warriors pretty much came out of nowhere. Cawl has had millennia. 

 

Cawl isn't a MacGuffin. He's a hacker and reverse engineer. I doubt there's very little in a Primaris marine that you can't find in another one of the Emperor's genetic tamperings.  


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#52
Claws and Effect

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I like that take on it.

My whole point in starting this thread in the first place was to combat the kneejerk notion that it was Guilliman waving a magic STC and poof we have Primaris Marines.

#53
Corswain

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I have two issues (fluff wise) with Guilliman and Cawl upgrading Astartes:

First, yes, the Emperor could undoubtedly create better Astartes but he chose not to. I'm sure there was a good reason. Why have Guilliman/Cawl ignored that reason? This could actually lead to some interesting repercussions in the fluff so we'll see what happens.

Second is Fabius Bile. It was an unspeakable horror for Bile to go playing around with the Astartes genes during the Heresy, Fulgrim almost killed him on the spot when he found out. Why is it ok for Guilliman/Cawl to do it?

So for me, it's not that he has made better Marines, it's why.

#54
Legionaire of the VIIth

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I have two issues (fluff wise) with Guilliman and Cawl upgrading Astartes:

First, yes, the Emperor could undoubtedly create better Astartes but he chose not to. I'm sure there was a good reason. Why have Guilliman/Cawl ignored that reason? This could actually lead to some interesting repercussions in the fluff so we'll see what happens.

Second is Fabius Bile. It was an unspeakable horror for Bile to go playing around with the Astartes genes during the Heresy, Fulgrim almost killed him on the spot when he found out. Why is it ok for Guilliman/Cawl to do it?

So for me, it's not that he has made better Marines, it's why.

Wasn't it the way Fabius Bile went about it? Corax had full blessing from the Emperor himself for his project and no one questioned it, only sabotaged it (Oh those wacky Alpha Legion and their antics).


Edited by Legionaire of the VIIth, 27 May 2017 - 09:53 PM.


#55
Corswain

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Fabius used some alien bits and pieces but he was doing all sorts of stuff. And I don't think we can rule out alien stuff going into the creation of the Primaris - Guilliman's only back because of alien tech/magic.

As for Corax? I've got no real argument there but I do think it was one of the poorer plot lines so far. One of the ones I'd rather forget about. My belief, based on pre-BL fluff, was that Corax was trying to make the process quicker, not better. BL kinda messed that up for me.

That also begs the question of whether Guilliman had the Emperor's blessing. Are we talking about a Primarch working with the Emperors own research (Corax) or with nothing but his own and Cawls ingenuity (Fabius)?

Edited by Corswain, 27 May 2017 - 10:46 PM.

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#56
Claws and Effect

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Corax was trying to make it faster. The successful ones were bigger and stronger because he was using pure Primarch geneseed, rather than the diluted version that makes regular Astartes.

Maybe that came into it as well? Perhaps Guilliman himself's geneseed was used, rather than generic Ultramarine geneseed.

And similar for other chapters. Maybe Primaris turned out bigger and stronger simply because purer geneseed created them.

#57
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We probably won't really get a proper answer for this until 8th launches. Hopefully when the Primaris book releases, we'll get some details. And hopefully it's done well......

#58
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I mean its been noted for years now that a number of chapters simply dont have full use of all the astartes organs, and that many chapters seem to be simply failing over time.

Its also been said that Mars was getting gene-seed tithe, and that chapters generally tried to send their best to make a good impression and pass the purity testing that went on.

We also knew they horded the stuff on mars to make extra foundings, and that sometimes chapters were paid in extra gene-seed.


This all spells out a form of control. Post-heresy and with the disappearance of death of the primarchs there was a concerted effort to reign in astartes power. Now RG is back, and he goes to the Sol system and laws down some law and enforcement, and opens the gates that were genetically restricting the astartes. Not only do the Primaris come out, as they may have been ready to do for many hundreds of years, but Im willing to bet all surviving chapters in good standing will get large shipments of gene-seed to shore up any issues or quirks that have developed in the 30-40 generations since the heresy.


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#59
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Sorry to necro a two week post, but the comparison clicked with me.

Certainly, but that is assuming you consider "mass production" an important quality. I'm sure in a galaxy wide war, quantity is going to have a lot of supporters in their camp, but "quantity is a quality in its own" completely invalidates the discussion to begin with. You don't even need super soldiers at that point when you can just throw infinite regular soldiers at the problem.

 

For example, would you say that Toyota has outdone Porsche because they sold millions of Corollas but Porsche made less than 1,000 918's? No, of course not.

 

Even if RG and Cawl were able to make the Primaris, who are both better AND mass producible, can they make Primarchs? Can they make Custodes? Have they really outdone the Emperor when all they're doing is making Corolla S models?

Space Marines (sparse but incredibly resilient mass produced Toyota Hilux):
95bd17c814064447921211ba9d199999.jpg

 

Primaris Marines (same Hilux with fancy new furnishing by Cawl&RG, a bit worse in places, a bit better in others):

toyota-hilux-2015-%283%29.jpg

 

Thunder Warriors (powerhouse Dodge Ram 6500, it will biodegrade on you):

8374344055_4fe62d9dd8_b.jpg

 

Custodes (custom Pagani Zonda R, peak performance and quality available, but rare as hell):

58932afb582c7da1b2a30151.jpg


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#60
Antarius

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I think there's definitely some lazy, subpar writing in the new fluff. However, I also think there's a decent story in there.

So, I'm gonna do what I've always done and focus on making the basic story (and all its potential subplots) awesome in my head and on my table.

 

When it comes to the new marines, I confess to having a bit of an rolleyesclean.gif reaction to the fluff at first. Especially the "Suddenly, out of nowhere; bigger, better Space Marines" part. However, on reflection, I can totally buy the idea of a crazed techmagos laboring for millennia in the depths of his secret forges to bring forth new weapons at the command of the Emperor's son(s?). What is more, I can buy it as being 40K (which is pretty important - if I couldn't I'd be outta here).

 

So, I don't actually have a problem with the idea that there are new, improved Space Marines out there. Even if it means that Cawl, in a sense, outdid the Emperor (which I don't necessarily think he did, even if he improved on his basic design - the basic design was still the breakthrough).


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#61
appiah5

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Guilliman did outdo the Emperor because Space Marines are the best Astartes that the Emperor has made and Primaris are better Astartes than what the Emperor has done.

 

Primarchs are not Astartes.  Guilliman did not try to make better Primarchs.

 

Even the book says this:

 

 

And, most amazingly, in creating the Primaris Space Marines, Cawl had improved upon the Emperor’s own designs.

(Pg 187)

 

That said, I'm pretty certain he could if he tried.  After all, it's Wardhammer 40,000.


Edited by appiah5, 12 June 2017 - 09:59 AM.

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#62
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Something that got me a lot while reading the novels was that what we know from the Space Marines and the Imperium at large comes from sources within the Space Marines or the Imperium at large. Even facts that are purely descriptive are somehow anchored within an "Index" or "Report" or some other Imperial record.

 

Hence, going with the setting, I've never thought of the Adeptus Astartes as the objectively best soldiers out there. To the contrary: If we look at other tyrannical, fascist states IRL, it's totally common that the military apparatus of said state describes itself as unbeatable and their soldiers as the best ones out there. This serves to strengthen morale through propaganda. We see this a lot with the Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum, but for some reason a lot of people here seem to believe that the same does not hold true to the Adeptus Astartes. Maybe it's because the 4th wall has been broken on the regular with publications about the IG/AM. But I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the Space Marines.

 

They call themselves "The Emperor's finest". Yes. But what's the benchmark here? As we've established, there were purely better creations by the Emperor (Custodes and Primarchs) as well as others that were better in their specific usage (Thunder Warriors). And I use the term "usage" deliberately, because recent fluff (Master of mankind and Dark Imperium) has established that the Emperor sees his creations as tools. Even his "beloved sons", the Primarchs, don't get a pass here:

Spoiler

 

So when some say "How could Cawl have made better Space Marines than the Emperor?" the question should really be "Why has the Emperor limited the Space Marines as much as he did, so that some other being - nowhere near his level of prowess - could improve upon it?" Because for all I know, there's nothing stating that Space Marines are really, objectively, the best. The opposite, in fact: they just tell that to themselves (and us, the readers).

 

In other words: Noth Korea's soldiers will most certainly refer to themselves as the best army on earth, whereas from an external point of view, we know that this opinion is heavily flawed and influenced by indoctrination. Why should the Space Marines be different?



#63
Atia

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You guys are aware that the Marines of 40k ARE NOT the same kind of Marines as 30k Marines, right? Even 100 years after the Scouring, Marines were worse than GC era dudes. The Primaris Marines are not really different to Corax' Raptors (prior to that Alpha Legion incident).


Edited by Atia, 12 June 2017 - 12:07 PM.

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#64
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You guys are aware that the Marines of 40k ARE NOT the same kind of Marines as 30k Marines, right? Even 100 years after the Scouring, Marines were worse than GC era dudes. The Primaris Marines are not really different to Corax' Raptors (prior to that Alpha Legion incident).

 

I keep reading this nonsense everywhere and I have to say this once and for all:

 

giphy.gif

 

They are ABSOLUTELY NOT Corax's Raptors.  Corax made the Raptor marines with unaltered Primarch geneseed.  And even then, Corax's Raptors was something the Emperor was guiding him to do regardless.  This is NOT what Cawl has done.  He basically took the Emperor's formula and IMPROVED it.  Going so far as to ADD THREE ORGANS.

 

That is the level of stupid we are talking about here.


Edited by appiah5, 12 June 2017 - 01:18 PM.

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#65
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But Corax also improved them though, right? Perhaps in a different way but until they were proven unstable (potentially only through AL sabotage) but were physically larger, tougher and stronger than baseline marines.

 

Cawl probably went for less extreme measures but kept it stable with the addition of more organs.


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#66
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Would not be surprised if Corax's notes were a jumping off point for Cawl's work.

#67
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Would be interesting to see a tie in somewhere.

 

Realistically thought it's all a matter of perspective. For example most people on this forum will defend space marines for what they are because subconsciously  some of us  do love the ideology behind them. Giant (noble/sadistic/whatever) warriors, imbued with power syphoned down via genetic material from an "atheistic" demi god.

 

With regards to practicality, Space marines are indeed solid all rounder's but as many of us know (and i'm gonna catch a lot of the brown stuff for saying this) they are NOT the peak of perfection in a militaristic sense. But this does not detract from what they are. Human. Now the thing is despite having their personalities forges and mental conditioning forced upon them that would send most people into tinfoil hat mode, the greatness comes from what they are as people and how well they interact with one another.

 

Now space marines will probably find the Primaris marines imposing as in theory they are "better" then what they are. Technically though so are custodes, or grey knights or hell lots of things even. But to the space marines that can see past that they will realize what they are. A valuable tactical asset. Thing is the Emperor foresaw the instability in the Thunder warriors and thus the culling begun (big mistake in my person opinion) Now what we have here (along with a mix off weak writing and plot holes) is a chance for the Space marines and the primaris marines to learn how to integrate. Something which would seem alien to them I imagine. Although if successful and marines to "Ascend" to the next level, maybe they  will be able to Ascend again.

 

Although I can imagine this would infuriate certain chapters (and most fluff readers) I like the dynamic is brings to the table.

 

I apologize for my typos and grammatical errors. Im not dyslexic, im just really stupid.


Edited by The_son_of_Dorn, 06 July 2017 - 02:35 PM.

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