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8th Edition: Close Combat Weapons


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174 replies to this topic

#151
sfPanzer

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I think you guys need to reread it:

"You also can’t shoot if there is an enemy with 1″ of you. The exception to this rule is pistols. Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!"

That indeed states they are an exception to the rule of not shooting into combat.

I think you need to read all of it tho.

It's an exception to shoot while you are IN combat (if there is an enemy with 1" of you) with the additional restriction that you have to shoot at the closest enemy target...which would be the unit you are in close combat with since it's impossible to be any closer.

 

Nowhere it says with any word that they can shoot into any other combat.

 

 

"You also can't shoot if there is an enemy with 1" of you"

- Check. Doesn't matter since you are talking about shooting into combat not out of combat.

 

"The exception to this rule is pistols"

- Doesn't matter either since the previous part doesn't matter as we just noted.

 

"Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the shooting phase,"

- Check. Any model can shoot at the closest enemy target in the shooting phase no matter the weapon. It also still references about not being allowed to shoot while you are within 1" of an enemy. Nothing here overwrites the core rule of not being allowed to shoot into combat generally. Just while you are within 1" of an enemy unit.

 

"even if they themselves are locked in combat"

- Doesn't matter since you are talking about shooting into combat and not out of combat.

 

 

So where exactly does your quoted part allow pistols to shoot into a combat they aren't part of? The only thing it says is that they are allowed to shoot pistols while locked in combat with the restriction that their target has to be the closest enemy unit (which is obviously the one they are in combat with).


Edited by sfPanzer, 20 May 2017 - 12:25 PM.

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#152
Captain Idaho

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It states that "The exception to this rule is pistols. Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!"

It's fairly simple:

The exception is pistols - okay we know they are an exception.

The following states - models with pistols can shoot at the closest enemy target in the shooting phase.

That's pretty conclusive.

#153
sfPanzer

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Yeah it says "TO THIS RULE". This rule is "You also can't shoot if there is an enemy with 1" of you."

That just means you can shoot OUT of combat but with not a single word it means you could shoot INTO another combat.

 

The following just states the restriction that it has to be the closest unit. Which is of course the unit you are in combat with unless you somehow manage to have a unit closer than 1" without being in combat with it. rolleyesclean.gif 


Not sure how one can misread that. Feels almost like you are doing that on purpose. huh.png


Edited by sfPanzer, 20 May 2017 - 12:33 PM.

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#154
Captain Idaho

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Same here...

We'll see then.

#155
Venomlust

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Dunno, no references have directly been made to being able to shoot into ongoing combats by anyone other than the participants using pistols. Pretty sure I saw a GW comment on facebook saying units can't shoot into ongoing combats they're not a part of, but don't have the time (or inclination :P) to look it up, so take that for what you will. Nor have Frankie, Reese, or anyone else mentioned being able to shoot into combats. For what it's all worth.



#156
sfPanzer

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So far you're the only one i've seen who interprets the rule the exact other way around so i'm farely sure i'm on the right side. :P


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#157
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I don't mind either way. But consider it is a game of simplification. It's likely all or nothing.

#158
Retributis

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I wonder what eviscerators are going to be? Chainsword profile with D3 damage?



#159
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Evicerator a have Armourbane currently, so I'm thinking they'll probably get the "roll 2 pick highest" for damage. I doubt they'll give an extra attack, but you never know. I'd expect them to keep their Sx2 and probably AP-3 or -4. If they don't it's going to make my Canoness very sad. And Repentia.
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#160
Canadian_F_H

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Well...

I'm assuming guard will get 4+ to hit in melee and shootng... so power fists will only hit on a 5+ for them... so I don't expect to see any more fists in the guard than I do already...

#161
teutonicavenger

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Kinda sad about powerfists having -1 hit I think I'll be changing all my champs weapons to axes instead

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#162
Antarius

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I'm not quite sure if I'm following the discussion re:shooting into combat, but GW pretty much said you can't back when they were talking about withdrawing from combat, didn't they? I seem to recall that they mentioned withdrawing from combat so your other units could shoot at the newly unengaged enemy.

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#163
sfPanzer

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I'm not quite sure if I'm following the discussion re:shooting into combat, but GW pretty much said you can't back when they were talking about withdrawing from combat, didn't they? I seem to recall that they mentioned withdrawing from combat so your other units could shoot at the newly unengaged enemy.

Yeah but his argument is that Pistols are an exception of that which is nowhere mentioned with any word or phrase. The only exception Pistols have is shooting out of combat and they're restricted by having to shoot at the closest enemy unit anyway. ^^


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#164
Charlo

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I'm still feeling like powerful pistols may be wasted in combat (unless you have ways to keep the enemy locked) as you charge, deal damage, then the opponent just falls back and you don't get your free in combat shot. Though I guess you shoot them next turn anyway?

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#165
Trevak Dal

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Kinda sad about powerfists having -1 hit I think I'll be changing all my champs weapons to axes instead


Well, you can do that, but consider this.

Now in 7th, your most probable opponent is going to be hit on a 4+. Your champs will hit on a 4+ (unless they are zerkers or other ws5+ guys then maybe a 3+), and you go last.

If you are challenged (and aren't chaos) and don't accept, that 25 points does nothing. Or, you so challenge and get punked by ap2 at initiative or a guy with lightning claws, that 25 points is a waste.

In 8th...well no challenge so all Csms breathe a collective sigh of relief for that narrative having been forced for the last time.

But your guy with the powerfist will swing with all your guys and still at 4+. Not bad I think.
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#166
sfPanzer

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I'm still feeling like powerful pistols may be wasted in combat (unless you have ways to keep the enemy locked) as you charge, deal damage, then the opponent just falls back and you don't get your free in combat shot. Though I guess you shoot them next turn anyway?

Depends I guess. If your only other options are weapons that won't let you charge&shoot they aren't wasted at all. It could also be a way to force a unit to fall back since otherwise they might decide to stay in combat and bind your unit as well.


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#167
Lysere

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I'm still feeling like powerful pistols may be wasted in combat (unless you have ways to keep the enemy locked) as you charge, deal damage, then the opponent just falls back and you don't get your free in combat shot. Though I guess you shoot them next turn anyway?


Pretty sure they mentioned something about getting to shoot units that try and fallback or something. Pistols might still have some use there.

Also pistols feel like they're more for armies that don't do the charging but get charged instead to allow them to better hold their ground.
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#168
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Pretty sure they mentioned something about getting to shoot units that try and fallback or something.

 

No, they haven't so far.


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#169
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Pretty sure they mentioned something about getting to shoot units that try and fallback or something.

No, they haven't so far.

Just double checked and actually yes they have. Part of the movement article in fact.
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#170
Venomlust

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Pretty sure they mentioned something about getting to shoot units that try and fallback or something.

No, they haven't so far.

Just double checked and actually yes they have. Part of the movement article in fact.

That's the impression I got based on the wording in that article, but it hasn't been mentioned in any other context. I figured I was probably wrong. We'll see!

#171
sfPanzer

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Pretty sure they mentioned something about getting to shoot units that try and fallback or something.

No, they haven't so far.

Just double checked and actually yes they have. Part of the movement article in fact.

 

You mean this part?

"If you're in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back bymoving away from the enemy. You'll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot you!"

 

That could just as well mean that the enemy can shoot you since you aren't locked in combat anymore. And that's the way I (and most other) interpret the article it seems. As long as GW doesn't tell us that we can shoot at an enemy the instant they decide to fall back I don't believe it's possible.


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#172
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I'm still feeling like powerful pistols may be wasted in combat (unless you have ways to keep the enemy locked) as you charge, deal damage, then the opponent just falls back and you don't get your free in combat shot. Though I guess you shoot them next turn anyway?

It's funny to me. Your looking at it as if you've assaulted and they want to leave. Look at it as if you've been assaulted and you don't want to leave. 
I'm considering vets with Power Swords, plasma pistols and if it's allowed combie flamers.  And maybe one or two guys with storm shields to stand around and make saves.  If that's a unit I'm able to build via the rules.  

I think there was a question about units in combat shooting their pistols into the enemy unit that engaged them. That seems to have been confirmed in the transport article.


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#173
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I did not read that as I get to shoot as they fallback.
I read that as the enemy loses further actions that turn, but I suffer no penalties such as point blank shooting my turn.

We shall see though I guess!

#174
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Pretty sure they mentioned something about getting to shoot units that try and fallback or something.

No, they haven't so far.

Just double checked and actually yes they have. Part of the movement article in fact.

 

You mean this part?

"If you're in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back bymoving away from the enemy. You'll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot you!"

 

That could just as well mean that the enemy can shoot you since you aren't locked in combat anymore. And that's the way I (and most other) interpret the article it seems. As long as GW doesn't tell us that we can shoot at an enemy the instant they decide to fall back I don't believe it's possible.

 

 

Considering that you fall back in your own movement phase that seems weird to point out unless the unit you fall back from gets to do something but we shall see.

 

Either way pistols will still feel like a good choice for units that want to stay in combat even if charged and since the costs of pistols seems to be going down they should be much better than before.


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#175
Baluc

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The confusion is you are discussing someone speaking on rules. And, you know not the rules themselves.

It be like currently someone said you can "shoot a unit within the range of your guns." There is like 7 more rules needed to actually play the game.

I doubt you will be able to shoot into combat. About 100% certain you cannot, that is a big change and it would have come up. And, the off hand comment about shooting units that have fallen back is definitely not a rule.




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