Horus Heresy Battles with most impressive kill-ratios

[Brother Pheidias]

The antagonist legion will always suffer more casualties than the protagonist legion in a novelization. The FW books will be more accurate assessments of casualty figures.

Usually that is the case. The only one where it's never really the case would be Path of Heaven, where for every success the Scars are described as having, there's at least as many battles where they suffered gravely.

 

Including the concluding battle where the V. Legion barely manages to escape with anything resembling a fighting force, losing their flagship as well as a decent amount of warriors, while the Death Guard and Emperors Children get off rather well. But the desperation was one of the main points of that book, I guess

[bluntblade]

 

No, I would not say Prospero was a clean victory. It was conceived and steered by Horus to be anything but.

Istvaan V and the final battle of the Thramas Crusade are contenders, though

 

 

OK, but this still isn't about how clean the victory was, nor the politics or ramifications of the battle. It's about ratios, which is pretty objective.

 

OP had Calth at 2.4, and Prospero comes out to about the same in favor of the invaders. Consider that in both cases the attackers have the advantage of surprise, but in the Word Bearers' case they had time to deploy, set up roadblocks, enact rituals and then used devastating warp magic. The Censure Host has to enact a planetary landing against a psychic barrier, then they fight on the ground with no comms against warp magic. That's impressive, and I don't see why it doesn't deserve a mention here.

Clean was a bad choice of words. I did actually mean ratios.

[b1soul]

The Censure Host has to enact a planetary landing against a psychic barrier, then they fight on the ground with no comms against warp magic. That's impressive, and I don't see why it doesn't deserve a mention here.

...what?

 

Magnus practically rolled out the welcome mat for the invaders

 

No defense fleet

No pre-warning (Magnus killed a captain who wanted to warn the legion)

No TSons primarch on the battlefield until the very end

 

I think you're exaggerating the state of resistence met by the Host

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

That the entire city of Tizca might weather the might of their guns and bombs all but intact had not been predicted, and rather than a short mopping-up action against the shell-shocked remnants of the Thousand Sons, the Censure Host now faced a protracted campaign against a dug-in opponent whose numbers were dangerously close to their own.

 

He is not exaggerating, Inferno makes it very clear that the Wolves did not have the numbers needed to emphatically win (almost certainly something organised by Horus: he wanted both sides annihilated) once they realised Tizca had survived bombardment. That's not to say they didn't have an immense advantage, and pretty much everything goes wrong for the TS, but even with all these factors in their favour, Prospero was anything but a walk in the park for the Censure Host.

[b1soul]

Never said it was a walk in the park.

 

The Censure Host's victory was not "impressive" in my view, as Magnus helped to stack the odds heavily against his own sons.

 

I would be shocked if under those circumstances, the Host somehow lost.

 

It would be more apt to characterise the TSons' valiant defense in the face of overwhelming odds as "impressive"

[Marshal Loss]

I am not disputing your right to your 'view.' What you said was:

 

 

I think you're exaggerating the state of resistence met by the Host

 

Nothing he said was exaggerated at all. The resistance they faced is just as true as your points about Magnus' actions, regardless of opinion.

 

That being said, yes, their defence was indisputably valiant given the circumstances, and that is part of the tragedy. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[Baluc]

FW makes a very compelling case that no legion other than the SW with their uniqie abilites would have successfully assaulted the capital in that amount of time.

 

The 1kson were going to lose. But Inferno is very clear on just about this onr thing. They were going to destroy the legion that did so. The kill ratio is therefor extremely impressive.

[Liege]

FW makes a very compelling case that no legion other than the SW with their uniqie abilites would have successfully assaulted the capital in that amount of time.

 

The 1kson were going to lose. But Inferno is very clear on just about this onr thing. They were going to destroy the legion that did so. The kill ratio is therefor extremely impressive.

Brother Baluc, I'm sorry but unique abilities? Inferno says that we were in severe danging of losing our first assault and Russ along with it had Valdor not disobeyed his orders and deployed to save him. The Sons had no fleet, no planetary defence, no Primarch for most of the battle and no idea what was coming for them.....and what was coming for them was the Sisters of Silence, the worst possible enemy for any psyker to face as well as the Custodian Guard, who killed 4 Sekmet Terminators for every one they lost and that was BEFORE the Sisters showed up behind them.

 

2.5 - 1 is nowhere near extremely impressive in light of that, if it were Wolf vs Thousand Sons then sure, but having a Titan contingent, Imperial Guard, Custodians, Sisters of Silence and a company of Sons of Horus...along with a working fleet and a battle-plan and a Primarch for the entire fight along with Valdor who is near Primarch level......makes that 2.5 - 1 if anything impressive in the 1ksons favour.

 

My stance on Prospero has always been that the only winner was Chaos, the Wolves are my favourite legion but that battle was our greatest shame.

The quote by the way, showing that Valdor thought our assault would fail and we might lose our Primarch.

 

"Valdor's Intervention

With the main force of those Space Wolves on the planet fully engaged in combat and the reserves committed to a full-scale assault, the warriors of the first wave were dangerously overextended. Even as Leman Russ and his Varagyr were held at bay by the raw psychic fury of the Thousand Sons forces who blocked his path, more battalions of the crimson-armoured warriors gathered on his flanks by means of the warp portal nerwork, hoping to cut off Russ and slice the head from the beast ravaging Prospero. This plan had not gone unnoticed, as high above on the flagship of the Legio Custodes, the Oriflamme, Constantin Valdor had analysed the data from the fleet's orbital scans, which had suffered severe degradation from the aetheric static building up around Tizca, and noted the potential danger. Unable now to directly contact the Space Wolves Legion Primarch, or the small Legio Mortis maniple despatched to the wreck of the Zhao-Arkhad fane, the stern commander of the Emperor's guard measured Russ' orders to remain in orbit against the potential failure of the initial landing and concluded that his duty to the Emperor ourweighed Russ' commands, and ordered the Legio Custodes, Sisters of Silence and the attendant Imperial Army regiments to prepare for combat operations."

[1ncarnadine]

OK, maybe let's set aside Prospero. I think the only thing we've managed to conclude is that no one will agree to conclude anything about Prospero, and that way lies thread closure.

[Dantay VI]

Why does evrryone forget that its not just the T-Sons but Prosperine Guard and 2 other Imperial armies?

 

Istvaan 5 Would be the battle with best overall average I would have thought.

 

2 legions wiped out and a third decapitated.

 

Or Tallarn.

 

Spmething about 1 legion warring and leaving a dead word covered in Steel carcasses.

[Liege]

Do we have any more information on the battles that occurred during the White Scars skirmish tactics behind enemy lines? I know the books referred to it as 'reaping ruin on the Warmaster's advance' or something similar, so that must've had some decisive actions considering it was one legion skirmishing against many?

[depthcharge12]

How could anyone forget the Isstvaan massacre? :P

 

Also, there was that super old fluff of Tiger Eyes and EC trying to take that one world...what was it? Something with a "P" I think. But that's oooooold school. Like RT old. Maybe it was the same planet Khr Valen was on. I forget. But shizz went down.

 

Some old grognard come help a brotha out.

[bluntblade]

Do we have any more information on the battles that occurred during the White Scars skirmish tactics behind enemy lines? I know the books referred to it as 'reaping ruin on the Warmaster's advance' or something similar, so that must've had some decisive actions considering it was one legion skirmishing against many?

Opinion is divided until we get a black book. I think the Scars had a major effect - Horus dispatched 1.333 Legions to hunt them down - but the kill ratio is questionable. It's quite possible that, at the outset, they were inflicting major losses, but the enemy adapted. Certainly by the end of that campaign the Scars were taking severe losses, especially at Kalium.

[b1soul]

I am not disputing your right to your 'view.' What you said was:

 

 

I think you're exaggerating the state of resistence met by the Host

 

Nothing he said was exaggerated at all. The resistance they faced is just as true as your points about Magnus' actions, regardless of opinion.

1. If you're gonna nitpick my words, I'm gonna nitpick yours. I never said that Prospero would be a walk in the park. So why would you imply that I did?

 

2. I took issue with his statement that it was somehow "impressive" for the Host to overcome the Prosperine defense.

 

By "exaggerating the state of resistance", I meant he was exaggerating the difficulty faced by the Host. Pretty sure my point was made abundantly clear by the rest of my post (conveniently omitted by you in your effort to focus on one sentence):

 

Magnus practically rolled out the welcome mat for the invaders

 

No defense fleet

No pre-warning (Magnus killed a captain who wanted to warn the legion)

No TSons primarch on the battlefield until the very end

Yes, there were Warp shenanigans as he pointed out correctly, but in contrast to a planet with a defense fleet, with well-prepared defenders, with a committed primarch...Prospero was a very soft target. Edited May 25, 2017 by b1soul

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I thought we were moving past Prospero?

[bluntblade]

We should. Its relevance to the topic at hand is exhausted.

 

The battles detailed in Conquest might be contenders. I need to read more (aside: I like the idea of Abaddon beng the unknown SoH commander)

Edited May 26, 2017 by bluntblade

[HeritorA]

 

What would you say were some of the Horus Heresy Battle with the highest kill ratios in favor of one side. Please provide numbers if possible.

 

Personally I would say:

 

-The Battle of Sotha

 

Ultramarines score at least a 20-1 kill ratio over the Night Lords. A 25,000 strong force of Night Lords attack Sotha, garrisoned by 1000 13th Legion marines (2500 arrive as reinforcement) plus a smattering of shattered Legion warriors, and is almost completely wiped out while the Ultramarines lose less than 1500 warriors of their own.

 

-The Thramas Crusade

 

Dark Angels kill 1/5th of the Night Lords Legion and destroy their accopanying Titans with minimal losses

 

-Isstvan Massacre (Iron Hands vs. Emperor's Children segment)

 

EC kill the entire 1st company of the Iron Hands, their Primarch and nearly wipe out the rest of the Legion with moderate losses to themselves.

 

-Battle of Calth

 

While this was a (phyrric) Ultramarine victory, the Word Bearers score an impressive 2.4-1 kill ratio against the Ultramarines as a 50,000 strong force of Word Bearers struck at the assembled might of 200,000 Ultramarines. The Ultramarines suffer 120,000 dead and the Word Bearers are completely wiped out.

 

Wrong - at Thramas NL lost 1/3 of the Legion (Prince of Crows)

At Calth - not all WB were wiped out - at least part of the command hierarchy (mostly Dark Apostles) made pacts with daemons and left Calth via warp rifts and portals

[DogWelder]

 

 

What would you say were some of the Horus Heresy Battle with the highest kill ratios in favor of one side. Please provide numbers if possible.

 

Personally I would say:

 

-The Battle of Sotha

 

Ultramarines score at least a 20-1 kill ratio over the Night Lords. A 25,000 strong force of Night Lords attack Sotha, garrisoned by 1000 13th Legion marines (2500 arrive as reinforcement) plus a smattering of shattered Legion warriors, and is almost completely wiped out while the Ultramarines lose less than 1500 warriors of their own.

 

-The Thramas Crusade

 

Dark Angels kill 1/5th of the Night Lords Legion and destroy their accopanying Titans with minimal losses

 

-Isstvan Massacre (Iron Hands vs. Emperor's Children segment)

 

EC kill the entire 1st company of the Iron Hands, their Primarch and nearly wipe out the rest of the Legion with moderate losses to themselves.

 

-Battle of Calth

 

While this was a (phyrric) Ultramarine victory, the Word Bearers score an impressive 2.4-1 kill ratio against the Ultramarines as a 50,000 strong force of Word Bearers struck at the assembled might of 200,000 Ultramarines. The Ultramarines suffer 120,000 dead and the Word Bearers are completely wiped out.

 

Wrong - at Thramas NL lost 1/3 of the Legion (Prince of Crows)

At Calth - not all WB were wiped out - at least part of the command hierarchy (mostly Dark Apostles) made pacts with daemons and left Calth via warp rifts and portals

 

Was it a third? I'm sure I heard 25% in the audiobook. Then again I might have gotten it wrong.

 

As for Calth, yeah I was mostly approximating there. Kor Phaeron and some of his subordinates escaped the flagship through the warp before it was destroyed. I'm not sure about the Word Bearers on the ground though. I thought Kurtha Sedd would have escaped but he was killed by Thiel in the "Censure" audio drama. The only one who escaped was Maloq Kartho who became a demon prince. However, he died a true death (he was erased from existence) in the end of the Ultramarines Omnibus.

[RandomMarine]

Only 10% of the IH legion strength made it to istavaan. We are the biggest shattered legion

[DogWelder]

Only 10% of the IH legion strength made it to istavaan. We are the biggest shattered legion

 

Really? From the wiki, I thought the IH were almost wiped out by the end of the Heresy

[1ncarnadine]

Starting Legion strength of around 113,000 pre-Heresy, then an estimated two thirds of the Iron Hands made it to the Isstvan system for the beginning of that operation. More transited in system and were wiped out in their "tens of thousands," according to Massacre. Although 10% making it onto the surface of the planet itself might be right. I'm basically just going off the War Disposition section of Massacre, don't remember what Fulgrim or even another part of this book might have said.

 

Then of course quite a few went insane after the death of Ferrus Manus, and it can be assumed that many Iron Hands spent their lives poorly in the next few years. They are the biggest shattered Legion for sure, though.

Edited June 24, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[Memento Of Prospero]

If memlry serves, in the dreadful Damnation of Pythos, the Iron Hands Cruiser destroys a 3 ship armada of Emperor's children (including a battle barge) in a brutal ambush at the Mandeville point, resulting in the loss of nearly 4,000 EC troops and retainers with extremely minimal losses to the Iron Hands.

 

This is probably the best kill ratio in a large scale engagement I can think of.

[RandomMarine]

If I remember right the 10% comes from fulgrim but fw fluff overrides it. But yeah largest shattered for sure