Air Assault Legions

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

 

But...

 

Have any of the Legions utilized any sort of "Air Assault" tactics? Not to be confused with Drop Troops or Drop pod Assault tactics. I mean units both light and heavy being deployed by Aircraft such as Caestus and storm eagles (possibly Thunderhawks/Stormbirds as well) with their main support coming from other similar types of airframes.

[Marshal Rohr]

Raven Guard and Blood Angels.

 

Also consider as expeditionary forces, the use of air assault tactics is universal. In the same way us marines use assault helicopters and larger ones to move from sea to land, every legion will have an omnipresent air element in any type of operation, be it armored maneuver, orbital assault, or even 'light' infantry patrolling.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Raven Guard and Blood Angels.

Also consider as expeditionary forces, the use of air assault tactics is universal. In the same way us marines use assault helicopters and larger ones to move from sea to land, every legion will have an omnipresent air element in any type of operation, be it armored maneuver, orbital assault, or even 'light' infantry patrolling.

Yeah, I don't so mean to get into which Legions used the tactic specifically... I'm sure any of the more Assault oriented Legions would have or could.. just wondered if it was a standard tactic that was utilized and you answered that as well. That's pretty cool then! I have no idea how it would play on the table top or if it would just be better to use them as a supplemental force for the guys already on the table but the idea seems so cool!

[Marshal Loss]

Sons of Horus launch a speartip at Manachea using masses of Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks and Stormbirds in HH: Conquest

[Marshal Rohr]

Sons of Horus launch a speartip at Manachea using masses of Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks and Stormbirds in HH: Conquest

Also, the best visual in any black book so far. You can practically see the larger condor pattern stormbirds and v formations of sokars with buzzing thunder hawks and storm eagles.

[foamy248]

Yeah, BA and Raven Guard are the obvious choices - the BA being very much 'shock and awe' tactics, while RG being more covert.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, BA and Raven Guard are the obvious choices - the BA being very much 'shock and awe' tactics, while RG being more covert.

Only a minority of pathfinder and reconaissance units in the Raven Guard fit the 'covert' archetype. The rest fall into line with the majority of other legion abilities. Each legion has a special flavor, but those flavors are small units and not indicative of the legion as a whole.

[Charlo]

Surprisingly, the Thousand Sons also love air assault.

 

There is a whole double page spread in Inferno about how they love Xiphon's and will often use aircraft in their campaigns and prefer not to use traditional armour.

[bluntblade]

I figure White Scars would go for it as well because speed, and the EC as a chance to show off :p

[Dantay VI]

Didnt Argonis of the SoH lead an air wing assigned to the First company?

He was in the Tallarn books

[bluntblade]

Surprisingly, the Thousand Sons also love air assault.

 

There is a whole double page spread in Inferno about how they love Xiphon's and will often use aircraft in their campaigns and prefer not to use traditional armour.

To be fair, ATS did demonstrate that Corvidae can really add to the viability of gunship spearheads. Not to mention how Pyrae get sniffy about tanks and traditional artillery.

[malika666]

 

Sons of Horus launch a speartip at Manachea using masses of Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks and Stormbirds in HH: Conquest

Also, the best visual in any black book so far. You can practically see the larger condor pattern stormbirds and v formations of sokars with buzzing thunder hawks and storm eagles.

 

What's a 'Condor pattern stormbird'?

[Demonl]

 

Sons of Horus launch a speartip at Manachea using masses of Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks and Stormbirds in HH: Conquest

Also, the best visual in any black book so far. You can practically see the larger condor pattern stormbirds and v formations of sokars with buzzing thunder hawks and storm eagles.

 

 

What page?

[bluntblade]

 

 

Sons of Horus launch a speartip at Manachea using masses of Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks and Stormbirds in HH: Conquest

Also, the best visual in any black book so far. You can practically see the larger condor pattern stormbirds and v formations of sokars with buzzing thunder hawks and storm eagles.

What's a 'Condor pattern stormbird'?

A big Stormbird. Warhawks are apparently the standard version, and the Sokhar is one of three classes used exclusively by the Thousand Sons.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

All legions are profficiant in all ways of warefare.

 

Just some legions may prefer a particular approach more so than others for morale, tactical or even ritualistic purposes.

[bluntblade]

 

 

Sons of Horus launch a speartip at Manachea using masses of Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks and Stormbirds in HH: Conquest

 

Also, the best visual in any black book so far. You can practically see the larger condor pattern stormbirds and v formations of sokars with buzzing thunder hawks and storm eagles.

 

What page?

Not sure which page, but it's the Battle of Port Maw.

[Biscuittzz]

Only a minority of pathfinder and reconaissance units in the Raven Guard fit the 'covert' archetype. The rest fall into line with the majority of other legion abilities.

That's what we want you to believe.

[Kais Klip]

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

 

Too soon. 

 

Yes, Air Assault would be universal among the legions. Orbital assault in itself would occur more often than not, seeing as it's really the amphibious landing version for Space MARINES. 

 

But the question I think you're more interested is how common was air assault/transport once the forces were already deployed and established on the ground; this is 30k we're talking about, so the Astartes were not relegated to special ops duties. In that case, you'd have to look at each legion's preferences, assuming their specialties and preferred methods of operation are in play.

 

For example: 

 

The Death Guard certainly wouldn't have much love for air support, given the fallout between aircraft's limited "standby" time and the legion's preference for constant pressure with the enemy. Waiting for their aircraft to re-arm and re-fuel certainly wouldn't rub them the right way. 

 

The Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors would certainly focus on maintaining air supremacy for as long as possible, but you could argue either way whether they would have a host of air assets reserved for last-minute extraction duties or if they would instead modify them to contribute further to the battle for air supremacy over a hold-out. 

 

The World Eaters would most likely prefer to unload their troops and then use their transport aircraft as a screening shield for more valuable air assets. An Air Force implanted with the Butcher's Nails would be the right kind of hilarious. 

 

The Raven Guard (as demonstrated during the Wolf Cull) would love it, given the quick hit and run nature of their engagements and the need to preposition their forces quickly. 

 

Etc.

 

On the contrary, there is a lot more to discuss in these sort of topics than "all the legions were the same", when quite clearly they were not. Modern militaries are all built to fight the same wars, albeit in significantly varying ways (doctrines). The fact that everyone from NCO's to high-level generals need to undergo significant training in order to effectively lead allied forces even within "homogenous" military coalitions should serve to back my point up nicely. 

 

In-universe, remember that Terran White Scars struggled to adjust to Chogorian White Scar battle tactics, and this was only intra-legion, as opposed to inter-legion.

 

Can we please put this stupid idea of "they're all different colours of Ultramarine" to rest, since it was only said to promote originality, instead of limiting it. 

[bluntblade]

The Death Guard have been mentioned in the Istvaan III Atrocity as using bulk landers when their allies deployed by gunship. Add to that Mortarion's fondness for teleporting into a theatre.

[Warhead01]

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

 

But...

 

Have any of the Legions utilized any sort of "Air Assault" tactics? Not to be confused with Drop Troops or Drop pod Assault tactics. I mean units both light and heavy being deployed by Aircraft such as Caestus and storm eagles (possibly Thunderhawks/Stormbirds as well) with their main support coming from other similar types of airframes.

It's an interesting question. 

I wonder how practical it would actually be for the legions. Is it more practical for a legion to droppod more troops and vehicles from Orbit or to commit resources, vehicles, fuel and manpower to pick up and move the fighting forces already on the ground. Air Assault has it's place maybe more so in 40K than in 30K. I only say that due to the size of the operations and support the Legions have vs a Space Marine chapters size. Part of  the reason for Air Assault is that it is used to own the battle space.  

One of the things I think that is missing is a means to move not just troops but vehicles in large numbers from one place to another. (in 40K) There are a few specialized vehicles for that but not many. (as far as I know)  I'll grant you the legions/Space Marines are fast and capable for sure but they have to have the logistical support to effectively use Air Assault.

I'm thinking about what we did in the Army moving huge chunks all over the place. Teams having vehicles and equipment slingloaded, troops riding in helicopters all that kinda stuff. 

These thing take a good amount of time and coordination. So I wonder if sending things down from Orbit during a battle would be more effective.  

I have no idea which Legion would use Air Assault the most or at all. AS far as missions for platoon sized elements, sure we have Land speeders, assault marines all that kinda stuff.

So a commander just has to use the right tool for the tight job to complete the mission. 

[Grey Mage]

Well and thats an interesting note- how many marines are in the theatre? While full legion deployments, ish, did happen, we know for a fact that normally a legion was spread out throughout an entire sector or more doing various acts of liberation or conversion.

A single chapter of marines would likely use air power to magnify their effect upon a planetary war while those involved in mop up situations, sieges if you will, would be less likely to need it and only use it as a matter of preference.

[RandomMarine]

I can't think of a single in universe example of the IH using aerial assault tactics

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

Too soon.

 

Yes, Air Assault would be universal among the legions. Orbital assault in itself would occur more often than not, seeing as it's really the amphibious landing version for Space MARINES.

 

But the question I think you're more interested is how common was air assault/transport once the forces were already deployed and established on the ground; this is 30k we're talking about, so the Astartes were not relegated to special ops duties. In that case, you'd have to look at each legion's preferences, assuming their specialties and preferred methods of operation are in play.

 

For example:

 

The Death Guard certainly wouldn't have much love for air support, given the fallout between aircraft's limited "standby" time and the legion's preference for constant pressure with the enemy. Waiting for their aircraft to re-arm and re-fuel certainly wouldn't rub them the right way.

 

The Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors would certainly focus on maintaining air supremacy for as long as possible, but you could argue either way whether they would have a host of air assets reserved for last-minute extraction duties or if they would instead modify them to contribute further to the battle for air supremacy over a hold-out.

 

The World Eaters would most likely prefer to unload their troops and then use their transport aircraft as a screening shield for more valuable air assets. An Air Force implanted with the Butcher's Nails would be the right kind of hilarious.

 

The Raven Guard (as demonstrated during the Wolf Cull) would love it, given the quick hit and run nature of their engagements and the need to preposition their forces quickly.

 

Etc.

 

On the contrary, there is a lot more to discuss in these sort of topics than "all the legions were the same", when quite clearly they were not. Modern militaries are all built to fight the same wars, albeit in significantly varying ways (doctrines). The fact that everyone from NCO's to high-level generals need to undergo significant training in order to effectively lead allied forces even within "homogenous" military coalitions should serve to back my point up nicely.

 

In-universe, remember that Terran White Scars struggled to adjust to Chogorian White Scar battle tactics, and this was only intra-legion, as opposed to inter-legion.

 

Can we please put this stupid idea of "they're all different colours of Ultramarine" to rest, since it was only said to promote originality, instead of limiting it.

You are intentionally missing the point of 'every legion was the same'. A rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman. A soviet rifleman has to do the exact same thing as a Wehrmacht rifles as a Americans paratrooper as a Royal Marine. It's universal. What isn't universal is how they are used.

 

So yes, every legion is a different color ultramarine and every ultramarine is a blue version of another legion. Each legion will have reconnaissance elements, jet bike detachments, ad infinitatum. This was explicitly pointed out in book one. This is the most important part of understanding thenlegions because 'White Scars like bikes' or 'Death Guard like infantry' is a narrative flavoring. You're just as likely to find Death a guard skimmer wings and White Scars infantry companies. It's just necessary.

[Kais Klip]

 

 

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

Too soon.

 

Yes, Air Assault would be universal among the legions. Orbital assault in itself would occur more often than not, seeing as it's really the amphibious landing version for Space MARINES.

 

But the question I think you're more interested is how common was air assault/transport once the forces were already deployed and established on the ground; this is 30k we're talking about, so the Astartes were not relegated to special ops duties. In that case, you'd have to look at each legion's preferences, assuming their specialties and preferred methods of operation are in play.

 

For example:

 

The Death Guard certainly wouldn't have much love for air support, given the fallout between aircraft's limited "standby" time and the legion's preference for constant pressure with the enemy. Waiting for their aircraft to re-arm and re-fuel certainly wouldn't rub them the right way.

 

The Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors would certainly focus on maintaining air supremacy for as long as possible, but you could argue either way whether they would have a host of air assets reserved for last-minute extraction duties or if they would instead modify them to contribute further to the battle for air supremacy over a hold-out.

 

The World Eaters would most likely prefer to unload their troops and then use their transport aircraft as a screening shield for more valuable air assets. An Air Force implanted with the Butcher's Nails would be the right kind of hilarious.

 

The Raven Guard (as demonstrated during the Wolf Cull) would love it, given the quick hit and run nature of their engagements and the need to preposition their forces quickly.

 

Etc.

 

On the contrary, there is a lot more to discuss in these sort of topics than "all the legions were the same", when quite clearly they were not. Modern militaries are all built to fight the same wars, albeit in significantly varying ways (doctrines). The fact that everyone from NCO's to high-level generals need to undergo significant training in order to effectively lead allied forces even within "homogenous" military coalitions should serve to back my point up nicely.

 

In-universe, remember that Terran White Scars struggled to adjust to Chogorian White Scar battle tactics, and this was only intra-legion, as opposed to inter-legion.

 

Can we please put this stupid idea of "they're all different colours of Ultramarine" to rest, since it was only said to promote originality, instead of limiting it.

You are intentionally missing the point of 'every legion was the same'. A rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman. A soviet rifleman has to do the exact same thing as a Wehrmacht rifles as a Americans paratrooper as a Royal Marine. It's universal. What isn't universal is how they are used.

 

So yes, every legion is a different color ultramarine and every ultramarine is a blue version of another legion. Each legion will have reconnaissance elements, jet bike detachments, ad infinitatum. This was explicitly pointed out in book one. This is the most important part of understanding thenlegions because 'White Scars like bikes' or 'Death Guard like infantry' is a narrative flavoring. You're just as likely to find Death a guard skimmer wings and White Scars infantry companies. It's just necessary.

 

 

I'm not sure how you disagree with me via your first paragraph. Both of us are saying the end is the same while the means are different. 

 

Again, you do not seem to disagree with me via your second paragraph either. 

 

My entire focus was on the utilization of air assets by each legion, and how it differed. In other words, what the difference was in the use of their air assets. Again, exactly what you said. 

 

The only thing I can find to counter argue in your point is me "intentionally missing the point of "every legion was the same". Their constitution may have been similar at the onset of the great crusade, but within a few decades it changes very quickly. The forgeworld books themselves mention this; Luna Wolves never favored, nor held, many numbers of breacher units for example. 

 

Just because I'm feeling belligerent, its you that are missing the point of "every legion was the same": This is our modern "Principa Bellicosa".

 

 

This composition holds true as much for the Russian armed forces as it does for the Americans. Just like it would hold true for the World Eaters and the Ultramarines. That's all the Principa Bellicosa is. It's a leadership structure chart. It is not an operational force organisation chart. 

 

The entire difference lies when you put the whole thing within a combined arms composition; and in that case this chart no longer applies, because the Russians/World Eaters now have dedicated AA assets dispersed throughout each level of this structure, while the Americans focus it at Division level. AKA you have different numbers of specific units found within your Force Organisation, depending on what level your FO is; also know as 8th Edition's detachment charts. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

 

Too soon. 

 

Yes, Air Assault would be universal among the legions. Orbital assault in itself would occur more often than not, seeing as it's really the amphibious landing version for Space MARINES. 

 

But the question I think you're more interested is how common was air assault/transport once the forces were already deployed and established on the ground; this is 30k we're talking about, so the Astartes were not relegated to special ops duties. In that case, you'd have to look at each legion's preferences, assuming their specialties and preferred methods of operation are in play.

 

For example: 

 

The Death Guard certainly wouldn't have much love for air support, given the fallout between aircraft's limited "standby" time and the legion's preference for constant pressure with the enemy. Waiting for their aircraft to re-arm and re-fuel certainly wouldn't rub them the right way. 

 

The Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors would certainly focus on maintaining air supremacy for as long as possible, but you could argue either way whether they would have a host of air assets reserved for last-minute extraction duties or if they would instead modify them to contribute further to the battle for air supremacy over a hold-out. 

 

The World Eaters would most likely prefer to unload their troops and then use their transport aircraft as a screening shield for more valuable air assets. An Air Force implanted with the Butcher's Nails would be the right kind of hilarious. 

 

The Raven Guard (as demonstrated during the Wolf Cull) would love it, given the quick hit and run nature of their engagements and the need to preposition their forces quickly. 

 

Etc.

 

On the contrary, there is a lot more to discuss in these sort of topics than "all the legions were the same", when quite clearly they were not. Modern militaries are all built to fight the same wars, albeit in significantly varying ways (doctrines). The fact that everyone from NCO's to high-level generals need to undergo significant training in order to effectively lead allied forces even within "homogenous" military coalitions should serve to back my point up nicely. 

 

In-universe, remember that Terran White Scars struggled to adjust to Chogorian White Scar battle tactics, and this was only intra-legion, as opposed to inter-legion.

 

Can we please put this stupid idea of "they're all different colours of Ultramarine" to rest, since it was only said to promote originality, instead of limiting it. 

 

 

To the point, I am interested in dedicated assault units using aircraft to get into the fight instead of Land Raiders or Drop Pods. I do understand the Drop Pods are the main way legions would have conducted this kind of warfare... in the fluff. My main legion is going to be the World Eaters and I thought it would look different and pretty epic to have a bunch of nastiness deploy via Storm Eagles and then have those transports, as well as a fire raptor, provide the close air support/overwatch as needed. It would not be what my whole army would be designed around but 2 units in Storm Eagles would be pretty cool. Just to reiterate this is all going to be applicable to the World Eaters specifically. That is why I was asking about what legions would do in general.. since all legions operated with similar doctrine I figured i might have a fluffy argument for an army theme that would look cool and different.

 

 

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

 

But...

 

Have any of the Legions utilized any sort of "Air Assault" tactics? Not to be confused with Drop Troops or Drop pod Assault tactics. I mean units both light and heavy being deployed by Aircraft such as Caestus and storm eagles (possibly Thunderhawks/Stormbirds as well) with their main support coming from other similar types of airframes.

It's an interesting question. 

I wonder how practical it would actually be for the legions. Is it more practical for a legion to droppod more troops and vehicles from Orbit or to commit resources, vehicles, fuel and manpower to pick up and move the fighting forces already on the ground. Air Assault has it's place maybe more so in 40K than in 30K. I only say that due to the size of the operations and support the Legions have vs a Space Marine chapters size. Part of  the reason for Air Assault is that it is used to own the battle space.  

One of the things I think that is missing is a means to move not just troops but vehicles in large numbers from one place to another. (in 40K) There are a few specialized vehicles for that but not many. (as far as I know)  I'll grant you the legions/Space Marines are fast and capable for sure but they have to have the logistical support to effectively use Air Assault.

I'm thinking about what we did in the Army moving huge chunks all over the place. Teams having vehicles and equipment slingloaded, troops riding in helicopters all that kinda stuff. 

These thing take a good amount of time and coordination. So I wonder if sending things down from Orbit during a battle would be more effective.  

I have no idea which Legion would use Air Assault the most or at all. AS far as missions for platoon sized elements, sure we have Land speeders, assault marines all that kinda stuff.

So a commander just has to use the right tool for the tight job to complete the mission. 

 

 

You're absolutely right. I am not in the Army.. I'm in the Air Force (and in a very un-operational job at that) but I have been obsessed with everything Special Operations related since I was a kid. I was talking do my dad about air assault utilization and he basically said the same thing as you. It's very hard to implement because of the logistical strain and the fact that those assets are so hard to support. I feel like, in support of a larger operation, the legions would be able to support a quick strike force deploying via aircraft as the spear head assault force. I do believe Drop Pods were the main way they went about this.. but It would look so much cooler (not to mention be different from the norm) to have them deploy via Storm Eagles. My World Eaters are Isstvan III based and I feel it would definitely be pretty fitting to have them deploy via Storm Eagles. 

 

 

So I know there is not a lot of crossover between modern military tactics and what Legions use tactically and that topics on the how these tactics relate is frowned upon...

Too soon.

 

Yes, Air Assault would be universal among the legions. Orbital assault in itself would occur more often than not, seeing as it's really the amphibious landing version for Space MARINES.

 

But the question I think you're more interested is how common was air assault/transport once the forces were already deployed and established on the ground; this is 30k we're talking about, so the Astartes were not relegated to special ops duties. In that case, you'd have to look at each legion's preferences, assuming their specialties and preferred methods of operation are in play.

 

For example:

 

The Death Guard certainly wouldn't have much love for air support, given the fallout between aircraft's limited "standby" time and the legion's preference for constant pressure with the enemy. Waiting for their aircraft to re-arm and re-fuel certainly wouldn't rub them the right way.

 

The Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors would certainly focus on maintaining air supremacy for as long as possible, but you could argue either way whether they would have a host of air assets reserved for last-minute extraction duties or if they would instead modify them to contribute further to the battle for air supremacy over a hold-out.

 

The World Eaters would most likely prefer to unload their troops and then use their transport aircraft as a screening shield for more valuable air assets. An Air Force implanted with the Butcher's Nails would be the right kind of hilarious.

 

The Raven Guard (as demonstrated during the Wolf Cull) would love it, given the quick hit and run nature of their engagements and the need to preposition their forces quickly.

 

Etc.

 

On the contrary, there is a lot more to discuss in these sort of topics than "all the legions were the same", when quite clearly they were not. Modern militaries are all built to fight the same wars, albeit in significantly varying ways (doctrines). The fact that everyone from NCO's to high-level generals need to undergo significant training in order to effectively lead allied forces even within "homogenous" military coalitions should serve to back my point up nicely.

 

In-universe, remember that Terran White Scars struggled to adjust to Chogorian White Scar battle tactics, and this was only intra-legion, as opposed to inter-legion.

 

Can we please put this stupid idea of "they're all different colours of Ultramarine" to rest, since it was only said to promote originality, instead of limiting it.

You are intentionally missing the point of 'every legion was the same'. A rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman is a rifleman. A soviet rifleman has to do the exact same thing as a Wehrmacht rifles as a Americans paratrooper as a Royal Marine. It's universal. What isn't universal is how they are used.

 

So yes, every legion is a different color ultramarine and every ultramarine is a blue version of another legion. Each legion will have reconnaissance elements, jet bike detachments, ad infinitatum. This was explicitly pointed out in book one. This is the most important part of understanding thenlegions because 'White Scars like bikes' or 'Death Guard like infantry' is a narrative flavoring. You're just as likely to find Death a guard skimmer wings and White Scars infantry companies. It's just necessary.

 

 

Yeah you pretty much follow what I'm getting at. It is my hopes that if using Storm Eagles in some quick strike force was a tactic the legions used maybe I could get away with saying my World Eater operate in such fashion. Especially considering that other than their preference to close in fights they functioned very closely to the way most legions operated.