Relentless Rapiers for SoH

[Rangaman]

I had a game today using Sons of Horus and The Long March, this gives units in your deployment zone Relentless.

 

How does LA:SoH interact with Rapiers?

 

 

The argument made was that the Rapiers do not have LA and so do not get to move and shoot, Relentless is not conferred etc.

 

My understanding is that artillery is fired by a crewman, if the crewman has LA:SoH then would he not be able to move and shoot?

 

I am interested to hear peoples thoughts on this

[ROBOcaster]

The gun does not fire itself, the gunner who has LA(SOH) fires the gun, like this is basic and known in rules for Artillery. So yes you're correct move the gun and fire it. Anyone who argues it is just upset they picked a weaker legion. ;)

[1ncarnadine]

The Long March specifies that infantry units receive special rules, not infantry models. The Rapier, crew and all, is an artillery unit. 

 

This has been brought up before, too: 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/321068-the-long-march-and-artillery/?hl=%2Blong+%2Bmarch&do=findComment&comment=4360291

[Rangaman]

Okay that makes sense LetsYouDown, thanks for the discussion link. My only gripe here is that if the LA rule is played this way, where the whole unit must be Infantry to gain the benefit of being LA, then why bother putting the rule on half an artillery unit and does this also render Infiltrating Alpha Legion Rapiers illegal?

[Dono1979]

Okay that makes sense LetsYouDown, thanks for the discussion link. My only gripe here is that if the LA rule is played this way, where the whole unit must be Infantry to gain the benefit of being LA, then why bother putting the rule on half an artillery unit and does this also render Infiltrating Alpha Legion Rapiers illegal?

 

Because once the Guns are dead and if you have any crew left, they become a 'new' unit which is comprised entirely of Infantry models and so the LA rules then kick in.

[1ncarnadine]

Okay that makes sense LetsYouDown, thanks for the discussion link. My only gripe here is that if the LA rule is played this way, where the whole unit must be Infantry to gain the benefit of being LA, then why bother putting the rule on half an artillery unit and does this also render Infiltrating Alpha Legion Rapiers illegal?

 

Legiones Astartes (whatever) is just a special rule, and anything with LA(whatever) gains the relevant bonuses. So your Rapier crews with Legiones Astartes (Sons of Horus) will still get the benefit of +1BS from Death Dealer if they fire bolt pistols at an enemy within 12", Alpha Legion Rapiers will still get Mutable Tactics (what they choose, such as Infiltrate), etc. 

 

The Long March Rite of War applies further special rules to Infantry units who have Legiones Astartes (Sons of Horus). Rapiers are simply not Infantry units, but Artillery units. The confusion comes down to there being crew models who behave as infantry for movement & combat, making them infantry models, but not an infantry unit. Does that all track? 

 

To devil's advocate myself, you could argue that Rapiers are both an Infantry and an Artillery unit. But we have a few reasons to not treat it this way. The BRB's unit type section suggests it should only be an Artillery unit (“The unit Artillery units consist of a number of crew models and the gun models themselves. These units can include several different types of models.”), and we also don't treat Raven Guard jump troops as both Infantry and Jump Infantry for the purposes of their "By Wing and Talon" special rule.

[Rangaman]

I might sound dense here but please help me understand, how does Alpha Legion Artillery gain Mutable Tatics if the whole unit does not have LA:AL?

 

I understand that SoH wont be getting Relentless Rapiers from The Long March, but this is almost the exact same case for AL's Mutable Tactics, is it not?

 

As a point of interest, Raven Guard can gain Infiltrate on Rapiers due to By Wing & Talon only requiring models with LA whereas Alpha Legions Mutable Tactics requires units.

[1ncarnadine]

Hmmm OK, I see where you're coming from now. If the Legiones Astartes rules apply to units with the rule and the Rapier itself doesn't have the rule, the unit doesn't have the rule, right? 

 

No clue! Dono might be 100% right on the RAW here; maybe they don't have LA unless their guns are destroyed and the crew roam free (which is a rare occurrence), although that implies they also don't get something like the basic LA regrouping bonus while they're on their guns. That doesn't really make sense but it definitely wouldn't be the only thing in this game. Bizarre.

 

I tried checking the Militia Rapiers and their Provenances of War to see if there was a similar case, but those actually do call out "all eligible units and models."

[Slips]

The reason why Raven Guard and Alpha Legion rapiers can infiltrate is because how special rules work: only a single model in a unit needs to have the rule to infiltrate. Since the crewmen get infiltrat through their LA and are part of a unit with the artillery, it gets conferred to the gun and thus theynall have the rule and can make use of it.

 

Relentless doesnt work because its not a conferrable rule.

[Rangaman]

Ah right, see I think I am gettong hung up on the wording used. Ravenguard call out any MODEL with LA, so they would confer Infiltrate this way but Mutable Tactics calls for a unit with LA, Rapiers are Artillery that contains models with the rule.

 

I dont know, I'll leave this to rest.

[1ncarnadine]

Yeah, same. Definitely knew Infiltrate and Scout conferred, I was more concerned with Mutable Tactics calling out units over models. I hesitated to go further, because the RAW rabbit hole runs deep. 

[Brofist]

The reason why Raven Guard and Alpha Legion rapiers can infiltrate is because how special rules work: only a single model in a unit needs to have the rule to infiltrate. Since the crewmen get infiltrat through their LA and are part of a unit with the artillery, it gets conferred to the gun and thus theynall have the rule and can make use of it.

Relentless doesnt work because its not a conferrable rule.

Which puts us back to square one because it's the relentless SoH model shooting a heavy weapon and not the rapier

[Dono1979]

Which has already been covered, only Infantry Units, not models get the Relentless rule. Rapiers units are Artillery units, not Infantry, they do not get the rule.

[Sanct]

The reason why Raven Guard and Alpha Legion rapiers can infiltrate is because how special rules work: only a single model in a unit needs to have the rule to infiltrate. Since the crewmen get infiltrat through their LA and are part of a unit with the artillery, it gets conferred to the gun and thus theynall have the rule and can make use of it.

Relentless doesnt work because its not a conferrable rule.

Which puts us back to square one because it's the relentless SoH model shooting a heavy weapon and not the rapier

If it looks like cheese, smells like cheese and goes brilliantly with wine and branston pickle....then it's probably cheese.

Basically you're arguing that heavy squads can't fire a lascannon after moving because they forgot to bring a trolley

And still end up against dono's point.