Primaris and the Black Templars

[d3m01iti0n]

Cool artwork but it won't convince me to buy in. I prefer to vote with Tac boxes and BT sprue, let em know what sells. Otherwise our flair goes the way of the dodo.

 

Unless you want your future to be tabardless.

[TheOneTrueZon]

Detail pics of the new tank extracted from the vid:

 

http://i.imgur.com/vB7MDKR.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/QnhYDyp.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/1o37JaL.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/Klm7v9n.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/ubhURj3.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/rSyZQ6M.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/qleM1xT.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/LxgSPVm.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/95nPzDr.png

[BitsHammer]

I feel a need to pull my post about the new stuff from the ZEAL Rising thread since it has to do with how I take the stuff we're seeing.

 

 

To be a little more serious response, considering how set in their ways the Imperium became after the loss of the Emperor and his sons, it's not really a surprise that some Scouring-era projects that were mothballed would be resumed once their sponsor showed back up.

 

So the Primaris Marine project is finally completed and released now that a Primarch can go "It's all good guys, it's not Heresy, I promise!" and with it comes a lot of other things that support the new Marines and their three extra squiggly bit implants.

 

That said, if it wasn't for how turbo-screwed the Imperium is right now such things would have been shunned immediately. Massive numbers of chapters suffered casualties in the recent events, and apparently the current ones too. Some chapters were outright lost as their homes were right in the path of the massive warp rift that tore the galaxy in twain. We have daemons and chaos showing up EVERYWHERE while Tau are popping up all over the place as their 4th (and maybe 5th) Expansion accidently use the warp rift to basically show up anywhere and everywhere. The Tyranids nearly wiped out ALL of the Sons of Baal, successors and parent chapter alike. Even the Black Templars lost an entire crusade of hundreds (if not potentially thousands) of Templars.

 

Basically, the only reason any of this flies in the face of strict dogma about not resurrecting old tech without an STC, or trying to improve anything (recall that the Marine combat knife only got better because they found an STC for it, not because someone figured out metallurgy on their own to improve it). Cawl may be a walking repository of lost tech, but since that tech was lost (likely in the civil war on Mars during the Heresy) and those STCs don't exist anymore, it would normally be heresy to do what he's currently doing for the Imperium.

 

Such progress without restraint, regardless of the source, basically serves as a way to escalate tensions internal to the Imperium, give cause to have Imperial factions fighting each other as tensions rise and potentially set us up for a civil war as those who refuse to bend from their blind dogmatic adherence to the Codex (which was supposed to be a living tactical document, not the largely incomplete thing that some people worship with such fervor that a Sister would blush) and refuse to bring back old technology without specific blueprints telling you how to tighten the screws properly, clash with Guilliman and his ancient viewpoint of the Imperium being an organization of progress instead of blind regression.

 

It has a ton of potential for a great story but I have a feeling people look past that and go "NO PROGRESS IN MAH IMPERIUM!". Which, while in character for the setting as a whole, doesn't fit the sort of mentality the Templars should have in my opinion.

 

The Great Crusade was about bringing the Imperial Truth to the teeming masses of humanity and uplifting them from their blind ignorance. As the ONLY CHAPTER that has upheld the tenants of that time, the Templars should be the first in line to accept a Great Crusade mentality of progress for humanity instead of blind regression. Sure a Smurf was responsible for it, but "NO PITY, NO REMORSE, NO FEAR!" never said anything about "NO PROGRESS!".

 

Anything that enables the Great Crusade to resume as it should is something the Templars should be embracing, not shunning like we're one of the backwards lesser chapters who are too embroiled in their secrets or heretical mutant brethren.

 

Basically, if it crusades like a Templar, fights like a Templar, kills like a Templar and has the ZEAL of a Templar, it's a bloody Templar and I'll welcome it in my Crusade.

 

Unless said thing is a lost Ork who has been convinced he's a Templar. Then I'm flushing him out of an airlock after tying him to an Exterminatus round.

[AndrewChristlieb]

What's the point if I don't get the satisfying crunch as my treads grind a heretic into the ground?

[BitsHammer]

What's the point if I don't get the satisfying crunch as my treads grind a heretic into the ground?

It leaves more bodies for your sword wielding zealots to kill instead?

[BitsHammer]

 

 

[...]If the G-Man continues his installation as New Emperor, [...]

 

There it is again. Rowboat is not acting as Emperor, he is Lord Commander and one of the High Lords of Terra. The man is "just doing his job". Like him (and the Primaris) or not, but i really get triggered by this (or similar) statements over and over again

 

 

Well by taking the Emperor's sword, he claimed power he had no right to.  Throughout history the sword has always been more than a weapon, it is something personal to a Warrior, a symbol of power and rulership and nobody would've dared taking it away from its rightful owner, in some cases even if he was dead. 

 

 

To be fair, any HQ who thought he was cool and could carry a sword could run around with the Burning Blade in the 7th edition Space Marine codex. All they did is move it from any Captain or Chapter Master mucking about with the sanctity of that blade and giving it to Gulliman.

 

Of course, thanks to the Warp, there is likely multiple versions of that dang thing floating around thanks to wibbly wobbly warp wackiness.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

I honestly like that new tank model. Not being able to transport regular marines is a big downside though. I smell another sales manoeuvre...

[BitsHammer]

I honestly like that new tank model. Not being able to transport regular marines is a big downside though. I smell another sales manoeuvre...

Honestly of all the things to potentially stick in it, I'd want to put Custodes in it more than Templars.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Still don't like it :p

 

I for one won't be buying Primaris nor new Primaris stuff... they will be relegated to my Brother who can do whatever he wants with it...

Doesn't fit my fluff of waging war on the other side of the Great Rift... and I just don't approve of Grav Tanks for Astartes...

[d3m01iti0n]

Tank is pretty dope.

[BitsHammer]

Still don't like it

 

I for one won't be buying Primaris nor new Primaris stuff... they will be relegated to my Brother who can do whatever he wants with it...

Doesn't fit my fluff of waging war on the other side of the Great Rift... and I just don't approve of Grav Tanks for Astartes...

First stop of the Indominus Crusade was the other side of the rift to go save what was left of the Sons of Baal.

 

All like ten of them.

 

So if anyone would likely get the new guys first, it'd be anyone in the Dark Imperium. :P

[Marshal_von_Speer]

I considered to add some primaris to my crusade, ignoring the fluff and just treat them as regular initiates with new and better equipement. Problem is, they visually stand out from the rest of my force (size) and I don't like that.

 

I then tried to figure out what other chapter than BT I could go for. After circling through several options I came to the conclusion, that none of the other chapters is anywhere close to be as awesome as the Templars are.

 

That means no Primaris for me. 

[Marshal Wolfhart]

The problem with the new grav tank imo is not the fluff. It's that turret. Where does the ammo go? And the energycells of that lascanon? And what the crap is wrong with all those warheads stored openly around the entire thing?

The hull itself is cool with me, the turret i can prolong if i feel like i need one and are in for a conversion (i always am ;) ). But those missile clusters all over the thing really strike me. Is it supposed to be some kind of ERA? dunno what to make of that...

[BitsHammer]

Feel like those "warheads" are more like short ranged flechette launchers.

 

As for the ammo thing, let,s not dig too deep there since we have plenty of vehicles in the Imperium with turret weapons that make no sense or can,t be reloaded due to spacing issues.

[d3m01iti0n]

I considered to add some primaris to my crusade, ignoring the fluff and just treat them as regular initiates with new and better equipement. Problem is, they visually stand out from the rest of my force (size) and I don't like that.

 

I then tried to figure out what other chapter than BT I could go for. After circling through several options I came to the conclusion, that none of the other chapters is anywhere close to be as awesome as the Templars are.

 

That means no Primaris for me.

Celestial Lions are badly in need of reinforcements and barring that, IF.

 

I have no problem with the models, it's the fluff. And plus they don't have an upgrade sprue or the ability to be Crusaders which if you stand by our original codex is our only Troop option. So if I buy them they will be IF or Alpha Legion infiltrators.

[Acebaur]

 

 

Looks like the Primaris Crusade'll actually be a thing...

 

Found here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/02/new-warhammer-40000-a-vision-of-the-far-future-june2gw-homepage-post-4/

 

 

That guys shoulder pad is waaaaayy oversized  

Edited June 3, 2017 by Acebaur

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

Still don't like it

 

I for one won't be buying Primaris nor new Primaris stuff... they will be relegated to my Brother who can do whatever he wants with it...

Doesn't fit my fluff of waging war on the other side of the Great Rift... and I just don't approve of Grav Tanks for Astartes...

First stop of the Indominus Crusade was the other side of the rift to go save what was left of the Sons of Baal.

 

All like ten of them.

 

So if anyone would likely get the new guys first, it'd be anyone in the Dark Imperium.

 

 

How'd they even get there, I thought the Rift made Warp travel impossible except through temporary windows that are random and few and far in between...

 

I'm still not getting them, the Indomitus Crusade can go the way of the Indomitus Rex for all I care, I'm sticking with the good old Eternal Crusade with my Imperator Rex...

I guess I'm just not fond of another scale change and while new stuff is fine, this one doesn't make sense for me...

Flyers, yeah that make sense, Artillery, makes sense too, Marines in Marines, not so much but I guess I can live with it... but these guys?

There are already Marines... with vast amounts of equipment, weaponry, geneseed and Power Armor for them... and now those will be all redundant or recycled for the new Primaris...

 

I guess I'm just really bitter against Guilliman and these guys... they take the fun out of the Grim-Dark 40k, eventually they'll trash over my entire collection since it's going to be Primaris here and there while I get no more parts for my scale of Marines... and in the end 40k which it once was, a Grimdark Fantasy set in the far future of humanity, will just become another Halo, or Starcraft... I mean we're seeing it's beginnings now... I doubt GW will give it up especially if it turns into a cash cow...

 

And above all, I'm surprised you're a flag-bearer of this Fulkes... I'd expected you'd be the one crying for Heresy because these guys are stealing your thunder instead of getting new SoB miniatures... It would actually be a great tactical move to instead of releasing new Marines in the starter set, they'd release Sisters of Battle vs Nurgle Death Guard instead... would make a great opening to female members of the W40k community...

 

Also, whoever did this art, might need to get their perceptions checked again, the other arm and it's shoulder pads isn't proportion even through perceptive angling with the sword arm on the left... and also, aren't Primaris supposed to have tiny Shoulder Pads, since they are pretty much borrowing standard Pads from Astartes? So, what's up with the leg armour on his shoulder pad?

[Castellan Doren]

I like the concept of the new art, but those proportions...

 

Honey do these shoulderpads make me look fat?

[BitsHammer]

How'd they even get there, I thought the Rift made Warp travel impossible except through temporary windows that are random and few and far in between...

There are two corridors through the rift, one near the Cadian system, the other near the Damocles Gulf.

 

I'm still not getting them, the Indomitus Crusade can go the way of the Indomitus Rex for all I care, I'm sticking with the good old Eternal Crusade with my Imperator Rex...

I guess I'm just not fond of another scale change and while new stuff is fine, this one doesn't make sense for me...

Flyers, yeah that make sense, Artillery, makes sense too, Marines in Marines, not so much but I guess I can live with it... but these guys?

There are already Marines... with vast amounts of equipment, weaponry, geneseed and Power Armor for them... and now those will be all redundant or recycled for the new Primaris...

Considering the stuff in both past and present 40k, taller Marines with extra implants isn't that much if a stretch. I mean this game is full of silly stuff like the Sternguard I built today who has an Aquila on his butt for no explainable reason. That's something that GW actually made and sells.

 

I can respect that people might be less than enthused over Primaris marines being a thing, just like many where less than enthused when Tau started getting giant robots. But at the end of the day they,re going to see the table one way or the other. I just chose to not fight to the death over an inevitable change.

 

That said, until I start seeing some close combat oriented Primaris models (other than the Gravis Captain), the only place I'm adding them is to my Imperial Fists. My Templar army is a work of passion and will take a lot of time to properly get together while my Fists are the tabletop standard paint job army that I've thrown together to get games in while I slowly assemble Templars.

 

I guess I'm just really bitter against Guilliman and these guys... they take the fun out of the Grim-Dark 40k, eventually they'll trash over my entire collection since it's going to be Primaris here and there while I get no more parts for my scale of Marines... and in the end 40k which it once was, a Grimdark Fantasy set in the far future of humanity, will just become another Halo, or Starcraft... I mean we're seeing it's beginnings now... I doubt GW will give it up especially if it turns into a cash cow...

i don,t see them taking the fun out of it, as much as kicking off an arms race that will only work against the Imperium, plus I want to see Chaos start running their own spiky versions of Primaris tech. Not every traitor is a Legionairre and frankly even the Legion guys deserve to steal some decent tech now and then, cram a daemon into it and then sick it on the Imperium.

 

And above all, I'm surprised you're a flag-bearer of this Fulkes... I'd expected you'd be the one crying for Heresy because these guys are stealing your thunder instead of getting new SoB miniatures... It would actually be a great tactical move to instead of releasing new Marines in the starter set, they'd release Sisters of Battle vs Nurgle Death Guard instead... would make a great opening to female members of the W40k community...

You expect too much of my expectations for GW. :P

 

To be quite frank, the reason I started working on a Templar Crusade was because I don,t expect Sisters to be getting anything for a long while, and just don't want to keep playing a rehash of the same list for who knows how many more years.

 

Don,t get me wrong, I love Templars. They are my absolute favorite loyalist chapter (followed by Fists) but I am not at my core a Marine player. And when I am, I tend to want to somehow make hordes of them and punch people in the soul with said hordes.

 

Sisters will see plastics when they see plastics and not a moment before.

 

That said, I do tend to get my more fanatical side on when Sister's rules get buffed and turned into Marine rules at no extra cost. That tends to get my Eviscerator looking for targets.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Fulkes

[Marshal_von_Speer]

I like the concept of the new art, but those proportions...

 

Honey do these shoulderpads make me look fat?

 

 

The new art-team seems to have some issues with perspective and proportions. I mean look at this guy's sword, it's unnaturally bent forward (just after the hilt).That either means metal primaris models or rushed artwork:

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by Marshal_von_Speer

[Honda]

rushed artwork:

 

 

I would consider this the most likely cause. There's no doubt that GW artists are talented. What you don't know and may never know, is how much artwork had to be created to support 8th and what the timelines were.

 

Also, don't ever underestimate the Marketing departments penchant for walking into another team and saying: "Hey, we need <______> by Friday for the big launch!"

 

Other team: "That's impossible! Are you out of your mind?"

 

Marketing: "Well, we can't launch <________> without this. I guess you can tell the CEO why the highly anticipated product launch has to be delayed."

 

So the other team figures out how to get it done, because the situation is "No win".

 

This happens in other businesses all the time. Don't expect GW to be any different.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

 

rushed artwork:

 

 

I would consider this the most likely cause. There's no doubt that GW artists are talented. What you don't know and may never know, is how much artwork had to be created to support 8th and what the timelines were.

 

Also, don't ever underestimate the Marketing departments penchant for walking into another team and saying: "Hey, we need <______> by Friday for the big launch!"

 

Other team: "That's impossible! Are you out of your mind?"

 

Marketing: "Well, we can't launch <________> without this. I guess you can tell the CEO why the highly anticipated product launch has to be delayed."

 

So the other team figures out how to get it done, because the situation is "No win".

 

This happens in other businesses all the time. Don't expect GW to be any different.

 

 

Knowing this too good from my own working life, you might be right.

 

Then again, I find it odd, that the entire picture seems well done and in proportion but then has that rather eye-catching flaw. I think it is a pity because all in all I really like the new artworks.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

 

rushed artwork:

 

 

I would consider this the most likely cause. There's no doubt that GW artists are talented. What you don't know and may never know, is how much artwork had to be created to support 8th and what the timelines were.

 

Also, don't ever underestimate the Marketing departments penchant for walking into another team and saying: "Hey, we need <______> by Friday for the big launch!"

 

Other team: "That's impossible! Are you out of your mind?"

 

Marketing: "Well, we can't launch <________> without this. I guess you can tell the CEO why the highly anticipated product launch has to be delayed."

 

So the other team figures out how to get it done, because the situation is "No win".

 

This happens in other businesses all the time. Don't expect GW to be any different.

 

It's Igor Sid. An AMAZING artist. He does a lot of work for GW.

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/z183D

[Kontakt]

   Alright. I will stand for it. For the most part, I like the new marines. Their new vehicles and weapons are beautiful. Though their points cost is prohibitive compared to standard initiates, and they do make standard marines look proportionally quite silly, but they seem fine to me. The imperium needs more marines (of any chapter, we aren't the only competent marines out there) and building up established chapters is the easiest way to make a difference organizationally. There is already a command structure, logistics and support setup, and battle fleet for established chapters.

   Okay, so why would templars use them? Because the templars' numbers are in the thousands, (written in the new index page for our chapter fluff) a few hundred more marines would be very easy to add without changing much. While they ARE unproven, the nature of the "dark imperium" demands that the templars do all we can to "hold things together." The fires of war would quickly separate the worthy from the unworthy.

   The imperium finally has a forward looking individual back in charge, who approves of all the illegal (innovation is illegal in the mechanicus) experimental tech that some in the mechanicus (Cawl) would love to put into production. 

   What I do not like is the concept that existing marines are somehow "upgradeable" to the primaris standard. As if Adeptus Astartes are not adequate for the task at hand. These new marines smell faintly of thunder warrior to me. Their fire support concept (like squads with all plasma) is a role I usually fill with cheap allied scions, not expensive 2 wound plasma marines. From a non fluff perspective, I think primaris marines belong to either an expanded custodes army, or their own separate chapters, separate from the existing chapters. Either way, I WILL be using them on a very limited basis, mostly due to the high points cost compared to standard astartes.

[d3m01iti0n]

All plasma? Chaos Chosen. Obviously Alpha Legion.