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Marshal Vulpes and the Justification Crusade


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Hey guys.

I've been in the hobby for a long old while now (mostly Blood Angels and some filthy Xenos) and when Shadow War was released I used it as an excuse to pick up a small collection of Adapa Sororitas.

 

Now with the release of 8th edition incoming and the shiny new Primaris marines (I know some people really don't like them but I'm a total Geedubs magpie) I'm planning to split a box and keep all the Primaris stuff to make a small allied detachment of Templars to ride alongside my Sisters.

 

I'm spending my afternoon reading up on some fluff (I've never played against BT and all I know if that they take murdering xenos / Witches / Mutants very seriously. 

 

My question to you learned BT vets is: Is there anything that comes with the new Primaris set that BT would strictly not use? As far as I can see there's no psykers or anything in the set, and as far as I know BT use jump packs and plasma guns, so it all looks OK to my untrained eye.

 

As I probably wont be buying anything else for them (at least not until more Primaris stuff is announched) it will just be a very small allied detachment to run alongside my equally small Sisters army. Does that sounds feasible?

 

In the mean time I'll be boning up on BT paint schemes, fluff and browsing through the B T sub-forum for inspiration. 

 

 

Edited by Bukimimaru
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The strict structure and the focus on ranged weapons we've seen so far is probably the only things that really fly in the face of BT really, but I haven't seen anything yet in the set that screams no BT unless your dead set against the fluff of them or the appearance.
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I can see the BT having an issue taking any gifts from Gulliman after their little to-do during the post heresy clean up, but after 10,000 years maybe reinforcements for the great crusade would be appreciated from anyone.

 

It does seem a shame that there are no dedicated close combat units in the Primaris set, but lots and lots of bolters (and "Hand Held Heavy Bolters" on the jump pack guys) seem to be pretty in line with BT lore.

 

I might have to re-purpose an old Land-raider for the tacticle dudes to ride around in, but aside from that I'll be sticking to just primaris marines and Sisters, aiming to have about 1000 points of each to make up a 2,000 army (or whatever the equivalent of that would be in 8th edition).

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First off, read Helsreach and Blood and Fire if you haven't already. You'll get BT teaming up with SoB in Helsreach, and it's an all around fantastic book.

 

Primaris doesn't really seem to have a place within BT but the desire for new shinys will create justification for some.

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Welcome to the subforum of the zealous and the righteous!

 

To add to the above, you could join the Eternal Crusade and paint up some Initiates before the new Edition.

 

Regarding Primaris, I don't feel like trying to be objective. I don't like the idea and am not a huge fan of the models, so won't be adding any for my force anytime soon. What seems particularly anticlimactic (so far) is their lack of dedicated close combat squads of any kind. If you want to go really Medieval Templar, you just have to show some love for melee units. Otherwise, apart from the paint scheme, the BT are probably not for you and bluer (cough, Tau, cough UM) colours go together better with shooting.*

* After typing this, I realised that it is rather beside the point. Still, I'll leave it here as a gentle reminder and a potential sound counterargument to adding Primaris to your force who, at the moment, appear to be an oversized fire support unit.

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Take into account that moving towards 8th Ed means melee is getting a huge buff. If at the very least we keep something similar to our current Chapter Tactics it will be very big for us and behoove you to run Templars as the Emperor intended, in huge CC blobs. If we get extremely lucky and get movement buffs and/or further bonuses to our LRC we will be monstrous.

 

You will find however that most BT players like myself are purists and run them according to the ruleset found in their original Codex. That means Crusader Squads. No Tacs, no Devs. Just bum rushing and chopping. Having not only the stubborn Dorn blood but also the fluff of Sigi downright renouncing the Codex Astartes fuels the Zeal that keeps us old skool. Doesn't mean you can't shoot though. I myself have a 20 man Las/Plas Bolter Crusader squad for objectives. Somebody's gotta secure dem points yknow? I like to think these guys roll dice before deployment so decide who gets to chop on the next outing.

 

"By the Emperors Balls, I rolled a 1 again! I will align my humors and oil my Bolter. Next time Brothers, next time!"

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There is absolutely nothing un-Templar about Primaris marines aside from some interpretive headcannon masquerading as actual fluff. Beat stick Primaris marines are coming and, if you really have some issue with them being different they are still sons of Dorn given with the Emperor's blessing.

 

Good luck with your joint crusade! The galaxy needs it!

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Look, a lot of us "old school" BT players have very set mindsets, and to some of us, the Primarus Marine is the "WT:censored: , :censored:  NO!" event of the new edition.

 

That said, I will point out that it is YOUR ARMY to play as YOU SEE FIT. I, personally, may include the PM's in the future if they come out with CC oriented model options.

 

I will say, though, that there is a place for fire support, as I do think that someone should keep the enemies heads down as the CC SQD's move in for the kill. So, I would say go for it, paint it black, let us know your opinions and successes/failures with these new models in play.

 

And, above all,

 

WELCOME TO THE ETERNAL CRUSADE!

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As you can see, we're a pretty diverse bunch - that's what comes of crusading to all corners of the Galaxy for 10,000 years; you tend to branch out from the norm a little.

 

A pragmatic Templar captain will welcome reinforcement wherever they come from, and from the hand of a primarch no less? Much better than any alternative ;)

 

A stubborn old goat of a Templar captain will be mighty suspicious of these untested troops, and may be outright hostile.

 

While true that the lack of melee unit types is a bit off for Templars, it doesn't prevent you building some shooty units. To be totally true to their style, I would look to add a crusader squad or champion or something at some point, otherwise one could argue the primaris actually suit our older brothers from the Imperial Fists a bit more?

 

Don't forget that us Templars love the Holy Bolters, so much so we strapped them all to the side of a landraider too ;)

 

If there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that the Primaris look their best in Black :lol:

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I've said in numerous other threads that the moment the Primarines get a BT sprue I will gladly add them. That will probably take a while, if ever, so my head canon tells me that the process has proved successful and my existing Templars merely undergo the change. Vat grown clones are too Star Wars for me; this is the Grim darkness of the future and we recruit children in order to geneseed them.
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 but after 10,000 years maybe reinforcements for the great crusade would be appreciated from anyone.

 

"To forgive is to forget... Forget nothing"

 

Personally I think BT would be suspicious of Guilliman tampering with the Emperor's work and would be reluctant to accept the technology of "upgrading" marines into our chapter. We certainly would not likely accept brand new test tube marines straight from terra into our ranks as that's not our style. 

 

But to echo Brother Ryan, it is your army and don't be discouraged if you like the fluff/models. 

 

Welcome to the Eternal Crusade brother!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks guys.

Sounds likes there's a diverse range of opinions on the the marines and their place in a Templars army.

You guys sure are passionate about your chapter and I absolutely love that. :)

 

I've ordered a bunch of BT heads and Shoulder Pads as well as an upgrade kit (for the BT shaped purity seals and incense burners) so I'll be kitbashing a bunch of the primaris stuff when I do get my hands on them.

 

A question regarding Heraldry, is there a traditional way of colouring Sergeants etc? 

I usually play BA and we have blue helmets for our devs, yellow for assault etc, do the Templars usually distinguish their roles with different colours helmets / shoulderpads / knees etc?

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The term 'head canon' pops up quite often now, so I'll use it here. In my head canon, there are not Sergeants. We have Neophytes (in scout armour), Initiates (equivalents of regular Marines, but better :P) and the Sword Brethren (veterans and what you might call sergeants, as there's an option to add one to a Crusader Squad). The ranks differ have different shoulder pad liveries, but nothing more. Maybe with the exception of Terminators, "traditionally" depicted with white helmets.

 

Regarding heraldry, this is a link to what we had in Codex: Black Templars about it. Apart from the principles regarding shoulder pads, the Black Templars like to customise their armour to show their individuality and battle achievements. This leaves as door open for any colour scheme you like.

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I also sort of think there aren't really sgts in the usual sense. More of veteran initiate. But I so know that we have to differentiate them on the table, so I painted my "sgts" with one white knee pad
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Thanks guys.

Sounds likes there's a diverse range of opinions on the the marines and their place in a Templars army.

You guys sure are passionate about your chapter and I absolutely love that. :smile.:

 

I've ordered a bunch of BT heads and Shoulder Pads as well as an upgrade kit (for the BT shaped purity seals and incense burners) so I'll be kitbashing a bunch of the primaris stuff when I do get my hands on them.

 

A question regarding Heraldry, is there a traditional way of colouring Sergeants etc? 

I usually play BA and we have blue helmets for our devs, yellow for assault etc, do the Templars usually distinguish their roles with different colours helmets / shoulderpads / knees etc?

 

Regarding Sgts.it all matters on how you'd distinguish them, but according to older fluff, we did have them... just not in the context of how Sergeants are with other Chapters... in the 4th ed. Codex, there is a Sergeant entry in the Command Squad and there was also a mention of it somewhere within the Codex... in Helsreach by AD-B which is one of the famous Templar reads, Bastillan is the Sergeant of the Command Squad and is in charge when Grimaldus or Bayard wasn't around, and he was apparently differentiated by some marking on his helm... as to what his helm looked like, I have clue... in the end it's all up to you how to distinguish them between your standard Initiate...

 

Me personally, I tend to go full Sword Brethren markings on Crusader Squads, and mark them as normal Initiates, albeit some special emblem or embellishment for them if they are Assault Squads or Devastator Squads...

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Well as I'm only going to be using Primaris armoured units, I think I'll replace all the left hand shoulderpads with Templar specific ones. 

Sergeants will get BT specific heads and will all be painted White as opposed to black helmets on normal troops.

I think I'll go with a white patch on the right knee, and then if I can get some transfers I'll transfer the right hand shoulderpad as well. 

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Black templars don't have sergeant, we have sword brethren. At least in crusader squads. Sword brethren used to be veterans, with their own squad but now they're attached to crusaders as sergeants. Their official markings are a red cross on a black field with red trim for the shoulder pads. I personally don't like red on black so I give them the traditional black and white shoulder pads but their robes are painted red. Edited by ChaplainMatthias
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Black templars don't have sergeant, we have sword brethren. At least in crusader squads. Sword brethren used to be veterans, with their own squad but now they're attached to crusaders as sergeants. Their official markings are a red cross on a black field with red trim for the shoulder pads. I personally don't like red on black so I give them the traditional black and white shoulder pads but their robes are painted red.

Sword Brethren haven't returned in name, but Company Vets add a new option for us to field them as in addition to Vanguard and Sternguard.

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I guess I'm a bit stuck in my ways. I find myself refusing to call them "Sword Brethren" when they're in the crusader squad. In fact I won't even give them the red shoulder pads, to me its simply the most senior initiate leading the squad. He's easy enough to distinguish anyway. He's the one with the Powersword. As you suggested Fulkes any veteran squads or Terminators I field... that's my Sword Brethren.

Edited by Reeeen0690
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I've actually started just painting all my guys with the same color pads just because I like the way they look better. The good thing with Templars of course being that you can pretty much do whatever you want. We tend to be pretty lax on things like unit designations and such.
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Sword Bros in a Crusader squad are the perfect excuse to use their actual models. I've always ran the Lightning Claw guy in one squad and the bald guy with Power Sword in the other.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Good news, The BT shoulderpads can fit on the new Primaris Marines with minimal effort:

19225938 10154717946323004 1870216935106756305 N

 
And I've finished my Gravis Captain (sorry about the duff picture quality).

19225282 10154717938138004 2036329656574912296 N

19399607 10154717938183004 3685596148556857539 N

 
I've got my first game with them this Friday against Tricksy Space Elves.
 
75 Power Level, Spearhead Detachement.
HQ: Captain in Gravis Armour
HQ: Primaris Lieutenant w/ Powersword
Elite: Primaris Ancient
Troop: Intercessor Squad
Troop: Intercessor Squad
Heavy: Hellblaster Squad
Heavy: Hellblaster Squad
Fast: Landspeeder, Heavy Flamer & Multi-melta
Fast: Landspeeder, Heavy Flamer & Multi-melta
Flyer: Stormraven, Assault Cannons, Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters & Missiles.
 
I'm not used to playing such a crazy low model count. >_<

 

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I look forward to hearing how your game goes.

 

Going back to heraldry for a moment, Black Templars wear the cross on BOTH shoulder pads. I generally keep my Sword Brethren with the black and white pads, but personally, I'm going to start giving them white helmets to signify that they have served in the Terminator Sword Brethren and been given the opportunity to take command of a squad of Initiates/Neophytes to impart their tactical knowledge that much further in the lower ranks. The Fast Attack usually are designated with the black cross, white background, and red trim. Chaplains have a white cross, black background and whatever color trim you'd like.

 

I do, however, like the white kneepad idea. It's simple enough to do and gives you a small distinction marking without throwing off the overall color scheme. I hope this helps you in some way.

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Thanks Brother Ryan.

I'm still working on the fluff, but my thinking so far is that the High Marshal initially rejected Gulliman's offer of Primaris armour due to the potential heresy of screwing with the God-Emperors creation.

After discussing it with Celestine, Helbrecht agreed to take the reinforcements on the condition that they prove themselves a worthy addition to the crusade.

Under the careful watch of a Sororitas convent, the Primaris marines are on a mission to prove their worth and join the ranks as official members of the Black Templar.

Until they have proven their worth, they are using their own Heraldy, (White Helmets on Sergeants and white shoulders with Black sigils.)
 

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