Loadouts for Deathwatch

[Moostick]

With the large changes to the holy trinity of the beloved SM special weapons (Plasma, Melta, and Grav), what are your thoughts on which best serves the purposes of the Deathwatch? We can assume we'll be taking FC and IHB in our armies, so which one supplements them best? (included are my assumptions for the two)

 

Confirmed Profiles

 

Plasma (13 pts)

24", Rapid Fire 1, S7/8, AP3, D - 1/2 

May blow up on 1s

 

Melta (17 pts)

12", Assault 1, S8, AP4, D - D6

Roll 2 D6, use highest roll

 

Grav (15 pts)

18", Rapid Fire 1, S5, AP3, D - 1/D3

D3 on 3+ saves

 

Confirmed Profiles

 

IHB (25)

36", Assault  Heavy 3, S5, AP1, D - 1

8", Assault D6, S5, AP1, D - 1 (Auto hit)

Can fire both at -1 To Hit

 

Frag Cannon (30)

8", Assault 2D6, S6, AP1, D - 1 (auto hit)

24"/12", Assault 2, S7/9, AP2/3, D - 2

 

Stalker pattern Boltgun (4)

30", S4, AP0, SIA ammo

 

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These are all just speculation and for discussion; actual play will be required before we cast final judgment.

 

I really like the new Plasma profiles. They are now cheap, strong, and you can choose to not have it blow up in your face. With high S and AP, with the potential to do D4 within 12" makes it the most well rounded out the three. Out of the three, it definitely had the largest buff. 

 

Meltas are now no longer vehicle hunters, but high value target hunters. The only danger is that with the new IC rules, they can be countered if the enemy has tactical sense. Still useful for suicide missions against vehicles, but less reliable with an increase in points. Middle of the pack.

 

Grav. At Rapid Fire 1, S5, AP3, and no change in points, it clearly got the largest (deserving) nerf. My initial thought is that it's simply not worth it. It can be devastating with 2D3 wounds, but I just have a gut feeling that it's "not worth the 15 pts". Don't really know how to explain it. I feel the Plasma does everything this does and more reliably. We can consistently get D2 at a higher S and range, and at a cheaper cost. At the same time, I imagine our bolters will get a minimal AP2. +12 points for +1S, +1AP, and possible +D2? Hard to swallow.

 

Stalkers. They're bolters with longer range and Heavy 2. Really nothing to say about that. Is it worth the 4 points? Maybe.

 

IHB: At 25 points? Garbage. Only reason to ever take this is for its looks because otherwise this is the single worst option in our entire army. HTH is a close second. Why do all our most awesome looking weapons simply suck?

 

FC: Is a big investment, but at least it's somewhat worth its points unlike the IHB. High risk, high reward weapon. If they reduced it to 25 points (and lower IHB to 20), or increase D to 3 or D6 on solid shells <12", this would be a maximum auto-take. It's selling point is the 2D6 8" profile right now, and honestly, I'd rather have the Blood Angel option of just this profile for 19 points over this 30 points tax. Outshined by combi-plasma on costs/efficiency otherwise.

 

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I have to give this to Plasma. It's cheap, will be wounding majority of models on a 2/3+, and has good AP. I consider it the more versatile of the trinity. Rolls of 1 are still an issue on supercharge, but if we get rerolls on them, then the synergy is even stronger.

 

I imagine combi-weapons will be much more restrictive on who can take them in the 8th. +2 pts are an absolute steal to be able to fire both at just -1 To Hit.

 

Edit: Expanding on all loadouts for discussion

Edited June 11, 2017 by Moostick

[Qui-Gon]

Make sure you include the Plasma pistol and Grav Pistols now. They are ridiculously cheap and useful.

[shanewatts]

On the topic of special weapons, what is your thoughts about the potential in 8th for the Stalker Boltgun?

[shandwen]

With combi-weapons and SIA I doubt I will run any special weapons at all.

Not that there is much of a tactical difference in use between combis and specials...

[Moostick]

GW definitely will do something like only characters can take combi-weapons. At the very least, I doubt our regular Veterans can take them anymore.

 

As for stalkers...we have zero information on them, so it's hard to speculate. But judging from the fact people are saying we still get SIA and the stat of regular snipers, then I doubt they change much except losing the ignore cover ammo since cover is simply a save modifier now; AP2 would do the same thing. Bad thing is that it's likely S4 now and no longer simply Wounding on 4+. Good thing is that that is somewhat fixed if we do keep SIA, and it still gets Mortal Wounds on rolls of 6 (which is better than Rend).

 

In addition, it's one of the few weapons able to snipe characters, so if these assumptions are right, I say their position has improved overall.

[Moostick]

Well, ignore my previous post. Stalkers are pretty terrible for 4 pts! Shotguns I am heavily torn on, but 5 pts seems too steep as bolter with SIA is much more versatile for no cost.

 

Combi-Plasma (as mentioned by shandwen, no real reason to take regular ones) is officially king for me. I would even say it outclasses the Frag Cannon at everything except close quarters due to it being half the price. Only having D2 hurts the FC severely. at 12", my combi-plasma can fire two S8, AP3, D2, two S4, AP2, D1 shots as opposed to FC's two S9, AP3, D2 shots. 

 

FC wins at 8" and under

Combi-Plasma wins >8"

 

As noted in the other thread, I can see my go-to being Drop Pod a 10 man unit of combi-plasmas with 5 SS, or maybe 2 5-man squads in a single DP. LET IT RAAAAAAAAAAIN!

Edited May 31, 2017 by Moostick

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I'd say a 9 man squad with a Captain would be better in a drop pod.

[Vel'Cona]

Pretty early to say, TBH.  We don't really know what the meta is going to look like right now, but with the strong showing of Nids/Orks horde control could be the hot ticket in 8th.  With that in mind, low Strength weps with mass fire will be important, especially those that autohit!  :)

[Moostick]

Continuing on with discussion of weapons, given the revelation on melee costs and the reroll rules that HQs give,I wanted to open up discussion on melee weapons as they are now very much a viable option for us.

 

Power Axe: S+1, AP2

Pros:

- The all-rounder. It's rarely the best, nor worst, but likely the weapon we'd get the most mileage out of. Even GW recognizes this, which is why it costs 1 pt extra over its counterparts

- Will wound most hordes on a 3+ and mostly deny saves

- Most super heavies will have invul. saves of 3 or 4+, making this more ideal than the sword

- Not many models have T10 or higher, in which case Maul would be better

 

Cons:

- "Jack of all trades"

- More expensive

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Power Sword: S, AP3

Pros:

- Will deny saves from most things and force high rolls on anything without a ++

- Looks cool

- King of anything with T3, and most of T4

- Less expensive

 

Cons:

- AP3 less effective against anything with invul save of 4++ or better

- Less effective on hordes

- No S modifier

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Power Maul/Lance: S+2, AP1

Pros:

- Will wound most models on a 2 or 3+

- Anything with a 6+, this is king

- Less expensive

- Best against things with T10 and 11

 

Cons:

- Low AP; enemy models will very likely have a saving throw

- Few models have T10 and 11

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Lightning Claw: S, AP2, Re-roll To Wounds

Pros:

- Decent AP

- Re rolling To Wounds

- Great synergy with HQ re-roll To Hits

- Very good options for models with high number of A

- Great against both models with good invul. saves and hordes

 

Cons:

- Twice the cost of standard PW

- Not ideal for low A models

- No S modifier

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Power Fist/TH/HTH: Str x 2, AP3, D3/3/D6

Pros:

- High S, high AP

- Good synergy with HQ re-rolls

- Great against high T and save models

- Potential to do a lot of wounds; HQ killer

 

Cons:

- High cost

- Random number of D (except TH)

- -1 To Hit

- Inefficient against hordes

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Relic Blade: S+2, AP3, D3

It's a Relic Blade. That alone is reason to take this.

 

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I'll take back my initial disdain for Lightning Claws. Understanding the synergy they now have with HQs increases their worth by a lot. With a Chaplain or a WM, they will be rerolling every failed To Hit and To Wound throw.

 

Opinion on LC: Reliable and well rounded. Give this to a model with 4 or 5 attacks, and it's one of the most reliable ways to wound a model every time for a relatively low cost.

 

PF/TH/HTH are, of course, even better than LC in synergy with the HQs as it can reroll To Hits and with a S8, it'll be wounding most things on a 2 or 3+ anyways. The downside to PF and HTH is that their D is random, and their cost is so much higher.

 

Opinion on Heavies: Has a specific role. Take these when you want a heavy hitting weapon, but I feel these will see less use as it's less versatile for its cost. We can almost literally take a second model with a regular PW for its cost. Put them on a HQ or vehicle hunter.

 

Between the 3 cheap choices, Power Axe is the most versatile; that much is certain. Sword and Maul are a toss up; each specializes in something different. Between the two, my opinion is that in most cases Sword for anything T4 and lower, Maul for anything T5 to T11.

 

Opinion on PW: The three all have their uses and will make their points back one way or another. Take when you don't have points for anything else.

 

Overall, I would say we won't see extensive use of melee weapons outside of the typical power weapons. Units with a lot of heavy hitters will be a huge point sink, be less effective on 1W models, and will have a little too much random D wounding.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Moostick

[shanewatts]

So far I am using power axes and thunder hammers. Still looking into Heavy thunder hammers.

 

Relic blades just cost too many points to be effective really.

 

Also debating trying out a Xenophase blade on a captain, as a HQ hunter.

Edited June 3, 2017 by shanewatts

[Moostick]

So far I am using power axes and thunder hammers. Still looking into Heavy thunder hammers.

 

Relic blades just cost too many points to be effective really.

 

Also debating trying out a Xenophase blade on a captain, as a HQ hunter.

 

But...it's a Relic Blade even though Thunder Hammer is way better for 1 pt less

I completely forgot about Xenophase! Might be nice to throw on a few Sergeants, but it has such a niche use. If we had a spare 3 pts, it might be nice to replace a power sword with it.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Moostick

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

Hang on. I thought the Infernus Heavy Bolter's HB profile is considered a Heavy weapon. Not an assault. :/

[Vel'Cona]

Yes it is, now.  So if you were to move and fire both the HB and the HF on the Infernus Heavy Bolter, it'd be 6s to hit with the HB.

[SnakeChisler]

Xenophase is weird re- roll invulnerable doesn't come into play with 2+ armour as the model gets his 5+ save instead of taking the invun to get some milage out of it your opponent needs a 4++

 

On the other hand power swords are wounding T7 vehicles on 5's

 

On another note Melta bombs are no longer unwieldy.

[Slogael]

 

 

On another note Melta bombs are no longer unwieldy. 

Is it still allowed to use grenades in close combat ? (I can't see anything on grenades allowed to be used within 1'' of an opponent, like pistols) 

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

Xenophase is weird re- roll invulnerable doesn't come into play with 2+ armour as the model gets his 5+ save instead of taking the invun to get some milage out of it your opponent needs a 4++

 

On the other hand power swords are wounding T7 vehicles on 5's

 

On another note Melta bombs are no longer unwieldy.

 

 

Yeah, the Xenophase isn't anymore useful than a power sword. If anything it's really IS just a power sword with the ability to force a reroll. The real problem is what would be needed to force the target into using his invuln save for the ability to come into play. But  still, at the very least it comes cheap. 

[Lysere]

Yes it is, now. So if you were to move and fire both the HB and the HF on the Infernus Heavy Bolter, it'd be 6s to hit with the HB.

5s to hit actually, and you couldn't fire it if you advance like with the flamer. Kind of a shame as it really pushed the frag cannon into the best spot. I guess it's a good thing I only made a couple IHB so far.

[Irbis]

 

Xenophase is weird re- roll invulnerable doesn't come into play with 2+ armour as the model gets his 5+ save instead of taking the invun to get some milage out of it your opponent needs a 4++

 

On the other hand power swords are wounding T7 vehicles on 5's

 

On another note Melta bombs are no longer unwieldy.

 

Yeah, the Xenophase isn't anymore useful than a power sword. If anything it's really IS just a power sword with the ability to force a reroll. The real problem is what would be needed to force the target into using his invuln save for the ability to come into play. But  still, at the very least it comes cheap.

 

I kind of disagree. Any model with 3+/4++ (so captains, chaplains, and also anything with rosarius, etc) is vulnerable, demons don't get to laugh at it, it's good vs genestealers/wyches/cults/sisters/crusaders - really, it's 'weak' only against the models with no ++ save, but then -3 AP comes into play. I'd say it's pretty much cheapest and most versatile of all DW weapons. I'd give them to almost all my sarges, even if I will count them as regular power swords in some games.

[Moostick]

Xenophase is only useful against very specific enemies. At +3 points over the power sword, I consider it one of those "take if you have a power sword and points to spare" type of weapons. There could be a situation where it turns the combat around, but those will be relatively few and far in between.

 

It's better than the situation between TH and HTH at least. +10 points for a potential -2 to +3 D, a garbage ability, and losing a ranged weapon? Really terrible idea; it's still awesome, but no longer worth 30 points like in the 7th. At least give us higher S, AP, or a better ability.

[Castellan Wulfrik]

Anyone got any idea's regarding the best loadout for a Corvus in 8th now they're looking more useful? Twin Lascannons look lethal but it starts becoming a bit pricey for a transport so I was leaning towards just sticking with the Assault Cannons and Stormstrike Missiles. The Auspex seems an obvious choice over the Halo-launcher.  I'm not very familiar with the rules for 8th and haven't played a game yet so would appreciate some advice. 

[Moostick]

I think that would depend on what you want the Corvus to do, and what you have on the rest of your army.

 

Need something to kill infantry/hordes? Twin Assault Cannon, two BS launchers

Need something to pop high T, high W? Twin Lascannon, two SML

 

Hurricane bolter is worth the 4 pts regardless. Personally, I run AC/BSL simply because I need volume of fire the most.

[Vel'Cona]

Hurricane bolter is worth the 4 pts regardless. Personally, I run AC/BSL simply because I need volume of fire the most.

 

Yup, have to agree with both points.  I'd also put in a vote for the Auspex Array as a better choice now, which is somewhat annoying given the Halo-Launcher was the clear winner in 7th . . .

[shandwen]

I have to agree with Vel'Cona there. Auspex is best, and I'm stuck with an IfHL modeled on my Blackstar.

Oh well, I guess I need a new one. Hahaha.

But I wouldn't dismiss the twin laz setup, as laz cannons are quite nice (even if we are a bit short on volume of fire).

[SnakeChisler]

Halo V Auspex is a tough choice

 

The reason why is a lot of Tau firing has the Fly Keyword including drones

 

Whatever GW price pathfinders at I still think marker support will come from drones especially as they have the ability to take wounds for other high value units.

Even with the Marker Light Nerf Tau shooting is still very powerful adding a commander & marker support will vaporise a Corvus in 1 round

 

Survivability V increased BS

 

On the other had you need the + 1 against hordes and an assault cannon rather than las

[CrimsonReign]

so from reading the section on SIA, I don't think it applies to combi- weapons?

 

when this unit fires a bolt pistol, boltgun, twin boltgun, stalker pattern boltgun or guardian spear, you can choose to fire special issue ammunition

 

no mention of combi :/