==][==Grey Knights 8e Full Rules==][==

[Bartali]

What are people's initial thoughts on the Dreadknight/Dreadnought balance of desirability come 8th?

 

Seems (to me) that Dreadknights are no longer necessarily no-brainer auto-takes over Dreadnoughts.

 

Indeed. NDKs lost their manoeuvrability which made them key previously, and the guns are now a bit sucky. 

It's something you'll now DS in with the Teleporter, flame with the Incinerator and hope to get a charge off.

 

With no Drop Pod you're not going to use Dreads as aggressively (and it looks as though they can't take GoI after all). The guns they can take - Twin Las and Quad Auto - are now some of the best guns GK can take*

You'll be mostly putting these in your back field stationary in cover to avoid the -1 to hit (although <Dreadnought> might remove that penalty ?)

 

So, completely different beasts and I'll want to take both I'd imagine.

 

*Razorbacks with Twin Las / Twin Asscan, Stormravens and LRs also good but somewhat more expensive to put on the field. Shame GK guns are all a bit weak in comparison

Edited May 31, 2017 by Bartali

[LuisMars]

As stated in the Space Marines datasheets, a Librarian can replace his storm bolter with a storm shield.

 

 

And as stated in our datasheets, he has a replaceable Nemesis warding stave and granades but say nothing about ignoring the storm bolter replacement.

 

Are Librarians with storm shields a thing now? Edited May 31, 2017 by LuisMars

[Holier Than Thou]

If that's true, keep the Stave and he's got a 2++ in combat.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm gonna wait for the main rules and Imperium compendium to come out and do some playtesting. Will have an 8th edition tactica ready to go soon. 

 

On face value, I'd say we are fine overall. 

 

- Characters are a mess, but I think this will be a consistent issue across 8th edition

- Psychic phase has been gutted, expected overreaction to the absurdities of 7th edition disciplines and abuse. Sanctic is still fine, does what we need. 

- Auto D3 damage on force weapons is a big deal, D6 on hammers is great. I have no issues with streamlining our melee into 'you hit like a freight train, buffs are nice but optional' vs 'first cast this many powers to be good'. 

- Strikes remain garbage, Terminators are big winners with 2W and 2D6 save. Paladins may finally have a use. 

- Purgators being able to move and shoot at -1 is a million times better than Snap Fire. The changes to psilencer are fine, I prefer it over being useless without 'Force' and only okay with it (D3 damage is great). Psycannon does 2 damage at -1 to armour saves, this is in line with assault cannons and its still S7, so largely no change. I'd expect Purgators to be popular in 8th, they're great at bringing multiple heavy weapons. 

- Purifiers got hit hard with the nerf stick, no idea why. Cannot think of a reason I'd take them over Paladins in 8th. 

- Dreadknights are still beatsticks, I like the changes because it focuses them back onto melee, whereas before they were more a mobile gun platform that eventually charges. 8" movement is great, as is 9" deepstrike + charge. They're still a cornerstone of our list, they're just not needed to be spammed. 

- Dreadnoughts will see play. Twin lascannon is 2 shots now, and D6 damage is handy. 

[Holier Than Thou]

Unless I'm missing something, a lot of what you're summarising is wrong.

 

D6 on Hammers is only on the Dreadknights Hammer (with a minimum of 3 damage no matter what you rolled), straight 3 damage for all others

Terminators don't have a 2d6 save

Psycannon does 1 damage per shot, Dreadknight's Heavy Psycannon does 2 damage

 

Apologies if I've read something wrong but can you please clarify?

 

Thanks

[Valerian]

Darius, a couple points

Pysycannon only do D1; it's the Heavy Psycannon that does D2 (if memory serves).

Terminators still save on 2+ on a single d6 (your post made it seem like you thought they rolled on 2d6)

 

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Holier Than Thou.  And he's right about the Daemonhammer, too

Edited May 31, 2017 by Valerian

[Valerian]

LuisMars,

Good find on the Librarian getting a storm shield; that's a no-brainer, then. However, is bet it is temporary, and will go away when we get our actual Codex, so I'd figure out how to magnetize that option, if I were you.

 

 

So, out of my collection, it looks like this is what I've got to play with at start:

*snip*
Grand Total of 2187 points before I start figuring out what to drop, what to add, what to change, etc.

Looking at their Datasheets, since it says "[...] a Storm Bolter[...]" it means, to me at least, that you HAVE to buy a Storm Bolter for everyone in your squads who isnt getting a special weapon.

So you can't purchase less than 4 in a 5 man squad for example.

Slips, I gave everybody a storm bolter that is supposed to have them, and pretty sure that I paid for them all appropriately. Let me know if the points on any of the units didn't come out correctly, though.

 

 

Voldus is exactly the same as a gkgm, but has a super hammer and no options?

 

He's also Mastery Level 3, and thus knows all three of our Sanctic Powers plus Smite, which is one more than a regular Grand Master.  So that along with the super hammer makes him worthwhile.

 

Might have my missed it, but are there no longer Relics for GKs to take? No more Soulblade or Libre Daemonica? Or will those come later?

 

Those will come in the Codexes.  We've known that for quite a while, that Relics will be in the codex, as well as other faction-specific stuff (stratagems, tactical objectives, etc.).

 

Something else I asked in a thread that got locked without anyone answering, Flamer weapons no longer ignore cover? They auto-hit but cover is now a bonus to armour saving throws. The Guard's Eradicator Nova Cannon specifically has a rule that states targets don't get a bonus from cover, flamers don't seem to have this rule.

 

 

 

Yes, Flamers no longer ignore Cover.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

I missed some, well, huge.

 

Imperium is a faction Keyword.

 

And Detachments list a restriction that all units must come from the same Faction.

 

We could choose Imperium or even Adeptus Astartes as our Faction Keywords, in addition to Grey Knights.

 

That means we can have Tiggy as our HQ choice, leading a Squad of GK Paladin, backed by a Troop of Custodian Guard...

 

So open ended.

[LuisMars]

Yes, you can do that, however you won't get faction specific stratagems. They'll have to be really reallly good if they want to avoid having a random Imperium keyword army.

[Valerian]

Ya I never thought of that with bro captain. Guaranteed GoI on units will pbly be decent for them as well.

If a unit knows GoI they can cast it on themselves right? ..self teleporting units

 

I'm reasonably sure that yes, all of the Psychic powers can be cast on the unit that resolves the powers.  Would be really odd for a unit not to be able to cast Hammerhand and Gate on itself.

 

Really not impressed that there is no perils mitigation, and the 1 power per turn thing is a huge debuff., means we'll only be casting 3 decent powers a whole turn, then sprinkling in the smite a whole bunch, and hope we don't kill half a squad

Yeah, agreed; that really hurts us. The nerfed version of Smite only does 1 mortal wound to an enemy unit, but can do up to d3 mortal wounds to ourselves (via Perils), or even more to nearby friendly units, if you kill yourself off. It's a 1/18 chance for a Perils, but still doesn't seem to be worth the effort/risk. I think I'm going to need to save up all of my Command Points just to re-roll any Perils that come up in a game. At least we have that possibility, but it'd be nice to get to use those Command Points for other things.

 

And from what I've seen, terminators now being 46pts each with bolters, and paladins still being 55 with bolters for an extra wound. I'd say it's more efficient to use paladins.

Definitely true. Only issue is how you want to maximize your Command Points by taking a Detachment with Troops. If you want to fit in the Battalion Detachment, for example, then you need a couple Troops choices, and Terminators definitely win over Strikes. If you want to take an Elite heavy Detachment that leaves Troops out entirely, then Paladins are definitely the way to go. One good thing is that the models are interchangeable, so you can experiment a little to see which you like better.

 

Also all basic force weapons are free, I can't see points for falchions? I'd much rather have +1 attack than an extra ap or strength. Especially since everything can hurt everything now.

Yes, free Falchions with AP-2 and the extra Attack are going to be quite nice in 8e. It's too bad I don't have a single model with those armed - I'll need to decide if it is worth the expense and effort to buy an extra box of each kit and sprinkle some Falchions around throughout my units. Probably is.

 

So for me, brother captains, paladins and apothecaries are now auto includes.

I'm still liking the Grand Master over the Brother Captain. They get an extra Mastery Level, extra Attack, and give the 6" buff to re-roll all to-hit rolls (which would work for Shooting and Close combat). I like that a lot better than the double-ranged Smite buff that the Brother-Captain gives, unless you're specifically pairing the Brother-Captain with Purifiers, and even then you don't really need to Captain to make use of those Purifiers if you can get them within 3".

 

And the dreadknight, I'm not sure on the teleporter. It's absolutely worth it for 10pts,but am I residing it right? It says we can deepstrike, but at the end of each movement phase we can redeploy? Much the the interceptors, but every turn not once per battle?

No, it's just a one-time deployment option. Still probably worth the 10 points though, as you might get lucky and make a first turn charge on a 9+ roll on 2d6.

 

 

Edit: can we use powers in combat do we know? Because if we can, then purifiers are actually pretty good doing d6 unsavable wounds.

Yes, we ought to be able to cast powers even while locked in close combat. However, you'll have already gone through 2 Fight phases (assuming your Purifiers were the ones that charged) before we roll around to our next Psychic phase. Those Purifiers would have hopefully dealt with the enemy unit with their Nemesis weapons by that point.

[Holier Than Thou]

 

Something else I asked in a thread that got locked without anyone answering, Flamer weapons no longer ignore cover? They auto-hit but cover is now a bonus to armour saving throws. The Guard's Eradicator Nova Cannon specifically has a rule that states targets don't get a bonus from cover, flamers don't seem to have this rule.

 

 

Yes, Flamers no longer ignore Cover.

That's disappointing but thanks for clarifying.

[Gentlemanloser]

Going for a Battalion, why not take minim SM Scouts?  They're Faction Imperium, so get round the restriction.

 

No need to use our GKT minis for anything other than Paladin.

 

Same for our PAGK minis as anything other than Interceptors.

 

Purifiers might be fun if you stack them with Stern/BCs to double double their smite range.  But apart from that, with the weakness of our special guns, I don't see Purgation squads being worth it.

 

Free Warding Staves as Force Weapon of choice for all our troops?  5++ in CC, or plus 1++ for our Paladin?  Might be worth it unless you want an offensive choppy unit.

 

I'm gonna trawl the imperial units to see if any besides Inquisitors can buff us.

[Gentlemanloser]

Morale;

 

I don't like how both the Death Wing and Deathwatch Terminators auto pass Morale tests, and we don't. :/

[Bartali]

Ughh. GKT/ Paladins don't get Teleport Homers. 

 

These allow regular Terminators to bounce back to Homers that have been placed in your deployment zone instead of moving. You can shoot/assault as normal after teleporting.

 

I guess GW want GK to use GoI instead, but if your army can only cast it once per turn ? (and it may not go off/blocked/perils)

[Myunch]

It seems Purifiers don't have the Rites of Bamishment special rule that nerfs Smite. Maybe that's their gimmick.

 

Disregard... I'm an idiot.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Myunch

[Gentlemanloser]

They don't have Rites (and nor does Stern) because their unit rules modify Smite instead. Edit: I was gonna make a post shouting that Purifiers Smite was full and and D3 Mortal Wounds as well! :P

Unsurprisingly, RG looks like a great HQ for a GK army...

 

Where's that rolleyes gif...

 

Author of the Codex: +3 Command Points

 

Master of Battle: +1 Advance/Charge rolls for Imperium units within 12", and reroll to hits of 1 and failed Morale Tests

 

Counts as RG as Draigo returned?

 

Calgar would give us +2 Command Points as our HQ.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gentlemanloser]

Is there any difference between a Storm Bolter (Rapid 2) and a Combi Bolter (Rapid 2)?

[Myunch]

Is there any difference between a Storm Bolter (Rapid 2) and a Combi Bolter (Rapid 2)?

#aesthetics

 

=P

Edited May 31, 2017 by Myunch

[Valerian]

Going for a Battalion, why not take minim SM Scouts?  They're Faction Imperium, so get round the restriction.

 

 

They'd certainly work, but they're an extra unit-tax that you'd have to take, which aren't worth the investment just to make your GKT into Paladins.  Plus, they're weedy Scouts.  Who wants the weedy Scouts of regular Space Marine Chapters in their Grey Knights army?  

[Valerian]

 

Unsurprisingly, RG looks like a great HQ for a GK army...

 

Author of the Codex: +3 Command Points

 

Master of Battle: +1 Advance/Charge rolls for Imperium units within 12", and reroll to hits of 1 and failed Morale Tests

 

 

He's a Primarch - what did you expect?  He'd make a great HQ for every army.  I haven't looked, but I'm guessing he's pretty expensive, though, so you can take him if you want, but will have to sacrifice quite a bit in opportunity costs to do so.

[Gentlemanloser]

He's 360 points.

 

Expensive, but about the same cost as a Land Raider.

[Captain Coolpants]

I've noticed that we aren't paying for justicars and such correct?

So even though we can't spam warp charges, we're still better off in 5 man squads. It helps for morale as well I guess.

I'm surprised that the incinerator and psycannon are the same points now.

 

And am I correct in thinking that we don't have to equip guns now?

 

And why are terminators paying more for guns, when they don't get better utility out of them from things like relentless?

 

I'm just hoping people at battlescribe get to work now since all the points and units are out. Try and get it done before release.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Captain Coolpants

[Segismundo]

The techmarine now can fix d3 wounds, sounds good for the dreadknight.

[Valerian]

I've noticed that we aren't paying for justicars and such correct?

So even though we can't spam warp charges, we're still better off in 5 man squads. It helps for morale as well I guess.

That's right - free Justicars for us, and for Sergeants throughout all of the Space Marines units. So that's another small buff.

 

I'm surprised that the incinerator and psycannon are the same points now.

 

And am I correct in thinking that we don't have to equip guns now?

What do you mean by don't have to equip guns now?

 

And why are terminators paying more for guns, when they don't get better utility out of them from things like relentless?

They pay more because they don't have to give up their Nemesis force weapons when they trade for a special ranged weapon. For GK in power armour, you have to give up the storm bolter and the special close combat weapon, so you get it at a slightly discounted rate.

 

 

The techmarine now can fix d3 wounds, sounds good for the dreadknight.

 

Yes, the Techmarines appear better across the board now; I noticed the auto-heal of d3 Wounds from Battlesmith on the Space Wolves' Iron Priest, so assume we get the same thing (without going to double-check).

[Captain Coolpants]

 

 

I'm surprised that the incinerator and psycannon are the same points now.

 

And am I correct in thinking that we don't have to equip guns now?

 

What do you mean by don't have to equip guns now?

 

As in, if we were sooo strapped for points, or just for giggles, we don't actually have to pay/equip the storm bolters as it's not auto included?