leth Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 It says specifically a model may have ONE of the following, not swap for one of the following, may have ONE. Shotgun and boltguns are both there preventing the having both part. Also it seems like watch sergeants and black shields are free upgrades now!! Awesome sauce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moostick Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Think boy is saying that you can swap the bolter for bolter + pistol, which is LIKE swapping the bolter for bolter + shotgun. He's not saying you can do the latter. No, you can't get bolter + shotgun, but yes, you can get bolter + bolt pistol, as bolter comes from the bottom list, and bolt pistol from the top one. Edit: Should add that being able to do this makes chainswords a nonsense choice. Bolt pistol gets you that AP2 shot in melee now with the same S, so...TIME FOR MORE SURGERY, MY DW! Edit 2: Positives: Captains are now reasonable in points and give rerolls. Stick a Jump Pack Captain with a Combi-Plasma and power sword and he's only 112 points. Have him Deepstrike in next to a Drop Pod Plasma unit and make it raaaaain. Assault units consisting of Veterans and Terminators are viable. They're still not cheap, but they're viable. A Terminator with a storm bolter + power sword is only 31+2+4 = 37 pts. TH + SS comes in at a ridiculous 66 points though. Veterans can take a bolt pistol + power weapon at 23 pts. Stick them in a Corvus and you have a close combat hack unit. Honestly, I was feeling a little down and while I still believe we are not balanced with other factions, the idea of modeling a Veteran double fisting a plasma gun and bolter in each hand as a stand-in for combi-plasma has gotten me excited again. Also thanks for pointing out Factions are a thing for Detachments. PREDATORS HERE I COME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silas7 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Corvus blackstar launchers are nice. Anti-air combined with anti ground and volume of dice for 30pts -The corvid warheads are the go-to profile. Depending on cost of stormstrike missile launcher, i'd take the blackstars missiles and hurricane bolters with halo launcher everytime for pure dakka. Stalkers are still decent. Watch master has a better sv vs arty and boltgun+spear his buff is less situational but loses fnp. Base cost is the same as arty kitted out though, definitely a toss up for me right now. Xeno-phase going down in pts is nice. DW termis with TH/SS are almost auto include for morale and wound tanking. Those tele homers are nice for emergency retreat/ sneaky objective rush in your own deployment zone. I'll have to take another look for psychic disciplines we can use. Edit: post was redundant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyadventurer Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Yeah Moo got it right, I'm talking about how, originally, the way it was worded, you could take the bolter + shotgun, which was a clear upgrade over just bollter, for free. Then they squash that as that wasn't what they intended. Now we can swap our stock bolter to get a free bolt pistol, plus a bolter for free. Especially with the way pistols work now, that's a pretty big upgrade over the stock bolter again. Which makes me nervous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexicanum Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 If we take a Watch Captain using the vanilla Marine Captain datasheet, he doesn't have SIA, does he? That seems like an issue given that Artemis has SIA. And Chaplains and Librarians using the vanilla datasheet have the same issue, right? Am I missing something? A few pages of the data sheets at a guess or the other guess is everything will get fleshed out at a later date once the initial hit and feedback has settled us all in and were using vanilla SM to fill the gaps. I'd expect quite a few typo's and some re-balancing once this hits the floor though we've been told the Frontline guys & others proof tested all of it so you'd hope for it to be generally water tight. If a generic Captain replaces the CHAPTER keyword with DEATHWATCH, then he receives the Special Issue Ammo as well. Can you cite the page for that? I'm not seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Sooo, let's see: I like how Overkill models have doubly illegal loadouts now is some cases Inferno pistol has insane point cost. Um, I beg your pardon? You can take a whole pile of plasma pistols for that! DW dreadnought neutered still. Wut? WHY? They even had to print neutered table of gear they can take instead of allowing default! Shotguns and stalkers are apparently made out of solid gold now judging by their point prices. Le sigh. Still no access to cataphractii/tartaros, of hell, any of FW/plastic HH units we were promised ages ago... No more assault heavy bolters, despite all the suspensor fluff Termie captain gets even more insane wargear restrictions than last book Still no relic blade for VV, despite Vanguard sergeants being now a thing Hellfire flamer on Artemis heavy nerf... (though stasis bomb now more accurate, if random) No more all-heavy gun termies, not that it was really practical option; Special issue ammo wording is really ambiguous (thanks, GW, for laziness) - RAW we have only rapid fire gun in game that doesn't double shots in half range... Wait, did I just read correctly you can replace bolter with 2 pistols?? We Cyphers lite now? EDIT: scratch that, seems I spooked myself, although it's a bit weird. You take the boltgun you can swap for two items from the DW equipment list and take a bolter with a chainsword. Really? To me it reads 2 items form the pistol/melee list, OR one gun, no mix and match... By your interpretation, we can swap bolter for bolter + extra thing which would be the first time for GW doing this... I feel we just found bolter/shotgun of 8th edition here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexicanum Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Now we can swap our stock bolter to get a free bolt pistol, plus a bolter for free. Especially with the way pistols work now, that's a pretty big upgrade over the stock bolter again. Which makes me nervous... I don't think they mind that you can have a pistol and a second ranged weapon for free. You're giving up the option to have a special weapon, a combi weapon or even a very cheap power sword. They removed the very specific loophole(s) that allowed you to take two "1.5-handed" weapons. Like a bolter and a shotgun. Or even a bolter and a meltagun (which wasn't specifically ruled out after the FAQ but was probably equally wrong if considering the intent of their FAQ answer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moostick Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 The only second weapon we can take now is a pistol or a melee weapon, which makes sense. This was a way to keep Veterans with a bolter + pistol/melee, but close the loop hole of having 2 "rifle/heavy" weapons. After thoroughly reading the rule set, I'm less disappointed, but disappointed in several things that were unique to us no longer being a staple or just plain bad. The unique things are SIA, FC, IHB, Stalkers, Corvus, and the ability to take ton of specials. Being completely objective about these particular things: SIA: Awesome. It's our thing now. FC: It did not get nerfed, but other guns got buffed so hard that this is no longer a "must-have" IHB: It still sucks. Really no arguing this. Stalkers: Without Sniper, it's a glorified Bolter. Is it worth the 4 pts? Hard to say. Corvus: Considering how much more expensive vehicles, especially transports, got in general, this is a huge plus. Specials: I'll say it again. Combi-Plasmas. The new staple of our faction. Edit: Added Stalkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Specials: I'll say it again. Combi-Plasmas. The new staple of our faction. Let me point out that 2x plasma pistol (or if you want really cheap, plasma/bolt pistol) cost less and give you same 2 shots in 12 inches, but extra capability in melee. I am now tempted to make Vanguard squad full of plasma pistols to combo it with FLY (insert much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Sisters of Battle players) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyadventurer Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 If we take a Watch Captain using the vanilla Marine Captain datasheet, he doesn't have SIA, does he? That seems like an issue given that Artemis has SIA. And Chaplains and Librarians using the vanilla datasheet have the same issue, right? Am I missing something? A few pages of the data sheets at a guess or the other guess is everything will get fleshed out at a later date once the initial hit and feedback has settled us all in and were using vanilla SM to fill the gaps. I'd expect quite a few typo's and some re-balancing once this hits the floor though we've been told the Frontline guys & others proof tested all of it so you'd hope for it to be generally water tight. If a generic Captain replaces the CHAPTER keyword with DEATHWATCH, then he receives the Special Issue Ammo as well. Can you cite the page for that? I'm not seeing it. PG 171 says any of the units we share with vanilla SM changes <Chapter> to <Deathwatch>, but SIA is listed as a special ability, not tied to the faction keyword. Guess we should start an Errata request thread already eh Prot? That and stalkers not getting sniper both seem unintentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobius0288 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Dang, i skipped over the equipment restriction sentence... so the only way to get stormshields on veterans is gonna be with pistols or melee? poop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macabre Slanneshi Prince Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Specials: I'll say it again. Combi-Plasmas. The new staple of our faction. Let me point out that 2x plasma pistol (or if you want really cheap, plasma/bolt pistol) cost less and give you same 2 shots in 12 inches, but extra capability in melee. I am now tempted to make Vanguard squad full of plasma pistols to combo it with FLY (insert much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Sisters of Battle players) What extra capability in melee? You won't get a bonus attack, and you can't shoot them again until the next shooting phase anyway. If our dudes are locked in combat for two turns we're probably dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobius0288 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Specials: I'll say it again. Combi-Plasmas. The new staple of our faction. Let me point out that 2x plasma pistol (or if you want really cheap, plasma/bolt pistol) cost less and give you same 2 shots in 12 inches, but extra capability in melee. I am now tempted to make Vanguard squad full of plasma pistols to combo it with FLY (insert much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Sisters of Battle players) What extra capability in melee? You won't get a bonus attack, and you can't shoot them again until the next shooting phase anyway. If our dudes are locked in combat for two turns we're probably dead. In one of the first warhammer community posts, they mentioned pistols in some fashion. You get to fire both pistols in shooting and still counts as melee in close combat (+1 on the charge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I just do not understand maintaining all the random restrictions (Dread weapons, no jump pack for Chaplain or Librarian, etc.) tand why new ones are introduced (no SIA on combis?!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexicanum Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 PG 171 says any of the units we share with vanilla SM changes <Chapter> to <Deathwatch>, but SIA is listed as a special ability, not tied to the faction keyword. Guess we should start an Errata request thread already eh Prot? That and stalkers not getting sniper both seem unintentional. Yeah, I agree that the Chapter changes to Deathwatch per pg171, but the Deathwatch keyword doesn't seem to confer SIA, which is what the original poster was suggesting, and what I would have liked to see a source for. I can't tell if the Stalker change is an oversight or a balancing factor. Maybe they want to limit Sniper effect ubiquity to help characters in this edition. I'd love to see it back though. Some very weird changes in this book overall. Can it really be intended that a Black Shield is the same price as a Veteran? +1A and the special rule on one model in each Kill Team for free? I just do not understand maintaining all the random restrictions (Dread weapons, no jump pack for Chaplain or Librarian, etc.) tand why new ones are introduced (no SIA on combis?!). I believe RAW, we get SIA on combi-weapons for squads that have SIA. You're still firing a "boltgun" profile with the combi-weapon if you look at the name of the weapon in the wargear section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morovir Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Am I correct in assuming that a Terminator can still take a Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield and a Cyclone Missile Launcher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moostick Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Am I correct in assuming that a Terminator can still take a Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield and a Cyclone Missile Launcher? RAW, you exchange the SB for CML + SB, and then the SB+PF for TH+SS, so from that it's legal. That's 116 117 points though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexicanum Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I guess technically you can, as you "replace" your storm bolter to get a Cyclone and the storm bolter back again (from the heavy weapons list). Then you can trade away the new storm bolter and your power fist for TH/SS.It looks like they broke the Assault Cannon / Cyclone setup though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silas7 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 OP Link is down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macabre Slanneshi Prince Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 What extra capability in melee? You won't get a bonus attack, and you can't shoot them again until the next shooting phase anyway. If our dudes are locked in combat for two turns we're probably dead. In one of the first warhammer community posts, they mentioned pistols in some fashion. You get to fire both pistols in shooting and still counts as melee in close combat (+1 on the charge). Yeah, you can fire them in the shooting phase, but you can also fire your combi-plas and be just as good in combat. Only advantage pistols have is that you can fire them while locked in combat, but the Deathwatch aren't really durable enough for that to be desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moostick Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Seems GW put the crack down on the leaks. I managed to make an Excel Spreadsheet for some early list building before they shut it down. I'm missing a few weapon options, but I believe it's mostly complete. I'll put it in the link below. First tab is just general info; the second tab is a crude list builder. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B851LH3J6bnlTVExWE45T3RubHc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobius0288 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 What extra capability in melee? You won't get a bonus attack, and you can't shoot them again until the next shooting phase anyway. If our dudes are locked in combat for two turns we're probably dead. In one of the first warhammer community posts, they mentioned pistols in some fashion. You get to fire both pistols in shooting and still counts as melee in close combat (+1 on the charge). Yeah, you can fire them in the shooting phase, but you can also fire your combi-plas and be just as good in combat. Only advantage pistols have is that you can fire them while locked in combat, but the Deathwatch aren't really durable enough for that to be desirable. Agreed. Not saying pistols are better then a boltgun, but don't totally discount them since most of our guns/power is going to be short to medium range. SIA helps a little for them. You also have to remember Captains in 7th had bolts of eryxia which had potential as a double pistol loadout (again, in an already short to medium army). You could have some use now with the watch sergeants unless you choose to abuse the wargear loophole everyone's excited about. To be honest though, challenges are dead from the rules so I'm not really worried about making sure I have sergeants this time except to have xeno-phase blades and/or auspex. Tactics are changing for sure. Am I correct in assuming that a Terminator can still take a Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield and a Cyclone Missile Launcher? RAW, you exchange the SB for CML + SB, and then the SB+PF for TH+SS, so from that it's legal. That's 116 117 points though. It said the Cyclone Missile Launcher and Stormbolter counted as a single heavy weapons choice (no more than 3 per terminator squad), you won't be able to further replace the stormbolter for a hammer and shield. Kind of an opportunity really: 2 assault cannons, 1 CML, 2 SS/TH On that note, I wonder if you'd be able to change up your kill team termies/bikers/vangaurds or if you're stuck with the defaults. Can't remember and too late to verify with the link down.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyadventurer Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Yeah you can swap out the termie/van/biker gear too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyadventurer Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Ermmm weird, no jink for bikers anymore. Same with regular marines and ork bikers. Have only seen it on Ravenwing so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 The SS at 15 looks like a typo, the SS is all over the artwork and pics from KT's 15 is a non starter given that you'd want to equip a VV squad and having the equivalent marine squad 50 points cheaper doesn't make any sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.