Matched Play Psychic Phase Rule of 1

[Valerian]

I need to go looking through the core rulebook later today and see if there are any limitations on multiple buffs.

[Myunch]

I have to say that while we are somewhat limited in matched play Psychic Phase, the good news is that although we may only be able to cast 3 powers + Smite spam per turn, we will hardly lose the ability to cast all of our powers like other armies might. Losing a Librarian or BC with two powers won't hurt as hard as all our other units can cast, I see that as a good thing. Edited June 1, 2017 by Myunch

[Valerian]

We'll also be able to spam Deny across the board, so that's a definite positive.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's not really an advantage.

 

If you face a psyker-lite army, we get the usual 1 (or 2) attempts to deny 1 (or 2) powers.

 

If we face a psyker-heavy army, where our multiple units with deny matters, then tey also have multiple deny's available to them, and can do the same to us.

 

It's a wash really.

 

Edit This is another problem with the rule of one.

 

If you as a non psyker army face the GKs or other Psyker Heavy army) you might not be able to deny anything, but you know your opponent can only attempt to cast 3 powers max anyway.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Holier Than Thou]

That's not really an advantage.

 

If you face a psyker-lite army, we get the usual 1 (or 2) attempts to deny 1 (or 2) powers.

 

If we face a psyker-heavy army, where our multiple units with deny matters, then tey also have multiple deny's available to them, and can do the same to us.

 

It's a wash really.

 

Edit This is another problem with the rule of one.

 

If you as a non psyker army face the GKs or other Psyker Heavy army) you might not be able to deny anything, but you know your opponent can only attempt to cast 3 powers max anyway.

Exactly. A wholly psychic army SHOULD dominate the psychic phase, not have a slight advantage over a psyker-less army. And a power that ALL psykers know shouldn't be toned down because a whole army is psychic, it should be the same all round. Unless they are suggesting a squad of Grey Knights (or even a Grand Master) are collectively weaker as a psyker than an Astra Militarum sanctioned psyker? Edited June 1, 2017 by Holier Than Thou

[Valerian]

It's for balance guys.  We did want a balanced edition, didn't we?  Don't want Grey Knights curb-stomping everyone they face, as we did back when the 5e codex was new.

[Gentlemanloser]

We should also note that due to rolling into the SM, sorry Imperial Codex, our GK Librarians *do not* have Rites of Banishment, so do not have the nerfed Smite that every other unit has.

 

The Techmarine and Dreadnought do, however...

 

Edt: Straight face Val! ;)

 

Strikes and Crowe like the Balance of 8th! :P

Edited June 1, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Valerian]

Well, clearly they didn't get a home-run with all of our internal balance, but it's better than it was, at first examination.  Also nobody other than the play-testers have actually played any games yet, so it's still early to be decrying external balance.  Let's hold off on the complaining until everyone gets a few dozen games under their belts.

[Myunch]

Not seeing how we're not gonna dominate the psychic phase tbh, even in matched play... how many other armies are going to consistently tote more than 1-2 psykers? Daemons? Sure bring it on! I agree the balance doesn't seem perfect but it's definitely in the right direction from what we're gathering.

[Valerian]

I need to go looking through the core rulebook later today and see if there are any limitations on multiple buffs.

 

Just went through the core and advanced rules (some skimming) and couldn't find any limitations on multiple buffs.  Probably worth asking those experienced with AoS, and maybe asking the Facebook team, too, just in case.

[Zamtro]

We should also note that due to rolling into the SM, sorry Imperial Codex, our GK Librarians *do not* have Rites of Banishment, so do not have the nerfed Smite that every other unit has.

 

The Techmarine and Dreadnought do, however...

 

Edt: Straight face Val!

 

Strikes and Crowe like the Balance of 8th!

Although on the Grey Knights page it does say any units we take from the SM (that we are allowed) become Faction/Chapter GK's - and that GK Psykers must take their powers from the GK list =\ Seems like taking a libby doesn't grant us any extra access!

[Aethernitas]

Played two matched games with the full rules today. both 1000 points of GKs plus a little Inquisition. One against Eldar and one against Necrons. It wasn't really competitive, we didn't play any specific missions - just 5 turns of "kill 'em all".

I used slightly different lists but the units I tried were Paladins (unit of 5), Paladin Ancient, Apothecary, Tempestus Scions (as ][ Stormtrooper), Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, Interceptors, Dreadknight, Dreadnought, Stormraven and Strikes.

Biggest takeaway: Flying transports are insane. In one game I flew in my Strikes and a Dreadnought, in the other my Paladins plus the Ancient. With the insane move value you can easily reach every point on the table, you don't have to hover or anything and if you survive one turn multiple units disembark 3", move normally, shoot on whatever the :cuss they want and then charge one or more units each. The Stormraven is quite sutrdy. In the Necron game it survived the combined fire of 20 warriors, 10 immortals and Imothec's insane mortal wound arrow (does 1D6 mortal wounds in 48" range once a game, he rolled a 5) with 6 wounds left, dropped his payload and moved and shot normally afterwards.

Worst moment: When my Eldar opponent disembark from a Serpent with Scythe-Wraithguards, proceeded to autohit my Stormraven with the scythes and did 12 wounds, then proceeded to charge my Paladins, hit first (with Wraith Constructs?! :cuss?) and demonstrated that even Wraithguards now have VERY respectable melee weapons by punching 2 Paladins to mush.

I think it's very important to mention that the pychic phase felt very tacked on and more like a lottery than an actual reliable tactical option. There is no way to influence to probability even for situationally very important casts. My opponents soon realized that the GK's Smite tickles at best and at it's worse (which happened two times) you peril and do more mortal wounds to yourselve than Smite did to the opponent in the whole game. If they have even a few psychers (and Eldar had more than enough) they just wait for you non-Smite casts and if you actually manage to cast them they try to deny those. During all 10 turns of both games together I manage to cast 5 non-Smite powers overall. Two Hammerhands and a GoI in the Necron game and one Hammerhand and GoI in the Eldar game. Thats pretty damn frustrating (especially against Necrons with no denies at all) if you're one of the primary psychic faction in the game.
I really hope the "Rule of One" will get an errata. I don't think it's enough to solve it for GKs with a codex specific rule, because this restrictions will heavily limit any factions psychic untility at a certain army size (assuming they can take psykers at all).

The games went quite smooth considering those were the first 8th edition games we ever played. First game took like 3 hours because the Eldar player had no clue at all what his new rules were. Second game we actually finished in the predicted 2 hours. I was pleasently surprised.

Overall very fun games :)

Edited June 2, 2017 by Aethernitas

[Valerian]

Awesome.  Glad you got some games in, and appreciate the feedback.  

 

Biggest takeaway: Flying transports are insane. In one game I flew in my Strikes and a Dreadnought, in the other my Paladins plus the Ancient. With the insane move value you can easily reach every point on the table, you don't have to hover or anything and if you survive one turn multiple units disembark 3", move normally, shoot on whatever the :cuss they want and then charge one or more units each. The Stormraven is quite sutrdy. In the Necron game it survived the combined fire of 20 warriors, 10 immortals and Imothec's insane mortal wound arrow (does 1D6 mortal wounds in 48" range once a game, he rolled a 5) with 6 wounds left, dropped his payload and moved and shot normally afterwards.

 

I've been wanting to add a Stormraven for a while, but just never got around to investing in one.  I can definitely see their utility in this edition, especially.  I need to go review their new data slate again.  Given all of their Twin firepower options, super mobility, and transport capacity, I could probably drop several of my current army list units and still come out way ahead with one of these.  Thinking about it some more, I wouldn't actually need to add a Dreadnought, if I just added one of these.

 

Thanks again, and thanks for answering all of our questions the other day before the big leak dropped.

 

Valerian

[Beacham]

Ah, I didn't read it like that, but can see my confusion.

 

Three things I'd like FAQed now.

 

1: Number of Dedicated Transports

2: Do same powers stack (like 2 Locus' from 2 Brother Captains)

3: Do units with aura buffs buff themselves

I re-read the Brother Captain's Locus and it seems pretty clear from the wording that 2 Brother Captains can't stack it. Not sure if a Brother Captain could stack on top of, say, a Stern. Will have to re-read the Stern entry

[Soder]

The sky shield landing pad can actually "repair" wounds now for flyers who land on it (or something like that) Dunno if anyone has seen the fortification rules Edited June 2, 2017 by Soder

[Holier Than Thou]

It's for balance guys.  We did want a balanced edition, didn't we?  Don't want Grey Knights curb-stomping everyone they face, as we did back when the 5e codex was new.

Yes, we want a balanced edition. It's balanced by the fact we will generally be outnumbered by everyone we face. It's balanced by us having such limited access to ranged heavy weaponry. It's not balanced by taking a key aspect of the army and flat out nerfing AND restricting it.

 

Have you seen the Necron's Reanimation Protocols? They have a 33% chance (can be boosted to 50%) to get back any casualties they suffer, not just the turn they die, EVERY TURN! They just keep rolling until they get back up or until the whole unit is destroyed. How the hell is that balanced? It's a key aspect of their army but no rule to say you can only try this once per turn or anything.

 

Khorne Berserkers get to attack twice in a combat. A key aspect of their army, no restrictions. I'm pretty sure letting one of, if not THE best close combat unit in the game use their best feature twice every combat they're in is a helluva lot more powerful than our 1 attack Strikes/Purifiers getting +1 to wound.

 

There's a Detachment that let's you take 3-5 Superheavies and actually rewards you for doing so with the second-highest number of Command Points available!!! Can you imagine if Imperial Knights had a rule that said they couldn't use their Thermal Cannon if another Knight had already used that weapon this turn???

 

So, no, I don't think stopping us use one of our signature themes is balanced in the slightest.

[Gentlemanloser]

And those sneaky Eldar!  They look like hell to fight.

[the jeske]

I have to say that while we are somewhat limited in matched play Psychic Phase, the good news is that although we may only be able to cast 3 powers + Smite spam per turn, we will hardly lose the ability to cast all of our powers like other armies might. Losing a Librarian or BC with two powers won't hurt as hard as all our other units can cast, I see that as a good thing.

I think the problem for some people is that for GK armies the more efficient[not saying fluffy] way to play is take a non-GK librarian over a GK one.

 

 

How the hell is that balanced?

 

That is actualy the smaller problem. If you wipe out a unit it stays dead. The bigger problem are huge tesla immortal squads buffed by lords that get exploding dice on +5.

[Seizeman]

 

Ah, I didn't read it like that, but can see my confusion.

 

Three things I'd like FAQed now.

 

1: Number of Dedicated Transports

2: Do same powers stack (like 2 Locus' from 2 Brother Captains)

3: Do units with aura buffs buff themselves

I re-read the Brother Captain's Locus and it seems pretty clear from the wording that 2 Brother Captains can't stack it. Not sure if a Brother Captain could stack on top of, say, a Stern. Will have to re-read the Stern entry

 

 

Rulebook states that multiple buffs stack unless specified otherwise. The problem is, rules as written, Brother Captain's smite range buff multiplies each time.

Consider the following list

 

3 x brother captain

10 x purifier squads

TOTAL 1944 points

 

You make a blob of dead that does 40 mortal wounds per turn at 24'' range. Plus 200 bolter rounds.

 

I think a FAQ is needed.

[Myunch]

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, I didn't read it like that, but can see my confusion.

 

Three things I'd like FAQed now.

 

1: Number of Dedicated Transports

2: Do same powers stack (like 2 Locus' from 2 Brother Captains)

3: Do units with aura buffs buff themselves

I re-read the Brother Captain's Locus and it seems pretty clear from the wording that 2 Brother Captains can't stack it. Not sure if a Brother Captain could stack on top of, say, a Stern. Will have to re-read the Stern entry

Rulebook states that multiple buffs stack unless specified otherwise. The problem is, rules as written, Brother Captain's smite range buff multiplies each time.

Consider the following list

 

3 x brother captain

10 x purifier squads

TOTAL 1944 points

 

You make a blob of dead that does 40 mortal wounds per turn at 24'' range. Plus 200 bolter rounds.

 

I think a FAQ is needed.

Who in the hell are those 2 extra Purifiers!?!?!

 

That would be awfully scary if that was legal.

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh my.

 

Purifiers backed by multiple BCs might have to be my troll list.

 

Edit: I was thinking of using a few Rhinos to get those Purifiers where they need to be, and DSing in the three BCs into the centre of them.

 

You can d 40 Purifiers, 4 Rhinos and 3 BCs.

 

But.

 

Why not 4 BCs for 48" range and drop the rhinos?  Heck go for 5 BCs (clustered together with the Prufiers around them) for 96" range and just sit in your DZ.

 

brb, seeing how that works

 

Putting this in the Army List subforum

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334197-8th-psychic-locus/

Edited June 2, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[lt051]

The way Psychic Locus is worded I'm pretty sure it doesn't stack. The fact that "Brother-Captains" is plural in the rule would seem to indicate the number of BCs in range doesn't matter, the effect is either on or off.

 

That's my interpretation anyways.

[Valerian]

The way Psychic Locus is worded I'm pretty sure it doesn't stack. The fact that "Brother-Captains" is plural in the rule would seem to indicate the number of BCs in range doesn't matter, the effect is either on or off.

 

That's my interpretation anyways.

 

Yeah, have to agree.  The fact that they made it plural rules out multi-buffing of range, as I read it.

[Soder]

Did you guys see the Thousand Sons faction focus? Their "leader" receives a +2 when casting psychic powers

[lt051]

Did you guys see the Thousand Sons faction focus? Their "leader" receives a +2 when casting psychic powers

Well ya, it's Magnus. Atleast we get our own disciplines