8th edition loadouts

[Adeptus]

Alongside Stormshields, it looks like Titan forgot how to attach banners to the backs of TDA, allowing the Knight to use both hands in combat!

 

Draigo, what a beast.  Stormshield *and* a back banner.

 

That guy.

 

 

The banners on the back have their own set of problems...

 

http://www.tsoalr.com/comics/2005-04-21-166_banners.gif

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah falchions are pretty much to the go to option now, especially because there are no more charge attacks. Being free is even better.

 

On characters and Paragons hammers just outdo every other option. I was hoping swords might be viable, but 3 guaranteed damage per wound is strictly better and S8 lets you wound more things reliably. 

[Captain Coolpants]

How we feeling on razorbacks?

All the options seem decent now.

Twin assault cannon stands out. But we also have the vortimer pattern with extra strength, but less shots. Worth it?

 

But the las/Plas has more versatility now than before since it can move and fire everything at different targets.

 

Twin heavy Flamer for 2d6 shots is also not bad!

 

Then of course there's the twin Lascannon. Far more expensive than the other options though.

 

Out of allll the choices. Which do you guys prefer? I can't make my mind up.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Captain Coolpants

[LuisMars]

About the razorback, twin assault cannons performs good against single wound and low T enemies but you have to take into account that we already have lots of options to deal with that kind of enemies. I think Las/Plas is the way to go. Regarding the Twin Psycannon, it's not worth taking, for lower T, Assault Cannons are better and for higher T, Las/Plas is better.

[Adeptus]

But the twin psycannon does look cool...

[Seizeman]

Assault cannon all the way. The other choices are either too expensive or too ineffective.

 

The las/plas is not that good because you can't overcharge the plasma (too risky), and plasma is mediocre if you can't overcharge it. For that price a twin lascannon is better.

 

Twin flamer is garbage for space marines. You average less hits than the assault cannon, with less strenght and ridiculous range. For the same price. Just awful.

 

The heavy bolter is of course a lot worse than the assault cannon or the psycannon. yes, it is cheaper, but then you are making the razorback a non-threat, so I would not recommend it.

 

The twin psycannon is actually pretty good. It is point for point about as efficient as the assault cannon, even a little better depending on the target, and if you are short on points, that 7 point difference may be relevant.

 

Twin lascannon is good by itself, but you are sacrificing a lot of volume and versatility of fire. The problem is a single canon won't make much difference. You need a certain amount of antitank weaponry to do something relevant, and you won't get that by sprinkling some lascannons on your razorbacks. If you want antitank, take a specialised unit like a stormraven or dreads (or deal with them in melee).

[LuisMars]

Twin lascannon is good by itself, but you are sacrificing a lot of volume and versatility of fire. The problem is a single canon won't make much difference. You need a certain amount of antitank weaponry to do something relevant, and you won't get that by sprinkling some lascannons on your razorbacks. If you want antitank, take a specialised unit like a stormraven or dreads (or deal with them in melee).

 

I have to do the math for the Storm raven, but the Razorbacks with Lasscannons are more effective anti tanks than a Venerable Dread for the cost.

[Seizeman]

 

Twin lascannon is good by itself, but you are sacrificing a lot of volume and versatility of fire. The problem is a single canon won't make much difference. You need a certain amount of antitank weaponry to do something relevant, and you won't get that by sprinkling some lascannons on your razorbacks. If you want antitank, take a specialised unit like a stormraven or dreads (or deal with them in melee).

 

I have to do the math for the Storm raven, but the Razorbacks with Lasscannons are more effective anti tanks than a Venerable Dread for the cost.

 

 

No they aren't. A Las/autocannon space marine venerable (no point in having it be GK) deals 0.028 wound per point vs a rhino equivalent while the lascannon razorbacks deal 0.022 wounds per point, and that's assuming the razorbacks do not move, which is unlikely. Against T8 the difference is smaller but still favours the venerable. Using the same case, the stormraven deals 0.027 wounds per point with lascannon and multi melta and not counting the hurricane bolters (I assume they have a better target). The stormraven is better at transporting and has a bigger chance to get a reroll aura (pretty significant if you want to kill something first turn) and, of course, has bolters for anti-infantry, but is slightly less durable than both the razorbacks and the venerables (razorbacks are 15% more durable and venerables 3.5% more, assuming BS 3+, if the shooter has worse BS, the difference is smaller). It also has to get closer to be effective, which puts it more at risk compared to the venerables, but that's debatable since the dreads will usually get isolated and that can be dangerous too.

 

So all in all I favour the stormraven most of the time, but the venerables are a decent choice and how much points you have and general army composition are factors. I would never take las razorbacks, as they don't complement their job as transports (a range of 48 is wasted if you get in range for disembark, and the transport capacity gets wasted if they stay on the back shooting) and, as I stated above, they are just not eficient. In small points games where you are very limited they can be considered, but they are never optimal.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Seizeman

[LuisMars]

(no point in having it be GK)

 

 

You're absolutely right! However this will only last until we get a proper codex.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

After reading Gate of Infinity i think Purgation Squads will be quite a good unit if you want a decent amount of mobile shooting, as orks have basically the exact same power with Da Jump psychic power, but it has one major difference at the of its discription the Ork power says 'this unit counts as moving for all related abilities (e.g. firing heavy weapons). On the other hand ours does not, throw in a Purgation Squad with 4 psilencers or psycannons and have them with GoI, then just teleport them to the place they can cause most damage while firing at full BS (dont move in movement phase, only teleport) and due to the psychic phase following movement phase, these guys can turn up behind a line of palas, terms or strikes to keep them out of charge lines. Just a random thought.

[corwindal5]

Unfortunately you don't fire at full bs because when you gate you remove the unit from the battlefield then place them back on the battlefield. Because you are setting them back up on the battlefield mid-turn you have to follow the rules for reinforcements which says they count as moving. Edited July 5, 2017 by corwindal5

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Just seems strange that one power would specify that it effects heavy weapons while the other doesn't.

 

Edit: Upon re-reading the reinforcement section of the rules, it states many units have the ability to set up this way during the battle, normally in the movement phase, and on arrival a unit may shoot and charge normally. However the last paragraph states a unit entering from reinforcement counts as moving for heavy weapons but as a unit already on the field it has not entered from reiforcement, so the possibility would technically be there.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Brother Captain Sirus

[corwindal5]

The only issue with that is the unit is not on the battlefield. Re-read the rules for gate. It says you remove unit from the battlefield. Then you place them back on the battlefield.

 

For reinforcements it says this "typically" happens in the movement phase, but can also happen during other phases of the game too. So in my opinion it would apply because the wording under gate says you remove the unit from the battlefield. Since you are putting then back on the battlefield you have to follow the rules for reinforcements.

Edited July 5, 2017 by corwindal5

[Valerian]

It's not even really worth pursuing. For their cost, I just don't see Pailencers or Psycannon worth it in 8e. I'd rather stick with the stock Storm Bolters for a cheap, but effective option. And, since they're not Heavy weapons, you don't have to worry about how GoI works.

[Seizeman]

They should give all terminators the old relentless rule back. Now there's no point in taking heavy weapons on terminators, be it grey knights, space marines or chaos ones. 

[Brother Captain Sirus]

@corwindal5 I think we may have both made an oversight in this discussion. We have both refered to reinforcements as some type of USR with how it works. And GoI describes how it works entirely within its own entry.

 

@Valerian I dont think discounting some of our units is in our best interest, we just need consider a different approach, for example a Pugation Squad or any squad has been charged, then just use GoI to remove them from the combat, they havent fallen back so they are free to shoot and charge afterwards without penalty.

Also losing the force weapon in CC isnt going to matter much when you have a unit putting out 26 shots at 24" range with all but 2 causes D3 damage, so i would give a psilencer purgation squad atleast a chance, especially if GoI doesnt effect BS.

[Valerian]

I'm all for playing whatever units you like, and you're welcome to give them a try, but the fact is that certain units and weapons didn't make a good transition from 7e to 8e, and Puragators and Purifiers are among the units, while Psilencers and Psycannons are among the weapons.

 

Thankfully, we should have our new codex by the end of August, so hopefully the designers will have made some major adjustments to what we currently have in the stopgap Index.

[Seizeman]

About GoI and heavy weapons, yes, if you use GoI you have a penalty. A unit that is set up on the battlefield mid turn is a reinforcement, reinforcements count as moved the turn they come, GoI removes the unit from the battlefield and sets it up, mid turn. The rulebook is absolutely clear in this instance.

[corwindal5]

@brother captain sirus. That is true and maybe it should be put in a FAQ for clarification. GW should have said you follow the rules for Reinforcements or you don't. O well I guess we will have to see how the tournement scene will rule it or hope for a FAQ.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Either way i have sent it to the pipeline of things that GW will hopefully cover in an faq, as i think it would be a potential boon for GKs. And in the meantime Augest isnt long to wait.

[Archon_77]

I'm all for playing whatever units you like, and you're welcome to give them a try, but the fact is that certain units and weapons didn't make a good transition from 7e to 8e, and Puragators and Purifiers are among the units, while Psilencers and Psycannons are among the weapons.

 

Thankfully, we should have our new codex by the end of August, so hopefully the designers will have made some major adjustments to what we currently have in the stopgap Index.

In case you don't get the reference :)

 

www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Edited July 5, 2017 by Archon_77

[Waking Dreamer]

Just wondering, does the PAGK box come with enough dual falchions for 5 PA? By the look of things there's only enough for thee of them...?

[Zamtro]

Just wondering, does the PAGK box come with enough dual falchions for 5 PA? By the look of things there's only enough for thee of them...?

I know the old ones used to... not sure about the new ones!

[LuisMars]

I was thinking to go full Darth Maul with the Halbeards to deal with the lack of falchions.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Strike squad box should have enough IIRC. Been a while since I've built Strike Knights. If need be just shorten the regular swords, its not like you'll ever use them.

 

I want psilencers to be good, but the -1 to hit on the move and absurd cost just mean you're gonna do a whole lot of nothing most of the time. No AP value is a big deal, its why storm bolters are mostly good for their shot output (four S4 shots at 12" equates to more saves getting forced). Psycannon is a joke, you pay 20 points to do on average 2 autocannon hits. Also, FYI, you cannot charge after firing them either (same applies to storm bolters, but that usually won't matter because GK do most of their work in melee anyway, and you're forced to take storm bolters).

 

Incinerators are just depressingly bad. It's the same disease for all old template/blast weapons. RNG sucks, and having no synergy with either Teleport Strike or our desire to get into melee...plus they're now 3 times as expensive for no discernible reason. Why bother? GW made a huge mistake chucking out the templates.