Raptors,Warp talons and Jump pack tactics!

[Praetoria]

I think your lack of success was because raptors are a mediocre melee unit. One base attack and no access to power weapons except for the aspiring champion just makes them normal chaos marines with jump packs, which is fairly mediocre compared to dedicated melee units like terminators, chosen and berserkers. Instead I think raptors are far better as a mobile weapons platform for melta/plasma as you can easily drop them within range of their target and withdraw and still shoot if engaged in melee. Still not the best unit but I've seen people use that build with success. 

 

Should have mentioned they were warp talons not raptors. Another tournament next month and Ill increase the unit to 10 and see how that goes. As good as terminators are they dont hold up to damage 2 or greater weapons.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Praetoria

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Raptors epitomize the current design philosophy of the CSM army. Built to close quickly, deliver nasty pointblank shooting, and then FINISH with a charge when the time is right (especially with that Leadership penalty). Just plunging into melee against a fresh enemy squad is generally not what Raptors (or the majority of CSM units, honestly) should be doing. As others have said, linebreaking is the job of Berzerkers, Terminators, and things like Spawn.

 

This is why I run my Raptors MSU to load up on special weapons, pistols, and power weapons. I end up fielding the same number of dudes, just armed to the teeth and more expensive. Blast everything you can, then have multiple chances to get at least a few guys in and let the leadership penalty go to work. 

 

As for Conscripts....it's been discussed in other threads, but just spend a little time and remove them. Flamers, Heavy Bolters, Pyrax bombs, Plague Wind, etc. A buddy of mine who plays World Eaters just annihilates most of the 50 man conscript blob with mass Combi-Bolter fire at 12 in from bikes and dropping Terminators with a Lord nearby for accuracy. Then he makes the resulting long charges using Icon of Wrath and/or Command Points. At that point, their overwatch is too weak to do much and they just get hacked down with Chainswords. Then he replaces the resulting casualties from the Guard Player's follow up shooting by summoning Bloodletters and he's good to go.

 

To be fair, he also uses a few big units like a Knight and a Bloodthirster as fire magnets to force the rest of the Guard army to make a difficult choice after the Conscripts take their dirt nap. Putting stress on enemy fire discipline is an important tactic.

 

I personally have a Heavy Bolter Havoc squad for my Iron Warriors with a Combi-Bolter on the Champion specifically to help with things like this. I've referred to them as "The Lawnmower Men" ever since I first fielded them in 3rd ed. They usually combine fire with a dakka Pred and all of the Havocs and Combi-Bolters on my Rhinos to reduce swarms to manageable levels.

 

A nasty tactic for getting rid of soft hordes is to field two five man Chosen squads with Combi-Bolters on everyone, and then put them in a Rhino with 2 Combis and a Havoc. Roll forward and pop smoke, then on Turn 2, dismount, move, and unleash hell at close range. Make sure to have a mobile Lord or Daemon Prince nearby to reroll 1's.  This is actually pretty cheap, too, for what you get. To bring it back on topic, have Raptors nearby to charge whatever survives....using the Rhino as LOS blockage to eliminate Overwatch.

Edited July 20, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[The Fey Mallory]

Mildly off-topic, but related, I feel, is the importance of giving jump packs to *all* your lords and sorcerers. It didn't click with me at first, but you no longer need to make space for these HQ's in vehicles any more, because you can roll up a unit, get out of the vehicle, and then 'deep strike'/drop in your jump lord or sorcerer, and because they're not enemy models, you can drop them right next to your unit for area of effect bonuses. A nice, safe delivery system. Also, having 12" + D6 movement, they can move between whatever units need support.

 

Also, why is it better for the Raptor Champion to have two plasma pistols, as opposed to a power sword (or suchlike) and a combi-plasma? Just trying to understand the pros and cons...

[Doom Herald]

I use two plasma pistols because it has versatility. You can fire with the two of them, then charge to finish. I use Raptors as utility units not melee. Taking a power sword over pistols doesnt give you extra attacks, though it admittedly makes them more powerful. Taking pistols though does add two ranged attacks, with nasty stats, that can still be used without falling back. It fits in the versatility role better in my mind.

 

For the combi-plasma, you do get less shots fired off but you take penalties for firing both parts of a combi, also the pistols are cheaper than a combi and can still be used in combat. It is certainly cheaper than a combi + power weapon. Raptor champs are too squishy for me to want to add too many points to.

Edited July 25, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Lord Asvaldir]

I don't agree that all lords and sorcerers need jump packs. What you gain in mobility you lose in durability, as a terminator armor lord/sorc is significantly tougher and can still teleport in. Not to mention for narrative reasons not everyone wants to give all lords and sorcs jump packs.

 

That being said a jump pack lord/sorc is a big asset for raptors or warp talons. Probably sorc for the talons for warptime, lord for plasma raptors so you have less of an overcharged plasma risk.

[Sception]

That said, if you've got existing power armored ICs, you can give them the ability to drop in by popping off their backpacks and giving them new ones.  Terminator characters require entirely new models.

[Dardl]

Having all of your raptors and lords have jump packs is only viable if you have an army that is built for very quickly overwhelming the enemy. Otherwise I would go Termie lords. 


It still irks me how not so great biker lords have become. I only finished one a few weeks before 8th came out! 

[Sception]

Yeah, my jugger lord & khornate bike retinue were on the short list for getting painted before 8th hit.  Now, not so much.  I don't think they're bad exactly, but they're not what they were.

[Khornestar]

Maybe the codex will make juggerlords worthwhile with the addition of relics/traits that help out. Of course, those would help any other build just as much, in theory. At least biker lords have the movement to zoom around, and can take a second combi-bolter for extra dakka. Juggerlords... dunno, kind of at a loss. S10 fists, I guess, and they still look damn cool.

 

The lack of invulnerable saves on jump sorcs concerns me, because you can only play the position game so long. Deep strikers could do him in rather quickly.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Juggernut

[Sception]

eh, it's better if he survives longer of course, but in many cases he's done his job after a single warptime or prescience.

 

I do hope we get invulnerable saves for power armored sorcerers in the codex, though.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Apologize for the Thread-o-mancy gents but id like to ask something pertinent and didn't wish to start a new thread. 

 

So judging by the conversations here regarding jump packs and the like; Warp talons for dedicated Melee, and Raptors as a gun-support squad plasma/melta and the like?  

 

I would imagine this will change depending on Legion tactics, strategems and relics we get for various uses in the chaos dex, but I am curious on this currently. id imagine it will stay similar as of the moment. 

 

[Trevak Dal]

If only we had some sniper units we could pick out the commisars.

[bozo69pd]

If only we had some sniper units we could pick out the commisars.

take R&H ratlings or veterans with sniper rifles?

[Paradigm]

I'm going to give a dual plas and combi-plas squad a shot this coming week in a real game. I've been using it in Vassal and it's working really well for me. They're doing significantly better than my melta squads at making their points back.

[Sception]

 

If only we had some sniper units we could pick out the commisars.

take R&H ratlings or veterans with sniper rifles?

 

 

R&H don't get ratlings.  Closest they get is marauders, which are alright, if not quite as good.

[Lord Abaia]

With the new Veterans of the Long War strategem (+1 to wound) a 10 man warptalons unit with character support might become a pretty good AA unit or just good at taking out light vehicles in general.

[Zodd1888]

I'd love if Raptors got a sniper like rule. It'd make Raptors truly something fierce, otherwise I really hope somewhere we get a sniper.

 

Edit: Maybe just a Stratagem in the new dex to combine with Raptors.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Zodd1888

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I'd love if Raptors got a sniper like rule. It'd make Raptors truly something fierce, otherwise I really hope somewhere we get a sniper.

 

Edit: Maybe just a Stratagem in the new dex to combine with Raptors.

 

They already got a special rule. Strange thing is Warp talon don't get it. One would argue a daemonic warp talon to be as scary (or more) as a raptor. 

 

What we need is special rules on Chosen and Possessed and Havoc (eventually Mutilator & Obliterators if GW didnt already give up with those two).

 

Just look at the loyalist counter part of Havoc and Termi who get, Tzeencht know why, special rules for the same price..

[Zodd1888]

Totally fair. I guess I just wish I could get a low-mid range mobile character targeting fire base with Chaos. If any army should have a pistol wielding CC unit that targets characters it should be Chaos.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

You mean like those raptor in Gathering Storm I who tried to rapt Creed and eviscerate him mid air in front of his own men ? 

 

Yep, that's totally chaos. But i guess a chaos player learn quickly not to expend his fluff coolness to be transcribed in rules, nor to wait the same amount of gift as his loyalist (ex)brother. 

[Doom Herald]

It sounds wierd, but part of the appeal of chaos, for me, is that i know im going to mostly get shorted. It forces strategy to be a constant in army building. Plus, we get just enough wierd stuff to take advantage of surprise.

[Khornestar]

You don't need good rules to butcher those loyalists!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No, but they help. . . and the leaks and rumors for Legion Traits so far seem pretty good!  EC Raptors with Always Strike First.  WE Raptors that get more attacks.  AL Raptors that can infiltrate.  Renegade Raptors that can Advance and charge.  I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.

[Brother Aiwass]

No, but they help. . . and the leaks and rumors for Legion Traits so far seem pretty good!  EC Raptors with Always Strike First.  WE Raptors that get more attacks.  AL Raptors that can infiltrate.  Renegade Raptors that can Advance and charge.  I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.

Wait, were are the leaks of the other legion traits? All of this is new to me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Someone tried to pick them out of one of White Dwarf's preview pages using a magnifying glass and posted it before the EC focus went live.  He got that one right, so here's hoping the rest are correct.  I'll find the post for you.

 

Edit:  Here you go, this post: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337245-chaos-codex-release-date-8517/?p=4839037

Edited July 31, 2017 by Iron Father Ferrum