Improving the effectiveness of the Leman Russ

[Chris521]

******* December 18th 2017

on the off chance that anyone comes across this thread, I'm updating it with better looking graphs that take the grinding advance rule into account an add the Annihilator and conqueror cannons.

 

 

 

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Hello, I posted some of this to dakka, but I figured it would be worth posting to a dedicated Guard forum.

 

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Note my posts in this thread were highly edited because of a mistake that was found with my work.  I have removed all of the old images to prevent to spread of bad info.  So if the first page and a half of discussion seem a bit discontinuous, this is the reason. Also my original work utilized stratagems to see how they could improve damage output.  As of right now, nothing I have posted takes them into account.

 

If anyone thinks I made a mistake somewhere, please point it out!  I'm trying to be thorough, but I'm changing numbers or sometimes even code for every case I do, so it's not impossible for something to slip by me.

 

 I know the colors on the plots aren't the best, they were the default and I neglected to change them.  Just make sure you look at a bars positioning relative to the others.  Each set is between dark blue and yellow.  

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Ever Since they released the Battle Cannon Stats, I've been concerned about the strength of the Leman Russ is 8th.  I have seen several posts around the internet looking into the damage output of the Russ' main weapons.  I think the advantage of mine is that it shows wound probabilities along with a table of corresponding average values.  The ultimate goal of this post is not to rule whether or not the Leman Russ will be worth taking this edition (cause honestly plenty of us will be taking them anyway), but to give a clearer idea of what you can expect the main turrets to do against a wide variety of targets

 

 

**New Images:

What I have done is run all seven Russ weapons (plus supercharged plasma) against 6 different target profiles to determine their effectiveness. 

The 6 profiles are:

 

MEQ

TEQ

Primaris Marine

T6 4+ armor (light vehicle) * new *

T7 3+ armor (Dreadnought)

T8 3+ armor (Leman Russ)

 

The first 3 catagories are assumed to have 5 or more model in the squad to provide the Demolisher with its max number of shots.  I think this is a pretty reasonable assumption, particularly at the begining of the game.  Also I have hard coded in wound limits for these categories to prevent overkill from skewing the results.  This is because wounds no longer spill over to other models in 8th edition.

 

For each profile,  I tested a Standard Leman Russ, a Tank Commander,  Leman Russ that re-rolls 1's to hit from tank orders, a Tank commander under the same order (for Pask), and Pask himself.

 

GEQ T3 5+ 1w

 

 

 

 

MEQ T4 3+ 1w

 

 

 

 

Against marines and weaker targets,  one tank stand out from the rest.  The Punisher has ability to reliably get a couple of kills in a round of shooting.  It's more of the same when applying orders.  It's worth noting that the blast russ's are getting a bit better here.  They can certainly mess up a marine, but they just don't have enough shots to make a big impact and their high damage potential counts for nothing.  If you want to take a normal russ while fighting marine or  weaker, the Punisher is the clear winner (big surprise, I know)

 

TEQ (T4 2+ 2w)

 

 

 

 

The clear stand out her is the super charged executioner cannon.  An unsaved would will kill a terminator since it causes a flat 2 damage.   This tank absolutely needs to have the reroll order to keep it alive, so I wouldn't give it to Pask.  It could however be the best tank to run as a wing man to Pask.

 

 Also worth noting that the punisher is at least able so stay relevant here with the other weapons despite having no armor penetration.  That says something about its versatility. 

 

Next best is the Demolisher.  Remember that these results assuming the shooting bonus for having 5+ model in a squad, otherwise, the effectiveness is cut in half.  Do to the fact that they can actually start applying their potential damage, the battle cannon and the exterminator cannon start to perform well with the a tank commander or better

 

 

 

 

Primaris Marine (T4 3+ 2w)

 

 

 

 

These aren't going to be that different than the terminators because their save is just one worse.  Super charged plasma is still the best

 

Light Vehicle (T6 4+)

 

 

 

 

 

Pask

 

 

I added this data set because I wanted to give the Battle Cannon and exterminator their chance to prove themselves worthwhile.  They are more likely to do some damage, but even now that over charged plasma is still burning through.  Worth noting that you can get some value out of the Executioner without supercharging here.

 

Medium Tank (T7 3+)

 

 

 

 

Heavy Tank (T8 3+)

 

 

 

 

The top performers here the the Demolisher Cannon and the Supercharged Executioner Cannon.  The Vanquisher Cannon has the ability to put the wounds on, but even if it hits, its S8 means that it will only wound half the time.  The Battle Cannon has a reasonable chance to do some wounds.  The Punisher and Exterminator may put a couple of wounds on with better bs drivers or rerolls, but their pretty unreliable.

 

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Weapon Summary

 

My favorites:

 

Punisher Cannon:  Probably the best weapon for a normal Leman Russ.  It can reliably kill several weaker models every turn, though still obviously worth taking with a commander or Pask.

 

Executioner Cannon:  This looks like one the more versatile weapons on the list.  The normal shot is at least as good as most of the other weapons when shooting MEQs and below.  Super charging it lets it shred TEQ and Primaris marines as well as being a threat to vehicles.  The catch is that you absolutely have to pair it with tank orders to stop it from rolling a 1.

 

Demolisher Cannon:  I think this is another decent option, in part, due to its ability to basically double its average number of shots when shooting 5 or more guys.  It's one of the heaviest hitters against against armor while still being on par or even better than the other blast weapons against both light and heavy infantry.  Oh and if you ever get a chance to shoot a T5 or below character, say good night.

 

 

 

Mediocre:

 

Battle Cannon:  I think this one is in the middle of the pack.  It generally lags behind the Demolisher but is cheaper.  It will out perform the Demolisher against infantry squads with less than 5 models and for its price against light vehicle targets as shown in the T6 4+ images.  Overall it does mediocre damage all round.

 

Exterminator Cannon: Pretty bad against MEQ and below.  Its one saving grace, the 2 damage, doesn't help it there.  It performs best against 2+ wound targets and light vehicles. This makes it a little more situational  than the Battle Cannon. Just imagining what Heavy 8 would be like though...

 

 

Since the Punisher and Demolisher are short range and I wouldn't put Pask in an Executioner,  I would choose either of these weapons if I was looking for some range.

 

 

 

Still not really seeing the point:

 

Eradicator Cannon:  Not a big believer in this one.  In addition to being 3 points more than the Battle Cannon, its worse against everything except T5 targets in cover.

 

Vanquisher Cannon:  Looks like a big disappointment.  The Genestealer cult version has S9 so there could be a typo in the entry.  This would at least let it hit a little more against heavy targets, but even then, it's damage output is rivaled by the Demolisher, which can also potentially do more than 6 damage as well as being useful against far more potential targets.  Across the board, and usually by a wide margin,  the weapon is the most likely to end up doing nothing.  If I really wanted to use it for some tank hunting, I would give it to Pask to take advantage of its range.  Let's hope Forge World can throws us bone with this one.

 

 

 

*****

 

Pask:  I think my favorite weapons for him are the Punisher Cannon and Demolisher.  Too bad both of these are short range options, but having him on the short range Punisher isn't exactly a new concept.  For more range  I would choose the Exterminator or Battle Cannon.

 

Don't give him an executioner.  There is currently a debate on whether or not Pask can order himself and right now I'm unconvinced that he can.  I would however pair him with another tank commander or two in an Executioner since Pask can order them both every turn.

 

 ****NOTE:  Although we really need an FAQ to be sure, the general opinion right now seems to be that he can infact order himself. If this is the case,  the executioner is an excellent choice.  Here is the data for his damage output with rerolls.

 

 

MEQ

 

TEQ

 

Primaris

 

T6 4+

 

T7 3+

 

T8 3+

 

I would run him and another commander with executioners each with plasma sponsons, a lascannon and heavy stubbers.  This will basically be a unit that can shoot against almost any unit on that battle field at medium range. I'd say that this is the best firepower you can expect from a Leman Russ

 

******

 

I would seriously consider never taking a normal Russ.  It's a 35 point upgrade for bs3+, so maybe we can just consider that the veteran upgrade we always wanted.  (Though it would be pretty nice for them to give us something like a 20 point bs3+ upgrade without the orders.)  Fortunately, thanks to the new detachments,  we can field a lot more HQ units. There is even a detachment that lets you field only HQ's.  This will free up space for artillery and Heavy weapons squads.

 

If I did use a normal Russ it would likely be with a command buddy.  Just theory crafting here, but maybe load up a short range tank like a Punisher or Demolisher with flamers, let it go ahead of the commander (maybe blocking shots), at let it crash into a line.

 

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Stratagems

 

My original post had quite a bit of work with the use of the new stratagems.  As of write now, I don't plan on posting graphs with them.  I can say that the best place to use them was when rolling for the number of shots,  Especially the D6, (though if you happen to be running Pask in a Demolisher, re-rolling a 1 on the d3 could be worth while).  I'm very much hoping that when codex is released, we see some additional stratagems that can be applied to tanks.  The ease with which guard can acquire command points, has the possibility to be one of their biggest strengths this edition.

 

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I guess one big thing that we'll have to figure out is how tanks will work compared to heavy weapons teams, which have gotten much cheaper ( think there may also be a typo, it seems like it should be 8 points per model).  You can potentially get 9+ lascannons for the price of many different Russ configurations.  We are going to need to find a way to make their size and toughness worth their points (if we can do that, maybe we can even find better uses for normal Russ's).  I am curious as to what GW decided to do with our dozer blades.  When they announced that vehicles could go into combat and that some vehicles could have weapons to do more damage, I thought it would be a no brainer to have dozer blades do something there.  The kind went the other way that one by removing them entirely. Maybe the codex will put them back in. But this speculation is starting to go outside of what I'm equipped to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Chris521

[WarriorFish]

Welcome to the B&C Chris, thanks for the write up! I'm really thinking 8th is the era of the trooper, and not just for Guard perhaps. It's a shame to see the iconic Russ reduced in effectiveness so, but if GW is true to their word and reviews things then for an update we should be able to see them improved somehow :)

[Chris521]

*deleted

Edited June 5, 2017 by Chris521

[Chris521]

Welcome to the B&C Chris, thanks for the write up! I'm really thinking 8th is the era of the trooper, and not just for Guard perhaps. It's a shame to see the iconic Russ reduced in effectiveness so, but if GW is true to their word and reviews things then for an update we should be able to see them improved somehow

 

 

Thanks

 

Its simply the way they handled blast weapons.  As annoying as the blast templates were, they helped mitigate the guards poor aim. But now that every single shot has to pass through bs4+, well...

[Gothical]

 

Its simply the way they handled blast weapons.  As annoying as the blast templates were, they helped mitigate the guards poor aim. But now that every single shot has to pass through bs4+, well...

 

 

I'm something of a treadhead so I am really disappointed with what has happened to Guard vehicles, but we'll have to work with what we're given. I think that it is the additional weaponry that is going to be the key to making Russes work, a Lascannon on the hull helps even out some of the wonkiness of the cannon, a pair of Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Stubber gives the Cannon back killing power against infantry whilst two Multi-Meltas will make for a great anti-tank platform (the Strike & Shroud order is really useful with this variant).

 

It is definitely worth considering triple Heavy Flamers thanks to their auto-hit ability, and are pretty solid against MEQ now with the new AP system. Average rolls will see the trio kill 3.5 Marines per turn, with potential for massive damage due to dice spikes (if you roll 3 6s for shots the Heavy Flamers alone will kill 6 Marines, never mind any turret weapons). Might be worth using on the shorter-ranged variants such as the Demolisher or Punisher.

 

I am unsure about the viability of the Plasma Cannon sponsons, 2D3 shots should result in 2 hits, but it is more unreliable weaponry on a platform that already struggles a little due to randomness - and overcharging them is stupid for vehicles.

[Chris521]

I'm actually feeling a bit better about the Executioner after doing these tests.  As long as the re-rolls keep the tank alive it's quite a versatile weapon.  Funnily enough, while I'd never put Pask in it do to his lack of re-rolls, it would continue to be a good buddy for him as it has been for years now.

 

What I would do is run Pask ( not sure which tank, I'll be exploring his options next), with a tank commander executioner.  This would give us some pretty good fire power against a variety of targets.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Chris521

[WarriorFish]

Good stuff, when you're done I'd be really interested in reading your summary of where the tanks sit in 8th :tu:

[Chris521]

Good stuff, when you're done I'd be really interested in reading your summary of where the tanks sit in 8th

I certainly don't mind giving summary once I'm finished, but I do want to put it out there that I'm not extremely experienced with playing 40k, even though I do enjoy running these numbers.  Good insight about comparisons to 7th edition and to 8th edition as whole may be better left to more experienced players.

 

There is something I would like to tack onto what I was saying about the executioner.  The increase in multi wound targets and the the increase in large model wounds has kind of added an additional dimension to the game.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when it come to the Russ, which has all these different load outs, it can kind of force all of these guns into a more specialized purpose.  In a game where we usually have no idea what we are facing, this puts the Russ into a tougher position.

 

This is why I rather liked how the executioner looked.  It seems like it could be a good all a rounder as long as you stop it from blowing itself up.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Chris521

[Jam Master Flex]

I've just played 2 games of 8th edition today against Tau and Space Marines w/Guilliman and can confirm my 2 Executioners alongside Pask cleaned up house against MEQ's.

[Chris521]

*deleted

Edited June 5, 2017 by Chris521

[H311fi5h]

I'm very interested in those Pask numbers to help me decide if he should move into another turret.

I'll be running Pask with two Executioners as the backbone of my army. The biggest question for me which tank and sponson loadout he should be given. My Pask is currently sitting in a Demolisher Turret, but with Tank Hunter and Rending gone the Punisher doesn't look as amazing as it used to. In addition, it might be a good idea to keep him a little bit further back to avoid focus. I was thinking a plain old battle tank with HB sponsons and hull lascannon might be the way to go.

[Withershadow]

From reading the stats but not delving too deep into the math, I expect Executioners and Punishers to be the Russes of choice.  Punisher may be the only choice for standard tanks just due to volume of fire (32 shots with triple heavy bolter and a stubber) mitigating the low accuracy (that gets worse as it gets damaged).

 

Triple heavy flamer sounds appealing until you look up the cost of the weapon. 51 points for three, no thanks.

[Otto von Bludd]

I still feel like we are missing something with the Battle Cannon.  Reece from Frontline Gaming, a very fine player and one of those who play tested for GW as they designed 8th, said in their live stream today that he considers the Battle Cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game.  You can't dismiss his opinion on this weapon.  I think part of the problem is that people are still looking at the weapon with a 7th edition battlefield in mind.  It has been posited that Troops are going to be king this edition and yet from what I have seen in 8th edition batreps and just from looking at the sheer amount of firepower available it looks to me like troops, while definitely much more useful than in 7th, are going to be absolutely murdered if they are out in the open with no heavy support.  If you show up with a ton of troops with no resilient multi-wound heavy hitters I think you will get machine gunned off the board between shooting, incredibly powerful and fast assaults, and battleshock damage.  High threat , toughness, and wound models are going to be necessary to draw fire off your troops.  People will be fielding a lot of these big beasties and our lasguns, heavy bolters, mortars and so forth are not going to scratch them.  Attempting to get into melta range is a death sentence even more so than it was in 7th.  The new Battle Cannon excels against such big targets,  comes on a very durable platform and also maintains utility against hordes.  It's a great weapon because it can effectively engage any target while being a very tough target itself.

 

 

In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition.  Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them.  a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too.  Don't underestimate that 72" range either.  It will be able to engage its target of choice turn 1 from whatever distance you choose while an Executioner is going to be forced hold fire until turn 2 at the earliest, maybe even later depending on who you want to shoot at and where they are on the board.  I really think we need to give the battle cannon and chance on the battlefield before we conclude that it is somehow nerfed. 

 

Edit: As a random example consider an Executioner fighting a LRBT:  if the LRBT deploys far enough away it will probably take the Executioner 2 turns to get into range, assuming it doesn't run into any resistance along the way.  The LRBT using its Battle Cannon alone has a very real chance of killing that Executioner before it can get a single shot off.  It could do it with 1 shot with some decent rolling.  Those good rolls won't be as elusive as you think given that you'll have quite a few re-rolls between command points, auras and orders. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[Chris521]

*deleted

Edited June 5, 2017 by Chris521

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

For those of us strapped for time and maths-impaired ... can you give an executive summary on your findings?

 

Posts like General Steiner's make more sense to me than a bunch of charts and whatnot, I'm just allergic to maths. 

 

Thanks.

[Chris521]

*deleted

Edited June 5, 2017 by Chris521

[Thorakitai]

I still feel like we are missing something with the Battle Cannon. Reece from Frontline Gaming, a very fine player and one of those who play tested for GW as they designed 8th, said in their live stream today that he considers the Battle Cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. You can't dismiss his opinion on this weapon. I think part of the problem is that people are still looking at the weapon with a 7th edition battlefield in mind. It has been posited that Troops are going to be king this edition and yet from what I have seen in 8th edition batreps and just from looking at the sheer amount of firepower available it looks to me like troops, while definitely much more useful than in 7th, are going to be absolutely murdered if they are out in the open with no heavy support. If you show up with a ton of troops with no resilient multi-wound heavy hitters I think you will get machine gunned off the board between shooting, incredibly powerful and fast assaults, and battleshock damage. High threat , toughness, and wound models are going to be necessary to draw fire off your troops. People will be fielding a lot of these big beasties and our lasguns, heavy bolters, mortars and so forth are not going to scratch them. Attempting to get into melta range is a death sentence even more so than it was in 7th. The new Battle Cannon excels against such big targets, comes on a very durable platform and also maintains utility against hordes. It's a great weapon because it can effectively engage any target while being a very tough target itself.

 

 

In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too.

I don't buy the idea of tanks protecting infantry in assault. Remember, if you get charged by even a single grot, you can't shoot for a turn if you don't kill all your enemies, and a Leman Russ isn't going to kill anything in close combat. I'd rather sacrifice 40 points of lasgunners to keep a tank shooting than the other way around. And there are plenty of close combat units that will kill a Russ in one round, but are hilarious overkill against 10 guardsmen, though admittedly that's a pretty low bar.

 

And really, this is the Imperial Guard! Since when have guardsmen not been vaporized by anything and everything? And since when has that been a problem? Just bring more. Now for even less points!

 

I think you are right about the battle cannon being looked at in too much in 7th edition terms, but for the wrong reason. To me, the answer is primaris marines, or more generally the proliferation of multi wound medium and heavy infantry. These are the targets that the battle cannon is decently efficient at taking down, so if they become highly popular (likely) then the battle cannon will be quite useful. It's the new version of the old everyone builds to kill marines issue. For any other target, the battle cannon is so innefficient, not to mention inconsistent, that it will not find favor, in comparison to other weapons, like storm eagle rockets, or even the humble krak missile.

 

On a slightly related note, Yarrick buffs all Astra Militarum units with reroll ones to hit. With the right deployment, this could help with the tank orders issue for non Cadians, not to mention be a huge boon for some artillery.

[Otto von Bludd]

 

I still feel like we are missing something with the Battle Cannon. Reece from Frontline Gaming, a very fine player and one of those who play tested for GW as they designed 8th, said in their live stream today that he considers the Battle Cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. You can't dismiss his opinion on this weapon. I think part of the problem is that people are still looking at the weapon with a 7th edition battlefield in mind. It has been posited that Troops are going to be king this edition and yet from what I have seen in 8th edition batreps and just from looking at the sheer amount of firepower available it looks to me like troops, while definitely much more useful than in 7th, are going to be absolutely murdered if they are out in the open with no heavy support. If you show up with a ton of troops with no resilient multi-wound heavy hitters I think you will get machine gunned off the board between shooting, incredibly powerful and fast assaults, and battleshock damage. High threat , toughness, and wound models are going to be necessary to draw fire off your troops. People will be fielding a lot of these big beasties and our lasguns, heavy bolters, mortars and so forth are not going to scratch them. Attempting to get into melta range is a death sentence even more so than it was in 7th. The new Battle Cannon excels against such big targets, comes on a very durable platform and also maintains utility against hordes. It's a great weapon because it can effectively engage any target while being a very tough target itself.

 

 

In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too.

I don't buy the idea of tanks protecting infantry in assault. Remember, if you get charged by even a single grot, you can't shoot for a turn if you don't kill all your enemies, and a Leman Russ isn't going to kill anything in close combat. I'd rather sacrifice 40 points of lasgunners to keep a tank shooting than the other way around. And there are plenty of close combat units that will kill a Russ in one round, but are hilarious overkill against 10 guardsmen, though admittedly that's a pretty low bar.

 

And really, this is the Imperial Guard! Since when have guardsmen not been vaporized by anything and everything? And since when has that been a problem? Just bring more. Now for even less points!

 

I think you are right about the battle cannon being looked at in too much in 7th edition terms, but for the wrong reason. To me, the answer is primaris marines, or more generally the proliferation of multi wound medium and heavy infantry. These are the targets that the battle cannon is decently efficient at taking down, so if they become highly popular (likely) then the battle cannon will be quite useful. It's the new version of the old everyone builds to kill marines issue. For any other target, the battle cannon is so innefficient, not to mention inconsistent, that it will not find favor, in comparison to other weapons, like storm eagle rockets, or even the humble krak missile.

 

On a slightly related note, Yarrick buffs all Astra Militarum units with reroll ones to hit. With the right deployment, this could help with the tank orders issue for non Cadians, not to mention be a huge boon for some artillery.

 

 

The idea of Tanks protecting against assault does depend on loadout, specifically Heavy flamer Sponsons and possibly a hull mount.  However the Heavy Flamer may just be the perfect companion for the Russ, and perhaps our vehicles in general now.  First, it ignores all to hit penalties, so if you load out your Russ with 3 of them (although I think 2 and a lascannon will be better on the long range variants) you can move and fire all your weapons with no BS penalty.  Your heavy flamers will also ignore the penalty to BS from damage.  Also, thanks to the great movement stats on all our vehicles, they will be able to get into that 8" kill zone much more effectively than infantry.  On top of this, they completely ignore our mediocre BS, auto hit and have a -1 AP.  On top of THIS they over watch with no penalty.  This is one of the key components I think. 

 

Picture this, you have a gunline of infantry, advancing or stationary, with Heavy Flamer equipped tanks out front, facing an assault based army.  They close to the critical distance so that you have 1 more turn before they are charging you.  Rather than bubble wrap your tanks, you advance your Russes to meet the oncoming assault units, getting within 8" of them with your generous movement stat, and open up with up to 3D6 Str 5 AP-1 auto hits as well as the main cannon.  That could very well toast a squad right there as well as induce terrible battle shock, but the magic is yet to come.   Your Russ is now positioned between your infantry and the Assault unit.  If they charge it they immediately face 3D6 auto heavy flamer hits again.  Remember, this enemy squad is already depleted because of the initial toasting.  They may not be willing to even make that charge but what option do they have?  If they don't engage your Russ and eat the overwatch you are going to toast them again.  If they do, your Russ has a great chance of surviving and you will disengage on your turn and then open up with your unscathed infantry.  They are damned if they charge, and damned if they don't. 

 

Keep in mind that if they don't come close you've already won as Guard as our games are most in our favour when we are left alone to shoot, and your triple flamer Russ is still pounding away at long range with its main turret. 

[Chris521]

*deleted

Edited June 5, 2017 by Chris521

[Withershadow]

You can also do this with Harker, he grants re-rolls of 1s to nearby Catachans.

 

I keep trying to find uses for Chimeras, I'm thinking something like 2 infantry squads with grenade launchers or flamers, ministorum priest, commissar, and straken.  Use Chimeras to get them up the table, to block line of sight, soak overwatch and generally provide 9 shots per vehicle.  With FRFSRF, that's 64 lasgun shots + 2D6 launcher/flamer shots + 2D6 frag grenade shots (or 2 plasma pistols if you opted for that), plus whatever guns the characters have.  Everyone gets +2 attacks in melee, so just the guardsmen grunts are dropping 54 attacks between the two units.  Then you swing with 5 power weapons.  Not quite the guard blobs of 5th edition, but seems promising.

[Withershadow]

The idea of Tanks protecting against assault does depend on loadout, specifically Heavy flamer Sponsons and possibly a hull mount.  However the Heavy Flamer may just be the perfect companion for the Russ, and perhaps our vehicles in general now.  First, it ignores all to hit penalties, so if you load out your Russ with 3 of them (although I think 2 and a lascannon will be better on the long range variants) you can move and fire all your weapons with no BS penalty.  Your heavy flamers will also ignore the penalty to BS from damage.  Also, thanks to the great movement stats on all our vehicles, they will be able to get into that 8" kill zone much more effectively than infantry.  On top of this, they completely ignore our mediocre BS, auto hit and have a -1 AP.  On top of THIS they over watch with no penalty.  This is one of the key components I think.

Heavy flamers are way too friggin' expensive.  By the time you shoot a heavy flamer, you'll have had an opportunity to shoot a heavy bolter 2-3 times.  Even with their crappy BS, that's still more hits than the D6 from the heavy flamer.  At less than half the price. 

[Otto von Bludd]

 

The idea of Tanks protecting against assault does depend on loadout, specifically Heavy flamer Sponsons and possibly a hull mount.  However the Heavy Flamer may just be the perfect companion for the Russ, and perhaps our vehicles in general now.  First, it ignores all to hit penalties, so if you load out your Russ with 3 of them (although I think 2 and a lascannon will be better on the long range variants) you can move and fire all your weapons with no BS penalty.  Your heavy flamers will also ignore the penalty to BS from damage.  Also, thanks to the great movement stats on all our vehicles, they will be able to get into that 8" kill zone much more effectively than infantry.  On top of this, they completely ignore our mediocre BS, auto hit and have a -1 AP.  On top of THIS they over watch with no penalty.  This is one of the key components I think.

Heavy flamers are way too friggin' expensive.  By the time you shoot a heavy flamer, you'll have had an opportunity to shoot a heavy bolter 2-3 times.  Even with their crappy BS, that's still more hits than the D6 from the heavy flamer.  At less than half the price. 

 

 

3 Rounds of 1 Heavy Bolter Shooting at 4+BS: 4.5 hits

Heavy Flamer in 1 rounds of shooting is 3 hits and is unaffected by movement, over watch penalty or damage.

 

If your heavy flamer shoots twice in the game it has contributed about as much as you heavy bolter will over the course of 6 turns of shooting at full BS, and you probably won't be shooting at full BS since you will be moving  and suffering damage.  Your heavy bolter will be hitting on 5s most of the game (due to movement) and 6s once you are damaged.  The Flamers will keep roasting at full power until your Russ dies.  I think they will be well worth the price of admission. 

 

Edit: As for Chimeras, dual heavy flamers all day! Turn that otherwise harmless transport into a close assault terror, you're going to be getting close anyway! The Chimera is another perfect platform for the HF now. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[Strength 10]

Frankie and Reese from Frontline Gaming (major 3rd party playtesters for 8th) are free of their embargo and spent almost 6 hours talking about the new edition and going through all the different factions on twitch.

Both of them said IG / AM were in the top 5 armies and among the most improved.

I asked a question about Leman Russes and Reese said he goes for Punishers or Eradicators with 3 heavy flamers for going forward or a Battlecannon and 3 Heavy Bolters for sitting back.

They start talking about IG/AM specifically at 2 hours 38 mins.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149230276

[Chris521]

I'm too tired to watch right now but the 5 minutes I watched consisted of nothing except them flipping pages, naming every unit and saying its really good. Though thry are claiming that Pask can order himself.  Not sure if they read it carefully or if that is their interpretation.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Chris521

[HenricusTyranicus]

Frankie and Reese from Frontline Gaming (major 3rd party playtesters for 8th) are free of their embargo and spent almost 6 hours talking about the new edition and going through all the different factions on twitch.

 

Both of them said IG / AM were in the top 5 armies and among the most improved.

 

I asked a question about Leman Russes and Reese said he goes for Punishers or Eradicators with 3 heavy flamers for going forward or a Battlecannon and 3 Heavy Bolters for sitting back.

 

They start talking about IG/AM specifically at 2 hours 38 mins.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149230276

Interesting. They claim that Pask can order himself around. I guess he does have all the keywords to do so.