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Dreadnoughts - SM or GK?


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#1
Gentlemanloser

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It's occured to me that I can run a pure Dreadnought Army now, and I can probably get my hands on enough Dreads (especially if I finally finish my FW GK Dread...) to do so.

 

Some mechanical Questions.

 

Which type of Dreads to run, Grey Knights, or vanilla Space Maine Dreads.

 

Both have the same entry in the Index, but GK Dreads cost more.

 

Basic configuration, SM Dread are 133 points.  Venerable versions are 153.

 

The Grey Knights version cost 17 points for for a Standard Dread (150) and 20 point more for Venerable (173).

 

For this increase In points they gain the Psyker keyword, and both the Rites of Banishment and Demon Hunter abilities.

 

Is this worth it?

 

Especially when there's no Character buff bubbles going on in the Army at all.

 

In order to run a pure Dreadnought list, I need a Dreadnought HQ.  There's two options I've come across (I could have missed some!)

 

1: Blood Angel Librarian Dreadnought (192).  This is nice if running GK Dreads as it keeps the Psyker theme.

 

2: Bjorn the Fell Handed (248).  Quite expensive, as his Wargear is not included...

 

 

I'd be quite Tempted to run a Blood Angel Librarian Dreadnought as my HQ, with GK Dreads to keep the all Psyker feel.

 

 

The end times are here, and Titan has awoken all the valiant few Brothers encased in Dreadnoughts...

 

:)


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#2
GreyCrow

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So, if the GK Dreadnought has extra stuff, then it's not the same entry :P

 

You decide whether it's worth it. Do they have access to Smite? I'd pay 17 points just for this TBH.


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#3
Segismundo

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Have you considered techmarines?



#4
Gentlemanloser

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It is actually the exact same Index entry.  Same page. msn-wink.gif

 

Is 17/20 points worth a Smite?  Maybe.

 

Have you considered techmarines?

 

Not a Dread. ;)


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 04 June 2017 - 03:09 PM.

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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#5
Captain Coolpants

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Could wait for FW to see the updated rules for our specific nought

#6
Seizeman

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It depends on how you want to build the whole army. In your case, with a full army of dreads, I assume you are going to have most dreads with a close combat weapon and a ranged one, and advance while shooting hoping they will last enough to reach the enemy lines. I consider the smite is worth taking if you can use it at least 3 times on a MEQ or higher. So in most cases it will not be worth it if you take into account the posibility of them being destroyed before using it or being tarpitted by cheap troops or vehicles. For the same cost you can upgrade your dread to a venerable which is a lot more efficient.

 

In regular lists, I can't see a use for it, as the rest of your army is already very good in combat and you want your dreadnoughts for some support heavy fire. It should be worth if you are using a close combat oriented dreadnought in a stormraven because you will be in range first turn.


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#7
Happy-inquisitor

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Gate of Infinity and Hammerhand will work on a GK Dread - Gate is pretty fantastic on a combat Dread IMO.



#8
Gentlemanloser

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In a full dread list i'll not have anyone able to take gate.

Or hammerhand.

GK dreads only get Smite.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#9
Seizeman

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Using gate on him is great, but if you send it by itself he's not going to be very effective. You can send him at the same time your deep striking units arrive but the unit that send the dread will have to stay behind, so it depends on your composition.

 

With the Stormraven you can deploy him and the unit inside and strike alongside your deep striking troops for a nice alpha strike without leaving anyone behind, and the raven itself can kill or cripple a problematic unit.

 

I see non-shooty dreads as a unit to walk alongside a midrange foot-slogging army, as they can advance while shooting and support and protect your infantry. In general, I think it will be very important to keep your army together in this edition, as some units can do nothing against MC and vehicles and some are useless against infantry, so having everyone close allows you to respond to an attack with the appropiate unit and not get countered.



#10
Valerian

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 In general, I think it will be very important to keep your army together in this edition, as some units can do nothing against MC and vehicles and some are useless against infantry, so having everyone close allows you to respond to an attack with the appropiate unit and not get countered.

 

Of course, the Maelstrom of War tactical objectives are going to complicate that a bit, especially when they force you to split your army up to go in three or more directions at the same time.



#11
Holier Than Thou

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I think a lot of people seem to be missing that you are looking for a pure Dreadnought army with no other types of unit. I don't think Smite is worth it as it would be the Grey Knights version which is only 12" range doing a maximum of 1 Mortal Wound per cast. Save the points and make as many Venerable as you can. 2+ to hit will be a lot more useful than Smite-Lite.
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#12
Gentlemanloser

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What's the thoughts on contemptors? Worth it or just not as good as venerables?

I was so tempted to get the custodian achilies, and paint it grey to counts as
Although the guys prefer the sword and shield version, to me the achilies would be an easier counts as, with a nemesis halberd.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#13
jeffersonian000

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Gilliman seems to be the best Contemptor Dread in the game, at the moment. And his box set comes with Voldus. That's double plus good!

SJ

Edited by jeffersonian000, 19 June 2017 - 04:05 PM.

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#14
Rurik the blessed

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it's not fluffy for GK to have a full dread army... just go full vanilla

#15
Gentlemanloser

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Why not? They have enough dreads.

And it's the end times. Largest warp rift ever. Cadia gone.

Why would titan not wake all its dreadnoughts?
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#16
Aethernitas

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it's not fluffy for GK to have a full dread army... just go full vanilla

 

Most of the vocal members here don't care much about fluff if you haven't noticed yet msn-wink.gif

The FW Astartes Index offers a quite competitive and fluffy alternative - the Doomglaive Pattern Dreadnought. It's pretty much a psychic venerable slightly worse rifledread (only 6 shots, half range) but with an actual melee weapon (S+3, AP3, D1d6) for only 10 more points.


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#17
Gentlemanloser

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The FW 8th ed book out yet?

 

I like the sounds of the Doomglaive!!

 

I wonder if I could use a grey Achillus for it?


QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#18
Aethernitas

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The FW 8th ed book out yet?

 

I like the sounds of the Doomglaive!!

 

I wonder if I could use a grey Achillus for it?

I got the epub.

THe Achillus has a lot of Custodes iconography but most opponents shouldn't have any problem proxying it as a Doomglaive Dread. btw if it wasn't clear - the Doomglaive also has the "you ignore each wound on a roll of 6" ability the vanilla venerable has. Overall it looks pretty damn strong, especially when delivered by a Stormraven.


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#19
Everon

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Does the doomglaive get more attacks than the normal? And it's just d6 damage? Funny though, his pyscannon is 6 shots, all others are 4, unless it was turned into a heavy pyscannon?

Regardless, goi him right up the middle, that's gonna be a making some people reconsider

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#20
Waking Dreamer

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Does the doomglaive get more attacks than the normal? And it's just d6 damage? Funny though, his pyscannon is 6 shots, all others are 4, unless it was turned into a heavy pyscannon?

Regardless, goi him right up the middle, that's gonna be a making some people reconsider

 

It has the normal amount of attacks, and his loadout is actually a heavy psycannon so that's why. An interesting thing of note he actually knows a Sanctic discipline on top of smite, so he is the most Grey Knight of the dreadnoughts you could get. 



#21
Gentlemanloser

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Sweet. GoI in an all Dread army!
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#22
Rurik the blessed

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Does the doomglaive get more attacks than the normal? And it's just d6 damage? Funny though, his pyscannon is 6 shots, all others are 4, unless it was turned into a heavy pyscannon?

Regardless, goi him right up the middle, that's gonna be a making some people reconsider

 

It has the normal amount of attacks, and his loadout is actually a heavy psycannon so that's why. An interesting thing of note he actually knows a Sanctic discipline on top of smite, so he is the most Grey Knight of the dreadnoughts you could get. 

 

 

 

oh please... tell us more!

 

what about his doomglaive?.

 

and redeemer has incinerators plus a heavy psycannon?.

 

tell us everything (we have at least 3 units there).


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#23
Waking Dreamer

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what about his doomglaive?.

 

The doomglaive was already mentioned 6 posts up above yours.The redeemer is what you can probably guesstimate from it's previous edition's twin-link psycannons...now becoming twin psycannons (the same for the Razorback).

 

It still has the Flamestorm cannon stats/load out you can find from the Imperium 1 Index. It also has Psyk-out Assault Launchers it can use at the end of a charge which works similarly (but not exactly) to psy-out grenades to cause mortal wounds. I don't know how specifically I can go into it though.


Edited by Waking Dreamer, 20 June 2017 - 05:06 PM.


#24
Gentlemanloser

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The Doomglaive looks amazing.

 

Half a dozen points more than a GK Venerable Dreadnought, but for that it gets a Sanctic Power, which is massive.

 

Some comparison to Imperial 1 options;

 

 

Doomglaive: 168 points

 

Grey Knight Venerable Dreadnought (Assault Cannon/DCCW): 173

 

Grey Knight Venerable Dreadnought (Dual Twin Auto): 176

 

Nemesis DreadKnight (Heavy Psycannon, Doomfist, Greatsword): 195

 

 

The Doomglaive is cheaper and has a slightly better gun than the closest equivalent (Assault Cannon/DCCW), and a, comparable CC weapon.  The normal DCCW has more Strength, but half the Damage of the Doomglaive.

 

And while the Doomglaive (as above) doesn't quite have the same shooting as a normal Rifleman (half range, 2 less shots), it is slightly cheaper, has a Storm Bolter for more 24" shooting, a CC weapon and a Sanctic Power.

 

The NDK is the most expensive option, with the same shooting weapon (sans Strom Bolter), a CC Weapon that's only one point of Strength better.  Lower Toughness, better Save (and Invulnerable), more wounds.  But worse WS/BS, a degradation chart and no FnP.

 

For nearly 30 points more, I don't really feel the NDK.  40 points more if you want to Reserve and Deep Strike it first turn.

 

 

I think the Doomgliave has now become my firm favourite!


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QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#25
Reclusiarch Darius

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Might consider a Doomglaive once I get my hands on the book. It looks pretty strong. 

 

S10 is a significant jump up though don't forget, there is a lot of T5 around these days. Wounding on 2's is very handy. So I think Dreadknights still have their place, they're just not automatically better than all other choices. 

 

Having a better default save and invul is a big deal. Not to mention the gulf between 8 wounds and 12 is huge. If you're getting smashed so hard that the degradation stats kick in, its probably gonna die soon anyway. Unyielding Ancient is only on a 6, its not that reliable in my experience (I've been running two Venerables lately). 

 

Shunt move is a big deal, its a free 'Gate' that isn't limited in Matched Play. You can also potentially charge off it, just like 'Gate', and it doesn't carry the risk of failing/Perils. 

 

I'm thinking my next list will be a 2x Venerable fire support, 1x Doomglaive carried by a Raven, 2x Dreadknights. 


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