This shall be an in-depth thread in which we put forward a modular thesis based on rigorously applied rationale and existing historical precedent married to educated supposition where no historical precedent is found.
Yes, this is a wish-listing thread.
I'm organizing a little get-together for my HH group, albeit we've decided to go heretical and covert the Horus Heresy legion list into a usable format for 8th edition. Everything is dandy so far; converting weapon and character stats (20 wound Spartans ) is simple, given both follow rigorous ratios when comparing their 7th edition stats to 8th edition.
The hard part is figuring out the non-quantitative bits; which units get what special rules is one thing, but what is completely out of our grasp is coming up with 8th edition versions of Legiones Astartes rules. Many of the 7th edition LA rules were presented in such a creative way that a lot of times I was delighted in how they conveyed complex attributes through quite simple means, so I thought reaching out and jotting down as many ideas as possible would be a wonderful exercise in itself.
How will Flawless Execution be represented without an Initiative stat? How will Edge of the Spear work with guaranteed reserves? Since I don't usually approve of home brew, I'd also like to back this up with as much peer-review as possible. Please do make sure to comment on anything you find particularly elegant or clumsy.
Let's get the creative juices flowing, I am sure the FW team will be watching us, as they always do, for nuggets of inspirations
Bonus Round: Rites of War, both general and legion specific.
Bonus Bonus Round: Legion Unique Command Points & Abilities.
Dark Angels: (jaxom)
Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)
Bring Them Down: The Dark Angels excel at felling monstrous creatures and foul xenos the likes of which could not be imagined. Units with this rule gain +1 Damage when they roll a 6+ To Hit and automatically pass Morale checks when engaged with a unit with the Monster keyword.
(2CP) Legion of Unity: No one knows exactly what happened to the Thunder Warriors, just that they were gone and the First Legion stood in their place. Activate this before a unit makes it's attacks. The unit's attacks deal an additional point of Damage on a To Wound roll of 6.
(2CP) Knights of the Order : The martial practices of the Dark Angels are informed by the millenia old traditions of Caliban. Choose a unit during the Combat phase. It improves its Weapon Skill by 1.
Hexagrammaton Stratagem - The Dark Angels have an additional stratagem, based on the 'wing aura assigned to the army's Warlord character:
- Deathwing - (3CP) Pride of the Firstborn: Activate at any time. Your force ignores Battleshock tests of all kind for the entire battleround.
- Ravenwing - (3CP) No Escape: One Jetbike, Outrider, Speeder or <flyer> in your Reinforcement pool may enter the game from your opponent's table edge.
- Firewing - (2CP) Turbis Purgation-Rounds: One unit's ranged attacks gains 'Deflagrate' for this Battleround.
- Stormwing - (3CP) Breaching Counter-Tactics: Activate in-place of Overwatch; the Dark Angel unit moves into base contact and counts as having successfully completed a charge.
- Dreadwing - (2CP) Acid Rounds: Activate before a unit with "bolt" weapons fires; said weapons roll a D6 to decide the weapons' AP value. On a roll of a 5 or 6 the ammunition misfires; the unit makes its attacks at an AP of -4 but it not make shooting attacks at all next Battleround.
- Ironwing - (2CP) Ancient Animus: Pick a Vehicle; Depending on the phase in which you've activate this Stratagem, you may immediately repeat the previous action with the Vehicle. It may not be used at all next Battleround as the Vehicle's crew reset systems to regain control.
Emperor's Children: (Kais Klip)
Legiones Astartes (Emperor's Children)
Exemplars of War: The Emperor's Children place an importance on speed and the precision of maneuver above all else in war. All units with this rule roll 2 dice and choose the highest when making an Advance. When choosing a unit to fight in close combat, an additional character with this rule may be chosen alongside a chosen unit.
Martial Pride: The Legion's pride was a tangible thing, and it's officers were quick to defend it in blood. Some whispered it was more the prestige of their rank that they were so eager to guardr. All characters with this rule must perform a Heroic Intervention if they are able to. When a character with this rule falls in close combat, all units with this rule within 3" are at -1 Leadership for that Battle Round.
(1CP) Palatine Eagles: Activate when an enemy unit falls back from any unit with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords; the enemy unit immediately suffers D6 Mortal Wounds.
(1CP) Exemplary Marksmanship: One unit with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords improves its Ballistic Skill by 1 for this turn.
(3CP) Flawless Execution: A single unit with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords may either Advance the full distance or charge the full distance.
Rite of War: The Maru Skara
Open Blade: In the first player turn, all units with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords may declare a charge after advancing.
Hidden Blade: Select 1-3 Elite/Fast Attack units. These units are not destroyed if they are still in the reinforcement pool by 3rd Battle Round, instead being destroyed if they are not deployed by the 4th Battle round.
Legiones Astartes (Iron Warriors)
Wrack and Ruin: Units with this rule ignore shooting casualties for the purposes of Battleshock tests. All units with this rule may use an additional grenade or melta bomb during the shooting and/or close combat phase.
The Bitter End: The Legion's calling card was eternally breaking the most unassailable fortresses and unfavorable positions, as much as it was dying for little more than glorified ditch-works in holding actions that would never be noted in the histories of the Great Crusade. An Iron Warrior player always forfeits the decision to choose deployment position, but for all other purposes follows normal pre-game procedure.
Warsmith: An optional upgrade for an Iron Warriors Praetor. The Warsmith must be Warlord, and awards the opponent 1 VP if the Warsmith is slain. All units within 3" of a Warsmith half the models removed as a result of a Battleshock test, rounding down.
(2CP) Escalade: Use this stratagem when counting objectives scored, but before any random values are revealed. As long as there is an Iron Warrior unit within 3" of an objective within the opponent's deployment zone, enemy units also within 3" of an objective are ignored for the purposes of contesting objectives.
(2CP) Weapons Up: One unit uses their unmodified Ballistic Skill for the purposes of Overwatch.
(3CP) Fury of the IVth Legion: Provided they haven't moved this Battle Round, one unit may shoot an additional time during any action. If used in conjunction with Fury of the Legion, the unit fires a total of 6 times within Rapid Fire range.
Legiones Astartes (White Scars)
Swift Action: Any unit with this rule that moves the maximum distance available to it (before Advancing), re-roll To Wounds roll of 1 for all attacks as well as impose a -1 To Hit modifier on enemy units rolling ranged hits against it.
Eye of the Storm: A White Scar warlord add's +1 to the roll to determine turn order or an attempt to Steal the Initiative.
Born in the Saddle: White Scar Jetbike or Outrider units ignore Dangerous Terrain.
To Laugh In Death's Face: Each Dreadnought & Heavy Support unit in your force removes 1 Command Point. Each Fast Attack unit gives an additional 1 Command Point. Doesn't apply in Zone Mortalis Missions.
(2CP) Jink: Select a unit; enemy units shooting at that unit suffer a penalty of -1 to hit.
(2CP) Withdraw, Then Return: Activate after falling back with a unit; that unit may either double its movement, or charge after falling back.
(3CP) The Zao: Activate at the beginning of your turn; your entire force may advance its maximum as well as charge after advancing.
Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - Unique Legion Wargear: Solarite Gauntlet: S x2 AP -4, No penalties to hit.
Proposition 2 (jaxom)
Disciplined Fire: Units with this special rule may add +1 to BS when using boltguns, bolt pistols, heavy bolters and quad heavy bolters, and when firing the bolter component of a combi-weapon. Heavy Support Squads with this rule also gain +1 Strength with Ranged weapons against units with the Vehicle keyword.
Blood and Honor: An Infantry Character model with this rule must always engage (not sure how to word this in rules terms) enemy Infantry Character models when possible and may re-roll failed To Hit rolls against enemy units with the Character keyword.
Unshakeable Defence: Units with this rule ignore negative penalties to Leadership when they are in cover.
The Bitter End: Units with this rule may ignore a Wound on a 6+ when within 3" of an objective. Seems to miss the point of TBE: it being a drawback. Although why it has to be the particular 6 turn drawback, I don't know. A minus is needed though.
Night Lords: (to Aeternas, for following)
Legiones Astartes (Night Lords)
A Talent for Murder: If Night Lords models outnumber enemy infantry in an assault, all participating models get a +1 bonus to their To Hit and To Wound rolls. Bulky and Very Bulky models count as single models.
Nostraman Blood: One additional model is removed during a failed Battleshock check.
Preysight: All models in the force ignore the negative effects of Night Fighting.
From the Shadows: Enemy units shooting at Night Lord units on the first turn of the game suffer -1 To Hit in addition to any other modifiers.
Seeds of Dissent: If the force Warlord is slain, all Night Lord units make an immediate Battleshock test at -2 LD.
(2CP) The Scream: Enemy units use the lowest Leadership value present within the Unit for the purposes of Battleshock for the remainder of this Battleround, and ignore the presence of any Characters within proximity for the purposes of Battleshock tests for the remainder of this Battleround.
(2CP) Into the Night: Night Lord units may double their Movement distance when Falling Back at the expense of all other Actions during this Round.
(3CP) In Midnight Clad: Activate before setting up units and spend an additional [X]CP. The first [X] Battlerounds are under Night Fighting conditions.
Proposition 1 (Charlo) -
Encarmine Fury: they keep the +1 to wound rolls in combat (which is sweet as it means a lot more in 8th ed rules).
Without Remorse, Without Relent: Must Pile-in where possible, potentially extra pile in moves - maybe something about not voluntarily falling back under 50% strength (represents their fight to the last man style).
Host of Angels: Can't take more vehicles units than units with the Legiones Astartes rule.
Rites of War:
Day of Revelation:
Cometh the Host: Jump infantry ignore the 50% reserve restriction for matched play, can arrive in your first movephase.
With Fire & Thunder: All units that arrived using the above gain the benefits of cover even in the open. Potentially extend it to an additional +1 if already in cover?!
The Opening of the Seal: Enemy units that suffer casualties as a result of shooting attacks frm any Jump Infantry unit that arrived from play via Cometh the Host suffer a -1 penalty to their Ld until the end of your player turn.
The Judgement of Angels: LA:BA Jump Infantry always strike first in a turn that they charge regardless of any abilities the enemy may have that prevent this. Probably only going to be a problem against EC/ Slaanesh.
By Honour Bound: Your characters must always make a Heroic Intervention if they are able (3" pile in if a combat is going on nearby)
Then all the restrictions are the same in 8th.
Day of Sorrow:
Resolute Defense: LA:BS cannot have their movement value negatively altered in anyway. When within 3" of an Objective they suffer no negative modifiers to Ld.
Aura of Wrath: Enemy units within 1" of units with LA:BA suffer a -1 penalty to their Ld
By Blood Sworn: LA:BA units dropped to 50% original strength ignore wounds on a 5+.
To the Bitter Dregs: LA:BA units at 50% or less original strength can no longer hold objectives, but are immune to the effects of battleshock. Unsure if this would be too OP, I think not as you can't score anymore but just become a sacrificial squad aiming to take people down with you and losing those last couple guys to battleshock seems senseless with this.
Bloody Handed: Your characters must always make a Heroic Intervention if they are able (3" pile in if a combat is going on nearby) and LA:BA must pile into an enemy unit after combat has finished if possible.
Proposition 2 (jaxom)
Encarmine Fury: Units with this rule have +1 To Wound when using a Melee weapon.
Without Remorse, Without Relent: Models with this special rule must end their Charge movement as close to the declared target as possible and cannot choose to Flee.
Host of Angels: A detachment containing units with this rule cannot have more units with the Vehicle keyword than the Infantry keyword; dedicated transports do not count towards this. This may effect which detachments can include units with this rule.
Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: Inviolate Armour: Reduce AP of all ranged weapons by 1.
Proposition 2 (jaxom)
Inviolate Armor: [seconds Proposition 1]
Stand and Fight: Units with this rule cannot Advance if an enemy unit is within range of its Ranged weapons at beginning of the Movement phase if the unit failed a Morale check in the previous Morale phase.
Rigid Tactics: A detachment containing units with this rule must have more Infantry and non-Flyer Vehicle units with this rule than other units with this rule. Certain detachments and Rites of War are unavailable to units with this rule because of this.
World Eaters: (Kais Klip)
Legiones Astartes (World Eaters)
Incarnate Violence: All learned quickly that the Legion's wrath was not a thing to be tested, nor indeed even witnessed. Units with this rule may re-roll 1's To-Wound on the turn they charge. Characters with this rule gain improve their Weapon Skill by +1 when fighting an enemy Character.
Bloodlust: Once the Legion's wrath was truly unleashed, it was more often than not completely unstoppable, including by its own command. When units with this rule choose to Advance, they must do so towards the closest enemy unit. Units with this rule may roll a D6 before making a battleshock test while in close combat. On a 4+, the unit does not take the battleshock test, and instead all models make an additional attack.
Blood Madness: Units with this rule make an additional attack when charging. Models removed as part of a battleshock test may immediately make an additional attack before being removed. This unit must always advance towards the closest enemy unit, and if a unit with this rule finds itself within 12" of an enemy unit and is able to charge, it must attempt to do so.
(2CP) Lessons of Nuceria: Activate after an opponent spends CP to activate a Command Ability. It's effects are ignored.
(1CP) The Bloody Twelth: One unit or character may make an additional close combat attack.
(2CP) The Crimson Path: Activate when a charging unit loses a model or models to Overwatch. They get to make all their attacks before being removed.
Exhortations of Butchery: Any non-character model in a unit with the <Legion> and <World Eaters> keywords within 3" of an Apothecary with the <Legion> and <World Eaters> keywords, may make an additional close combat attack. Any model that does so must roll a D6, suffering a Mortal Wound on a 1.
Additional Proposed Legion Special Unit:
Legion Decimatus (Consul Upgrade)
Discipline Staff (Power Maul)
Frag and Krak Grenades
Enforcer: The Decimatus was a rank whose presence was evident foremost among the VIth and XIIth Legions, but nonetheless present in all the Legions. The Decimatus was more often than not a role assigned to problematically belligerent legionaries who did not posses the initiative and self-reliance of their Moritat counterparts. These individuals were assigned to supplementary periodical Hypno-Induction, a process that was rumored to continue beneath their ever-present helms, and were relied upon by Legion Command to reign in problematic legionaries retarding the battle plan. Commonly replaced by the more "Crusade ideal conclusive" Chaplains of the latter years of the Great Crusade, many of the new-found Chaplains nevertheless kept the old equipment of their rank, and indeed their temperament.
Disciplinary Authority: At the beginning of a Battle Round, all Units within 3" of a Decimatus may choose to ignore their Legiones Astartes (Legion) special rules. If they choose do so, they automatically suffer a single Mortal Wound. Should a unit within 3" of a Decimatus fail a Battleshock test, it ignores the result rolled and instead suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.
Proposition 1 (jaxom)
Certainty and Resolve: Units with this rule count as taking one less casualty when taking a Morale check. Ultramarine excel at re-gaining control, i.e. regrouping, rather than maintaining... discipline. At least 7th ed FW seemed to think so. And yet, your method of representing this seems to be the most elegant available.
Rigid Chain of Command: If a unit containing this rule is in a detachment that has lost all itsHQ units then their opponent gains +1 Victory Point. If the army's general is slain then all units with this rule must make a Morale check in the Morale phase with a penalty to Leadership equal to the number of HQ units in the detachment that have been slain (including the general).
Proposition 1 (jaxom)
Remorseless: Units with this rule ignore negative penalties to Leadership from Psychic powers and Ranged weapons. Love the first part, but ignoring ranged morale steps on the IW toes a little bit. We need a more creative way to differentiate the two.
Sons of Barbarus: Units with this rule can re-roll the number of Mortal Wounds caused by terrain features.
Intractable: Units with this rule can only Consolidate 2".
Proposition 2 (Kais Klip)
Remorseless: [see above]
Sons of Barbarus: [see above], LA: Death Guard remove one unit of Damage from any wounds that deal more than one damage.
Proposition Great Work of jgcoine011
- All TS can re-roll FAILED psychic powers
- If any unit suffers a perils then all LA:TS take an immediate moral check
- ROW are:
- Crimson King
Roll 3D6 for psychic tests and MUST pick 2 highest, any double 1s or 6s still perils regardless (so if you roll a 1,1 and 5 you still perils even though you use the 5 and 1 which is bad for TS)
Rest Stays the same
- Axis of Dissolution
No change needed
- Cults are:
- 6+ Invun or +1 to any invun (max 3++)
- Any psykers know Teleportation power (6+ to cast, unit can immediatly move 12", can not charge afterwards)
- +1 to movment, assault, advance and consolidation rolls
- Any psykers know choppy choppy power (6+ to cast, unit always strikes 1st in combat, +3 Strength)
- Re-roll 1's to hit in shooting if didnt move
- Any psyker knows the Shoot Shooty power (6+ to cast, re-roll all failed to hit rolls)
- All enemy models in base contact take a S4 hit
- Any psyker knows molten beam power (6+ to cast, 12" Melta gun with beam effect)
- Re-roll faild moral tests
- All psykers know terrify power (6+ to cast, each wound caused by this unit is doubled for the purpose of moral tests)
Special Wargear is
- Aether fire cannon - 10 point plasma cannon upgrade that makes any roll of a 6 to wound a mortal wound
- Asphyx shells - re-roll to wound with bolters, combi-bolters and bolt pistols
- Sehkmet Terminatos - Basically everything as is, but they know Crush Power (6+ to cast, S 2D6, AP -4, D D6, Assault 1, If the strength is 11 or 12 then its mortal wounds and the damage is automatically a 6)
- Occult blades - Again stats are the standard marine equivalent, but 1-3 get +1A, 4-5 get WS 2+, 6-9 get to re-roll to hit in combat
- Osirion Dread - Contemptor dread stats but its force weapon does mortal wounds on a 6+ to wound and it knows psychic shriek power (3D6 - enemy Ld, AP-4)
- Interssion Cabal - Stats and equipment as is but knows the killy killy power instead (cast on a 6+, all shooting attacks wound on a 4+ and are moral wounds)
- Arhimans command Squad - WS2+, BS2+ Sv2+ and 2 Wounds (3 on the standard). Knows the Lucky :cusss Power (6+ Re-roll all failed saves)
- Can cast 3 powers a turn
- Knows 3 powers:
6+ to cast, units within 6" gets a 4+ invun
6+ to cast, all attacks from units within 6" ignore Armour saves on a 6+ to wound
6+ to cast, all units within 6" overwatch at full BS
- Amon just stays the same..never used him so dont really know what he does
- -1 to hit him and all units within 6"
- Knows 5 Powers, can cast 4 a turn
- 6+ to cast, +3A and S
- 6+ to cast, all enemy units within 9" take 2D6 S4 AP-1 hits (I am thinking of a sunburst here)
- 6+ to cast, 18" S6 AP-4, D D3 Assault 3 hits, for each model killed, magnus regains a wound
- 6+ to cast, 18" range, all enemy units within 2D6" take 2D6 S3 AP- D1 hits, any unit that suffers 1 or more wounds is at -1BS and WS and has its movment halfed until the next turn ( i am thinking of a sandstorm for this power)
- 6+ to cast, chose an enemy unit and move it anywhere within 4D6". It then takes D3 S10 AP-4 hits or D6 if the unit contains 10 or more models (for this i am thinking he just lifts up a unit with his mind and then drops it)
- All powers ignore cover saves
- Can increase the casting requirment by 2 to double the range and add 2D6 to the strength...if strength is above 10 then any wounds are mortal wounds
- Can re-roll all failed casting attempts
- His force blade is +2S, AP-5 with D3 wounds
- His gun is 18" S8, AP-4, Assault D3, with any wound on a 6+ doing a mortal wound
- His Stats would be M8, WS2+, BS2+ S7, T6, W8, A4, Ld10, Sv2+/4++
Sons of Horus:
Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: Edge of the Spear: Your Reserves can be deployed up to 6" away from the enemy, instead of 9". (Meh)
(You could justify this with the XVIth reputation for being "eye to eye with the enemy"; they drop down 6" away, and if they roll 5 or 6 for the Advance, it allows them to get close enough to the enemy (1") so that they cannot shoot at any other target.)
Proposition 2 (jaxom)
Edge of the Spear: Units with this rule that are held in reserve may reroll Charge distance during the turn they are deployed. Love this. Short, neat and elegant.
Merciless Fighters: If the numbers of Sons of Horus Infantry models in engaged with an enemy unit is great than that of the enemy unit then each model with this rule may make a single melee attack if the enemy unit Flees. Perhaps keep the rule as it is; one additional attack?
Bitter Pride: Units with this special rule cannot benefit from Auras from a Character unless they also have LA(Sons of Horus).
Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: True Believers: Roll two dice for your morale checks, discarding the highest.
Proposition 2 (jaxom)
True Believers: Roll 3d6 for Morale checks and use the lowest result. That's two dice extra, did you forget morale checks are on single D6?
Cut Them Down: Units cannot Flee during the Movement phase if they took more wounds in the previous Combat phase when engaged with a unit with this rule.
Charismatic Leadership: Any detachment containing a unit with this rule must contain an additional HQ choice with the Word Bearer keyword and either the Centurion or Chaplain keyword. This unit does not fill any detachment slots.
Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: Strength of Will: May re-roll Morale checks.
Proposition 2 (jaxom)
Strength of Will: Units with this rule re-roll one die when making Morale checks and ignore negative penalties to Morale checks.
Promethean Gift: Units with this rule gain +1 Strength with hand flamers, flamers, and heavy flamers. Salamander Vehicles in a detachment containing units with this rule gain this rule. All enemy flamer-type attacks have a -1 Strength against models with this rule.
Nocturne Born: Units with this rule have roll two d6 and use the lowest when Advancing. Units with this rule re-roll successful charge rolls; if the second result is a failure then they still charge, but are activated during the Combat phase as if they did not.
Proposition 1 (jaxom)
By Wing & Talon: Infantry with the Fly, Bike, Jetbike, or Terminator keyword gain +1 To Wound in the Combat phase after they Charge. Infantry without any of those keywords can deploy [standard Infiltrate boilerplate].
Flesh Over Steel: A detachment containing units with this rule cannot have more units with the Vehicle keyword than the Infantry keyword. This may effect which detachments can include units with this rule.
Proposition 1 (Kais Klip)
URoW: Coils of the Hydra
Subterfuge: As is.
Signal Corruption: Once per game, prevent the opponent from deploying a unit from reserves that turn.
Rewards of Treason: As is.
NB: Banestrike Shells on Alpha Legion Terminators are now very strong; S4 AP -2 Rapid Fire 2, giving each terminator 4 shots within 12". Any proposals to limit this?
Proposition 2 (jaxom)
Mutable Tactics: Units with this rule in a detachment that contains only units with the Alpha Legion keyword gain on of the benefits below, chosen prior to deployment.
- May make a move after all deployment is complete, but cannot end within 9" of an enemy unit.
- [Standard Infiltrate boilerplate].
- Re-roll To Wound against units with the Vehicle keyword.
- Ignore penalties to movement from Terrain.
- Negate a psyker power targeting the unit on a 5+.
Martial Hubris: If number of units with this rule destroyed by the end of a game outnumber enemy units destroyed then the enemy gains +1 Victory Point if they are being used and a morale victory if they are not.
Edited by Kais Klip, Today, 03:26 AM.