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8th Edition Legiones Astartes (11/06: I - V, VIII, XII)

8th Edition Legiones Astartes LA ROWs

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#1
Kais Klip

Kais Klip

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Greetings.

This shall be an in-depth thread in which we put forward a modular thesis based on rigorously applied rationale and existing historical precedent married to educated supposition where no historical precedent is found.

Yes, this is a wish-listing thread.

I'm organizing a little get-together for my HH group, albeit we've decided to go heretical and covert the Horus Heresy legion list into a usable format for 8th edition. Everything is dandy so far; converting weapon and character stats (20 wound Spartans sleepnew.png) is simple, given both follow rigorous ratios when comparing their 7th edition stats to 8th edition.

The hard part is figuring out the non-quantitative bits; which units get what special rules is one thing, but what is completely out of our grasp is coming up with 8th edition versions of Legiones Astartes rules. Many of the 7th edition LA rules were presented in such a creative way that a lot of times I was delighted in how they conveyed complex attributes through quite simple means, so I thought reaching out and jotting down as many ideas as possible would be a wonderful exercise in itself.

How will Flawless Execution be represented without an Initiative stat? How will Edge of the Spear work with guaranteed reserves? Since I don't usually approve of home brew, I'd also like to back this up with as much peer-review as possible. Please do make sure to comment on anything you find particularly elegant or clumsy.

Let's get the creative juices flowing, I am sure the FW team will be watching us, as they always do, for nuggets of inspirations rolleyesclean.gif

Bonus Round: Rites of War, both general and legion specific.

Bonus Bonus Round: Legion Unique Command Points & Abilities.

Dark Angels: (jaxom)

Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)

Bring Them Down: The Dark Angels excel at felling monstrous creatures and foul xenos the likes of which could not be imagined. Units with this rule gain +1 Damage when they roll a 6+ To Hit and automatically pass Morale checks when engaged with a unit with the Monster keyword.

 

Legion Stratagems:

(2CP) Legion of Unity: No one knows exactly what happened to the Thunder Warriors, just that they were gone and the First Legion stood in their place. Activate this before a unit makes it's attacks. The unit's attacks deal an additional point of Damage on a To Wound roll of 6.

(2CP) Knights of the Order : The martial practices of the Dark Angels are informed by the millenia old traditions of Caliban. Choose a unit during the Combat phase. It improves its Weapon Skill by 1.

Hexagrammaton Stratagem - The Dark Angels have an additional stratagem, based on the 'wing aura assigned to the army's Warlord character:


  • Deathwing - (3CP) Pride of the Firstborn: Activate at any time. Your force ignores Battleshock tests of all kind for the entire battleround. 
  • Ravenwing - (3CP) No Escape: One Jetbike, Outrider, Speeder or <flyer> in your Reinforcement pool may enter the game from your opponent's table edge. 
  • Firewing - (2CP) Turbis Purgation-Rounds: One unit's ranged attacks gains 'Deflagrate' for this Battleround. 
  • Stormwing - (3CP) Breaching Counter-Tactics: Activate in-place of Overwatch; the Dark Angel unit moves into base contact and counts as having successfully completed a charge. 
  • Dreadwing - (2CP) Acid Rounds: Activate before a unit with "bolt" weapons fires; said weapons roll a D6 to decide the weapons' AP value. On a roll of a 5 or 6 the ammunition misfires; the unit makes its attacks at an AP of -4 but it not make shooting attacks at all next Battleround. 
  • Ironwing - (2CP) Ancient Animus: Pick a Vehicle; Depending on the phase in which you've activate this Stratagem, you may immediately repeat the previous action with the Vehicle. It may not be used at all next Battleround as the Vehicle's crew reset systems to regain control. 

 

Emperor's Children: (Kais Klip)

Legiones Astartes (Emperor's Children)

Exemplars of War: The Emperor's Children place an importance on speed and the precision of maneuver above all else in war. All units with this rule roll 2 dice and choose the highest when making an Advance. When choosing a unit to fight in close combat, an additional character with this rule may be chosen alongside a chosen unit.

Martial Pride: The Legion's pride was a tangible thing, and it's officers were  quick to defend it in blood. Some whispered it was more the prestige of their rank that they were so eager to guardr. All characters with this rule must perform a Heroic Intervention if they are able to. When a character with this rule falls in close combat, all units with this rule within 3" are at -1 Leadership for that Battle Round.

Legion Stratagems:

(1CP) Palatine Eagles: Activate when an enemy unit falls back from any unit with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords; the enemy unit immediately suffers D6 Mortal Wounds.

(1CP) Exemplary Marksmanship: One unit with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords improves its Ballistic Skill by 1 for this turn.

(3CP) Flawless Execution: A single unit with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords may either Advance the full distance or charge the full distance.

Rite of War: The Maru Skara

Open Blade: In the first player turn, all units with the <Legion> and <Emperor's Children> keywords may declare a charge after advancing.

Hidden Blade: Select 1-3 Elite/Fast Attack units. These units are not destroyed if they are still in the reinforcement pool by 3rd Battle Round, instead being destroyed if they are not deployed by the 4th Battle round.

 

Iron Warriors:

Legiones Astartes (Iron Warriors)

Wrack and Ruin: Units with this rule ignore shooting casualties for the purposes of Battleshock tests. All units with this rule may use an additional grenade or melta bomb during the shooting and/or close combat phase.

The Bitter End: The Legion's calling card was eternally breaking the most unassailable fortresses and unfavorable positions, as much as it was dying for little more than glorified ditch-works in holding actions that would never be noted in the histories of the Great Crusade. An Iron Warrior player always forfeits the decision to choose deployment position, but for all other purposes follows normal pre-game procedure.

Warsmith: An optional upgrade for an Iron Warriors Praetor. The Warsmith must be Warlord, and awards the opponent 1 VP if the Warsmith is slain. All units within 3" of a Warsmith half the models removed as a result of a Battleshock test, rounding down.

Legion Stratagems

(2CP) Escalade: Use this stratagem when counting objectives scored, but before any random values are revealed. As long as there is an Iron Warrior unit within 3" of an objective within the opponent's deployment zone, enemy units also within 3" of an objective are ignored for the purposes of contesting objectives.

(2CP) Weapons Up: One unit uses their unmodified Ballistic Skill for the purposes of Overwatch.

(3CP) Fury of the IVth Legion: Provided they haven't moved this Battle Round, one unit may shoot an additional time during any action. If used in conjunction with Fury of the Legion, the unit fires a total of 6 times within Rapid Fire range.



White Scars:

Legiones Astartes (White Scars)


Swift Action: Any unit with this rule that moves the maximum distance available to it (before Advancing), re-roll To Wounds roll of 1 for all attacks as well as impose a -1 To Hit modifier on enemy units rolling ranged hits against it.

Eye of the Storm: A White Scar warlord add's +1 to the roll to determine turn order or an attempt to Steal the Initiative.

Born in the Saddle: White Scar Jetbike or Outrider units ignore Dangerous Terrain.

To Laugh In Death's Face: Each Dreadnought & Heavy Support unit in your force removes 1 Command Point. Each Fast Attack unit gives an additional 1 Command Point. Doesn't apply in Zone Mortalis Missions.

Legion Stratagems:

(2CP) Jink: Select a unit; enemy units shooting at that unit suffer a penalty of -1 to hit.

 

 

(2CP) Withdraw, Then Return: Activate after falling back with a unit; that unit may either double its movement, or charge after falling back.

 

 

(3CP) The Zao: Activate at the beginning of your turn; your entire force may advance its maximum as well as charge after advancing.

Space Wolves:

Imperial Fists:

 

Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - Unique Legion Wargear: Solarite Gauntlet: S x2 AP -4, No penalties to hit.

Proposition 2 (jaxom)
Disciplined Fire: Units with this special rule may add +1 to BS when using boltguns, bolt pistols, heavy bolters and quad heavy bolters, and when firing the bolter component of a combi-weapon. Heavy Support Squads with this rule also gain +1 Strength with Ranged weapons against units with the Vehicle keyword.
Blood and Honor: An Infantry Character model with this rule must always engage (not sure how to word this in rules terms) enemy Infantry Character models when possible and may re-roll failed To Hit rolls against enemy units with the Character keyword.
Unshakeable Defence: Units with this rule ignore negative penalties to Leadership when they are in cover.
The Bitter End: Units with this rule may ignore a Wound on a 6+ when within 3" of an objective. Seems to miss the point of TBE: it being a drawback. Although why it has to be the particular 6 turn drawback, I don't know. A minus is needed though.


Night Lords: (to Aeternas, for following)

Legiones Astartes (Night Lords)

A Talent for Murder: If Night Lords models outnumber enemy infantry in an assault, all participating models get a +1 bonus to their To Hit and To Wound rolls. Bulky and Very Bulky models count as single models.

Nostraman Blood: One additional model is removed during a failed Battleshock check.

Preysight: All models in the force ignore the negative effects of Night Fighting.

From the Shadows: Enemy units shooting at Night Lord units on the first turn of the game suffer -1 To Hit in addition to any other modifiers.  

Seeds of Dissent: If the force Warlord is slain, all Night Lord units make an immediate Battleshock test at -2 LD.

Legion Stratagems:

 

 

(2CP) The Scream: Enemy units use the lowest Leadership value present within the Unit for the purposes of Battleshock for the remainder of this Battleround, and ignore the presence of any Characters within proximity for the purposes of Battleshock tests for the remainder of this Battleround.

 

(2CP) Into the Night: Night Lord units may double their Movement distance when Falling Back at the expense of all other Actions during this Round.

 

(3CP) In Midnight Clad: Activate before setting up units and spend an additional [X]CP. The first [X] Battlerounds are under Night Fighting conditions.

Blood Angels:

Proposition 1 (Charlo) -

LA:BA:

Encarmine Fury: they keep the +1 to wound rolls in combat (which is sweet as it means a lot more in 8th ed rules).
Without Remorse, Without Relent: Must Pile-in where possible, potentially extra pile in moves - maybe something about not voluntarily falling back under 50% strength (represents their fight to the last man style).
Host of Angels: Can't take more vehicles units than units with the Legiones Astartes rule.

Rites of War:

Day of Revelation:

Cometh the Host: Jump infantry ignore the 50% reserve restriction for matched play, can arrive in your first movephase.
With Fire & Thunder: All units that arrived using the above gain the benefits of cover even in the open. Potentially extend it to an additional +1 if already in cover?!
The Opening of the Seal: Enemy units that suffer casualties as a result of shooting attacks frm any Jump Infantry unit that arrived from play via Cometh the Host suffer a -1 penalty to their Ld until the end of your player turn.
The Judgement of Angels: LA:BA Jump Infantry always strike first in a turn that they charge regardless of any abilities the enemy may have that prevent this. Probably only going to be a problem against EC/ Slaanesh.
By Honour Bound: Your characters must always make a Heroic Intervention if they are able (3" pile in if a combat is going on nearby)

Then all the restrictions are the same in 8th.

Day of Sorrow:

Resolute Defense: LA:BS cannot have their movement value negatively altered in anyway. When within 3" of an Objective they suffer no negative modifiers to Ld.
Aura of Wrath: Enemy units within 1" of units with LA:BA suffer a -1 penalty to their Ld
By Blood Sworn: LA:BA units dropped to 50% original strength ignore wounds on a 5+.
To the Bitter Dregs: LA:BA units at 50% or less original strength can no longer hold objectives, but are immune to the effects of battleshock. Unsure if this would be too OP, I think not as you can't score anymore but just become a sacrificial squad aiming to take people down with you and losing those last couple guys to battleshock seems senseless with this.
Bloody Handed: Your characters must always make a Heroic Intervention if they are able (3" pile in if a combat is going on nearby) and LA:BA must pile into an enemy unit after combat has finished if possible.

Proposition 2 (jaxom)

Encarmine Fury: Units with this rule have +1 To Wound when using a Melee weapon.
Without Remorse, Without Relent: Models with this special rule must end their Charge movement as close to the declared target as possible and cannot choose to Flee.
Host of Angels: A detachment containing units with this rule cannot have more units with the Vehicle keyword than the Infantry keyword; dedicated transports do not count towards this. This may effect which detachments can include units with this rule.

Iron Hands:

Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: Inviolate Armour: Reduce AP of all ranged weapons by 1.

Proposition 2 (jaxom)

Inviolate Armor: [seconds Proposition 1]
Stand and Fight: Units with this rule cannot Advance if an enemy unit is within range of its Ranged weapons at beginning of the Movement phase if the unit failed a Morale check in the previous Morale phase.
Rigid Tactics: A detachment containing units with this rule must have more Infantry and non-Flyer Vehicle units with this rule than other units with this rule. Certain detachments and Rites of War are unavailable to units with this rule because of this.

World Eaters: (Kais Klip)

Legiones Astartes (World Eaters)

Incarnate Violence: All learned quickly that the Legion's wrath was not a thing to be tested, nor indeed even witnessed. Units with this rule may re-roll 1's To-Wound on the turn they charge. Characters with this rule gain improve their Weapon Skill by +1 when fighting an enemy Character.

Bloodlust: Once the Legion's wrath was truly unleashed, it was more often than not completely unstoppable, including by its own command. When units with this rule choose to Advance, they must do so towards the closest enemy unit. Units with this rule may roll a D6 before making a battleshock test while in close combat. On a 4+, the unit does not take the battleshock test, and instead all models make an additional attack.

Blood Madness: Units with this rule make an additional attack when charging. Models removed as part of a battleshock test may immediately make an additional attack before being removed. This unit must always advance towards the closest enemy unit, and if a unit with this rule finds itself within 12" of an enemy unit and is able to charge, it must attempt to do so.


Legion Statagems:

(2CP) Lessons of Nuceria: Activate after an opponent spends CP to activate a Command Ability. It's effects are ignored.

(1CP) The Bloody Twelth: One unit or character may make an additional close combat attack.

(2CP) The Crimson Path: Activate when a charging unit loses a model or models to Overwatch. They get to make all their attacks before being removed.


Exhortations of Butchery: Any non-character model in a unit with the <Legion> and <World Eaters> keywords within 3" of an Apothecary with the <Legion> and <World Eaters> keywords, may make an additional close combat attack. Any model that does so must roll a D6, suffering a Mortal Wound on a 1.

Additional Proposed Legion Special Unit:

Legion Decimatus (Consul Upgrade)

Wargear:
Discipline Staff (Power Maul)
Bolt pistol
Frag and Krak Grenades

Enforcer: The Decimatus was a rank whose presence was evident foremost among the VIth and XIIth Legions, but nonetheless present in all the Legions. The Decimatus was more often than not a role assigned to problematically belligerent legionaries who did not posses the initiative and self-reliance of their Moritat counterparts. These individuals were assigned to supplementary periodical Hypno-Induction, a process that was rumored to continue beneath their ever-present helms, and were relied upon by Legion Command to reign in problematic legionaries retarding the battle plan. Commonly replaced by the more "Crusade ideal conclusive" Chaplains of the latter years of the Great Crusade, many of the new-found Chaplains nevertheless kept the old equipment of their rank, and indeed their temperament.

Disciplinary Authority: At the beginning of a Battle Round, all Units within 3" of a Decimatus may choose to ignore their Legiones Astartes (Legion) special rules. If they choose do so, they automatically suffer a single Mortal Wound. Should a unit within 3" of a Decimatus fail a Battleshock test, it ignores the result rolled and instead suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.

Ultramarines:

Proposition 1 (jaxom)

Certainty and Resolve: Units with this rule count as taking one less casualty when taking a Morale check. Ultramarine excel at re-gaining control, i.e. regrouping, rather than maintaining... discipline. At least 7th ed FW seemed to think so. And yet, your method of representing this seems to be the most elegant available.
Rigid Chain of Command: If a unit containing this rule is in a detachment that has lost all itsHQ units then their opponent gains +1 Victory Point. If the army's general is slain then all units with this rule must make a Morale check in the Morale phase with a penalty to Leadership equal to the number of HQ units in the detachment that have been slain (including the general).

Death Guard:

Proposition 1 (jaxom)

Remorseless: Units with this rule ignore negative penalties to Leadership from Psychic powers and Ranged weapons. Love the first part, but ignoring ranged morale steps on the IW toes a little bit. We need a more creative way to differentiate the two.
Sons of Barbarus: Units with this rule can re-roll the number of Mortal Wounds caused by terrain features.
Intractable: Units with this rule can only Consolidate 2".

Proposition 2 (Kais Klip)

Remorseless: [see above]
Sons of Barbarus: [see above], LA: Death Guard remove one unit of Damage from any wounds that deal more than one damage.

Thousand Sons:

Proposition Great Work of jgcoine011


  • All TS can re-roll FAILED psychic powers
  • If any unit suffers a perils then all LA:TS take an immediate moral check
  • ROW are:

- Crimson King
Roll 3D6 for psychic tests and MUST pick 2 highest, any double 1s or 6s still perils regardless (so if you roll a 1,1 and 5 you still perils even though you use the 5 and 1 which is bad for TS)
Rest Stays the same

- Axis of Dissolution
No change needed


  • Cults are:

- Raptora

  • 6+ Invun or +1 to any invun (max 3++)
  • Any psykers know Teleportation power (6+ to cast, unit can immediatly move 12", can not charge afterwards)

- Pavoni

  • +1 to movment, assault, advance and consolidation rolls
  • Any psykers know choppy choppy power (6+ to cast, unit always strikes 1st in combat, +3 Strength)

- Corvidae

  • Re-roll 1's to hit in shooting if didnt move
  • Any psyker knows the Shoot Shooty power (6+ to cast, re-roll all failed to hit rolls)

- Pyrae

  • All enemy models in base contact take a S4 hit
  • Any psyker knows molten beam power (6+ to cast, 12" Melta gun with beam effect)

- Athanean

  • Re-roll faild moral tests
  • All psykers know terrify power (6+ to cast, each wound caused by this unit is doubled for the purpose of moral tests)

Special Wargear is

  • Aether fire cannon - 10 point plasma cannon upgrade that makes any roll of a 6 to wound a mortal wound
  • Asphyx shells - re-roll to wound with bolters, combi-bolters and bolt pistols

Special Units

  • Sehkmet Terminatos - Basically everything as is, but they know Crush Power (6+ to cast, S 2D6, AP -4, D D6, Assault 1, If the strength is 11 or 12 then its mortal wounds and the damage is automatically a 6)
  • Occult blades - Again stats are the standard marine equivalent, but 1-3 get +1A, 4-5 get WS 2+, 6-9 get to re-roll to hit in combat
  • Osirion Dread - Contemptor dread stats but its force weapon does mortal wounds on a 6+ to wound and it knows psychic shriek power (3D6 - enemy Ld, AP-4)
  • Interssion Cabal - Stats and equipment as is but knows the killy killy power instead (cast on a 6+, all shooting attacks wound on a 4+ and are moral wounds)
  • Arhimans command Squad - WS2+, BS2+ Sv2+ and 2 Wounds (3 on the standard). Knows the Lucky :cusss Power (6+ Re-roll all failed saves)

Special Characters
- Arhiman

  • Can cast 3 powers a turn
  • Knows 3 powers:

6+ to cast, units within 6" gets a 4+ invun
6+ to cast, all attacks from units within 6" ignore Armour saves on a 6+ to wound
6+ to cast, all units within 6" overwatch at full BS

- Amon just stays the same..never used him so dont really know what he does

- Magnus

  • -1 to hit him and all units within 6"
  • Knows 5 Powers, can cast 4 a turn

- 6+ to cast, +3A and S
- 6+ to cast, all enemy units within 9" take 2D6 S4 AP-1 hits (I am thinking of a sunburst here)
- 6+ to cast, 18" S6 AP-4, D D3 Assault 3 hits, for each model killed, magnus regains a wound
- 6+ to cast, 18" range, all enemy units within 2D6" take 2D6 S3 AP- D1 hits, any unit that suffers 1 or more wounds is at -1BS and WS and has its movment halfed until the next turn ( i am thinking of a sandstorm for this power)
- 6+ to cast, chose an enemy unit and move it anywhere within 4D6". It then takes D3 S10 AP-4 hits or D6 if the unit contains 10 or more models (for this i am thinking he just lifts up a unit with his mind and then drops it)

  • All powers ignore cover saves
  • Can increase the casting requirment by 2 to double the range and add 2D6 to the strength...if strength is above 10 then any wounds are mortal wounds
  • Can re-roll all failed casting attempts
  • His force blade is +2S, AP-5 with D3 wounds
  • His gun is 18" S8, AP-4, Assault D3, with any wound on a 6+ doing a mortal wound
  • His Stats would be M8, WS2+, BS2+ S7, T6, W8, A4, Ld10, Sv2+/4++

Sons of Horus:

Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: Edge of the Spear: Your Reserves can be deployed up to 6" away from the enemy, instead of 9". (Meh)

(You could justify this with the XVIth reputation for being "eye to eye with the enemy"; they drop down 6" away, and if they roll 5 or 6 for the Advance, it allows them to get close enough to the enemy (1") so that they cannot shoot at any other target.)

Proposition 2 (jaxom)

Edge of the Spear: Units with this rule that are held in reserve may reroll Charge distance during the turn they are deployed. Love this. Short, neat and elegant.
Merciless Fighters: If the numbers of Sons of Horus Infantry models in engaged with an enemy unit is great than that of the enemy unit then each model with this rule may make a single melee attack if the enemy unit Flees. Perhaps keep the rule as it is; one additional attack?
Bitter Pride: Units with this special rule cannot benefit from Auras from a Character unless they also have LA(Sons of Horus).

Word Bearers:

Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: True Believers: Roll two dice for your morale checks, discarding the highest.

Proposition 2 (jaxom)

True Believers: Roll 3d6 for Morale checks and use the lowest result. That's two dice extra, did you forget morale checks are on single D6?
Cut Them Down: Units cannot Flee during the Movement phase if they took more wounds in the previous Combat phase when engaged with a unit with this rule.
Charismatic Leadership: Any detachment containing a unit with this rule must contain an additional HQ choice with the Word Bearer keyword and either the Centurion or Chaplain keyword. This unit does not fill any detachment slots.

Salamanders:

Proposition 1 (Kais Klip) - LA: Strength of Will: May re-roll Morale checks.

Proposition 2 (jaxom)

Strength of Will: Units with this rule re-roll one die when making Morale checks and ignore negative penalties to Morale checks.
Promethean Gift: Units with this rule gain +1 Strength with hand flamers, flamers, and heavy flamers. Salamander Vehicles in a detachment containing units with this rule gain this rule. All enemy flamer-type attacks have a -1 Strength against models with this rule.
Nocturne Born: Units with this rule have roll two d6 and use the lowest when Advancing. Units with this rule re-roll successful charge rolls; if the second result is a failure then they still charge, but are activated during the Combat phase as if they did not.

Raven Guard:

Proposition 1 (jaxom)

By Wing & Talon: Infantry with the Fly, Bike, Jetbike, or Terminator keyword gain +1 To Wound in the Combat phase after they Charge. Infantry without any of those keywords can deploy [standard Infiltrate boilerplate].
Flesh Over Steel: A detachment containing units with this rule cannot have more units with the Vehicle keyword than the Infantry keyword. This may effect which detachments can include units with this rule.

Alpha Legion:

Proposition 1 (Kais Klip)
URoW: Coils of the Hydra
Subterfuge: As is.
Signal Corruption: Once per game, prevent the opponent from deploying a unit from reserves that turn.
Rewards of Treason: As is.

NB: Banestrike Shells on Alpha Legion Terminators are now very strong; S4 AP -2 Rapid Fire 2, giving each terminator 4 shots within 12". Any proposals to limit this?

Proposition 2 (jaxom)

Alpha Legion
Mutable Tactics: Units with this rule in a detachment that contains only units with the Alpha Legion keyword gain on of the benefits below, chosen prior to deployment.
- May make a move after all deployment is complete, but cannot end within 9" of an enemy unit.
- [Standard Infiltrate boilerplate].
- Re-roll To Wound against units with the Vehicle keyword.
- Ignore penalties to movement from Terrain.
- Negate a psyker power targeting the unit on a 5+.
Martial Hubris: If number of units with this rule destroyed by the end of a game outnumber enemy units destroyed then the enemy gains +1 Victory Point if they are being used and a morale victory if they are not.


Edited by Kais Klip, Today, 03:26 AM.

  • Black Orange likes this

"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin


#2
jaxom

jaxom

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I'm onboard, started on it, but it's getting too late. Give me 18 hours or so.


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#3
Apologist

Apologist

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  • Chapter Name: Ultramarines: The Praetors of Calth
The Ultramarines' Interlocking Tactics can work in much the same way as currently.

More broadly, though, I think a conversion to 8th might benefit from a different approach. Rather than layering special rules (which were often innovative ways of utilising 7th ed's peculiarities), why not try looking at unique force org charts and command points?

That's a softer way of encouraging certain army builds (a la Rites of War) and showing the difference between the Legions.
  • Kais Klip likes this

+Death of a Rubricist+

My blog

 

May You Live Forever – a narrative Iron Hands blog | Officio Monstrosa – Iron Warriors during the siege of Terra | The Praetors of Calth – Ultramarines from Crusade to Scouring


#4
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

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IW is easy.
No leadership test against shooting, grenades can re-roll to wound against units with keyword 'vehicle' and structures.
And the turn thing of course.
RoW stay as they are.

Edited by Gorgoff, 05 June 2017 - 06:30 AM.

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#5
Charlo

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Blood angels are easy too:

 

LA:BA:

 

Encarmine Fury: they keep the +1 to wound rolls in combat (which is sweet as it means a lot more in 8th ed rules).

Without Remorse, Without Relent: Must Pile-in where possible, potentially extra pile in moves - maybe something about not voluntarily falling back under 50% strength (represents their fight to the last man style).

Host of Angels: Can't take more vehicles units than units with the Legiones Astartes rule.

 

Rites of War:

 

Day of Revelation:

 

Cometh the Host: Jump infantry ignore the 50% reserve restriction for matched play, can arrive in your first movephase.

With Fire & Thunder: All units that arrived using the above gain the benefits of cover even in the open. Potentially extend it to an additional +1 if already in cover?!

The Opening of the Seal: Enemy units that suffer casualties as a result of shooting attacks frm any Jump Infantry unit that arrived from play via Cometh the Host suffer a -1 penalty to their Ld until the end of your player turn.

The Judgement of Angels: LA:BA Jump Infantry always strike first in a turn that they charge regardless of any abilities the enemy may have that prevent this. Probably only going to be a problem against EC/ Slaanesh.

By Honour Bound: Your characters must always make a Heroic Intervention if they are able (3" pile in if a combat is going on nearby)

 

Then all the restrictions are the same in 8th.

 

Day of Sorrow:

 

Resolute Defense: LA:BS cannot have their movement value negatively altered in anyway. When within 3" of an Objective they suffer no negative modifiers to Ld.

Aura of Wrath: Enemy units within 1" of units with LA:BA suffer a -1 penalty to their Ld

By Blood Sworn: LA:BA units dropped to 50% original strength ignore wounds on a 5+.

To the Bitter Dregs: LA:BA units at 50% or less original strength can no longer hold objectives, but are immune to the effects of battleshock. Unsure if this would be too OP, I think not as you can't score anymore but just become a sacrificial squad aiming to take people down with you and losing those last couple guys to battleshock seems senseless with this.

Bloody Handed: Your characters must always make a Heroic Intervention if they are able (3" pile in if a combat is going on nearby) and LA:BA must pile into an enemy unit after combat has finished if possible.


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In Their Fists They Carry Death - The Legiones Custodes

++WIP Thread++

++Index Astartes Sanguine Visions++

++Heresy WIP Thread: Talons++


#6
Baluc

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The main problem you are going to run into is, how RoW interact with the idea of multiple detachments foundation of 8th edition.

 

LA rules are easy enough to convert, as are most Legion weapons since they are mostly variations on standard gear. 

 

Allies may also be an issue since the system doesn't exist any longer. 



#7
Kais Klip

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I agree Baluc, so why don't we hamfist them together; our Rite of Wars merely become varieties of the existing detachment system with various levels of Minimums and Maximums. 

 

Thanks for the write up Charlo, I actually like To the Bitter Dregs ignoring battleshock altogether, I wouldn't think its too much considering any casualties that would cause a failed battleshock (ie ~3+) would cripple the already under-strength squad as it is. 

 

Apologist: I actually really like your proposal, care to get us started on Legion Unique command abilities? I really enjoyed what 40k did with combat doctrines, however I did think it was a waste that they were only one-use. The difficulty comes in making things different to the Guard order system, but I don't see how that would be a problem if each legion had a few unique "call-in" abilities. 

 

You're right Gorgoff, I actually forgot to fill out Iron Warriors, but you must be used to it wub.gif


Edited by Kais Klip, 05 June 2017 - 08:13 PM.

"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin


#8
Aramis K

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I was hoping a legion list for 8th would emerge. I started my thinking with the basic legion units though, all pretty simple until I got to how to distinguish marksman vets, seekers, and recon snipers. I wanted to keep it thematic more than directly translate the heresy rules. Sniper is too much.

My first effort:

Marksmen Veterans get S4 ap -2 bolters
(aka Sternguard) and can arrive from reserve within 6" of table edge and 9" from any enemy.

Seekers get heavy 1 S5 ap -3 bolters and are able to target characters.

Recon marine snipers get S4 and ap -3 on a 6 to hit, can target characters, camo gives +2 save in cover, and can be deployed anywhere more than 18" from enemy.
My Heresy Alpha Legion log - XX in progress

#9
Kais Klip

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I was hoping a legion list for 8th would emerge. I started my thinking with the basic legion units though, all pretty simple until I got to how to distinguish marksman vets, seekers, and recon snipers. I wanted to keep it thematic more than directly translate the heresy rules. Sniper is too much.

My first effort:

Marksmen Veterans get S4 ap -2 bolters
(aka Sternguard) and can arrive from reserve within 6" of table edge and 9" from any enemy.

Seekers get heavy 1 S5 ap -3 bolters and are able to target characters.

Recon marine snipers get S4 and ap -3 on a 6 to hit, can target characters, camo gives +2 save in cover, and can be deployed anywhere more than 18" from enemy.

 

I'd like to stay away from getting bogged down in unit-specific weapons and weapon stats where possible. I don't think its necessary to hand veterans special ammunition; that is the realm of the Seekers, who's weapon stats can already be very easily ascertained, as you have done yourself for the Scorpios round. We can also assume Seekers will be able to target characters irrespective of their distance, just like Snipers. 

 

Question is, would it be reasonable for veterans to keep their Sniper option? I really struggle to see how a unit with neither the optics of Recon squads, nor the specific talent set of Seekers (BS5 and expert marksmanship under high stress), is still able to achieve the same result. Perhaps we can come up with a suitable alternative for Veterans to represent their previous, 7th edition Sniper rule? 

 

Also, would everyone be in accord that Precious Shot/Strike stays as-is? Should we scrap Look Out Sir? 


"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin


#10
jgascoine011

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Was thinking of the same thing. 

My TS need an update for 8th because no one plays 30k in my area and so need rules to play in 40k.

 

Anyway I was thinking of the following

  • All TS can re-roll FAILED psychic powers
  • If any unit suffers a perils then all LA:TS take an immediate moral check

 

  • ROW are:

- Crimson King

Roll 3D6 for psychic tests and MUST pick 2 highest, any double 1s or 6s still perils regardless (so if you roll a 1,1 and 5 you still perils even though you use the 5 and 1 which is bad for TS)

Rest Stays the same

 

- Axis of Dissolution

No change needed 

 

  • Cults are:

- Raptora

  • 6+ Invun or +1 to any invun (max 3++)
  • Any psykers know Teleportation power (6+ to cast, unit can immediatly move 12", can not charge afterwards) 

- Pavoni

  • +1 to movment, assault, advance and consolidation rolls
  • Any psykers know choppy choppy power (6+ to cast, unit always strikes 1st in combat, +3 Strength)

- Corvidae

  • Re-roll 1's to hit in shooting if didnt move
  • Any psyker knows the Shoot Shooty power (6+ to cast, re-roll all failed to hit rolls)

- Pyrae

  • All enemy models in base contact take a S4 hit
  • Any psyker knows molten beam power (6+ to cast, 12" Melta gun with beam effect) 

- Athanean

  • Re-roll faild moral tests
  • All psykers know terrify power (6+ to cast, each wound caused by this unit is doubled for the purpose of moral tests)

 

Special Wargear is 

  • Aether fire cannon - 10 point plasma cannon upgrade that makes any roll of a 6 to wound a mortal wound
  • Asphyx shells - re-roll to wound with bolters, combi-bolters and bolt pistols

 

Special Units

  • Sehkmet Terminatos - Basically everything as is, but they know Crush Power (6+ to cast, S 2D6, AP -4, D D6, Assault 1, If the strength is 11 or 12 then its mortal wounds and the damage is automatically a 6)
  • Occult blades - Again stats are the standard marine equivalent, but 1-3 get +1A, 4-5 get WS 2+, 6-9 get to re-roll to hit in combat
  • Osirion Dread - Contemptor dread stats but its force weapon does mortal wounds on a 6+ to wound and it knows psychic shriek power (3D6 - enemy Ld, AP-4)
  • Interssion Cabal - Stats and equipment as is but knows the killy killy power instead (cast on a 6+, all shooting attacks wound on a 4+ and are moral wounds) 
  • Arhimans command Squad - WS2+, BS2+ Sv2+ and 2 Wounds (3 on the standard). Knows the Lucky :cusss Power (6+ Re-roll all failed saves)

 

Special Characters

- Arhiman

  • Can cast 3 powers a turn
  • Knows 3 powers:

6+ to cast, units within 6" gets a 4+ invun

6+ to cast, all attacks from units within 6" ignore Armour saves on a 6+ to wound

6+ to cast, all units within 6" overwatch at full BS

 

- Amon just stays the same..never used him so dont really know what he does

 

- Magnus

  • -1 to hit him and all units within 6"
  • Knows 5 Powers, can cast 4 a turn

- 6+ to cast, +3A and S

- 6+ to cast, all enemy units within 9" take 2D6 S4 AP-1 hits (I am thinking of a sunburst here)

- 6+ to cast, 18" S6 AP-4, D D3 Assault 3 hits, for each model killed, magnus regains a wound 

- 6+ to cast, 18" range, all enemy units within 2D6" take 2D6 S3 AP- D1 hits, any unit that suffers 1 or more wounds is at -1BS and WS and has its movment halfed until the next turn ( i am thinking of a sandstorm for this power)

- 6+ to cast, chose an enemy unit and move it anywhere within 4D6". It then takes D3 S10 AP-4 hits or D6 if the unit contains 10 or more models (for this i am thinking he just lifts up a unit with his mind and then drops it)

  • All powers ignore cover saves
  • Can increase the casting requirment by 2 to double the range and add 2D6 to the strength...if strength is above 10 then any wounds are mortal wounds
  • Can re-roll all failed casting attempts
  • His force blade is +2S, AP-5 with D3 wounds
  • His gun is 18" S8, AP-4, Assault D3, with any wound on a 6+ doing a mortal wound
  • His Stats would be M8, WS2+, BS2+ S7, T6, W8, A4, Ld10, Sv2+/4++

 

Also

All terminators get 2W (legion specific and standard get 2W)

Veterans

 - sniper vets gets changed ignore armour on a 6+ to wound  

 - monster hunters are wound all monsters on a 4+

 - tank hunters are wound all tanks on a 4+

 

 

With these changes the TS still play fairly similar but with the OP censored.gif being tonned down.

Magnus needs to be really lucky to get off the giant bubble of death...he would need a 8+ with a re-roll followed by 6 on 2D6 for the best result...so only about 25% of the time, and if he fails his attacks are rather mehh

The Shekmet terminators a 2W terminators with a 3++ but then their AP is rather crap with just having force axes in combat...and honestly all terminators are going that way so will be no better than salamander terminators


Edited by jgascoine011, 06 June 2017 - 12:36 AM.

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#11
jaxom

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Here's the LA variants I came up with.
 
Legiones Astartes: Roll two d6 and use the lowest for Morale checks.
 
Dark Angels
Mastery of the Blade: Units with this rule gain -1 AP with Melee weapons when fighting a model with equal or lower Weapon Skill. (I despise the current weapon dependent version for many reasons)
Covenant of Death: The opposing force ganins d3 Victory Points if it has an equal or greater number of units in play than an army whose general has this rule when the game ends.
 
Emperor's Children
Flawless Execution: Units with this special rule roll 2 dice when Advancing and use the highest dice rolled and may make a 4" Consolidation Move.
Martial Pride: An Infantry Character model with this rule must always engage (not sure how to word this in rules terms) enemy Infantry Character models when possible. If the model with this rule damages the enemy Character then enemy Infantry units within 6" have a -1 to Leadership during the next Morale phase. If the model with this rule is damaged by the enemy Character then all Emperor's Children Infantry units within 6" have a -1 to Leadership during the next Morale phase.
 
Iron Warriors:
Wrack & Ruin: Units with this rule do have +1 Leadership during the Morale phase if they took casualties from Shooting. All grenade attacks made by units with this rule can re-roll any dice determining the number of attacks or determining damage.
The Bitter End: Units with this rule may ignore a Wound on a 6+ when within 3" of an objective.
 
White Scars
Swift Action: A unit with this rule gains the following benefits until the beginning of its next turn if it moves its full Movement value.
- Re-roll failed To Wound rolls of a 1.
- Gain a 6+ Invulnerable save or improve an existing Invulnerable save by +1.
The Eye of the Storm: ???
To Laugh in Death's Face: A detachment only containing units with the White Scar keyword must take a Fast Attack or Flyer choice before any Heavy Support choices. This may effect which type of detachment can be used with units with this world.
Born in the Saddle: Models with this rule and the Bike and/or Jetbike keyword Advances 6" instead of rolling and ignore penalties to Movement from Terrain.
 
 
Space Wolves
I don't know their rules. 
 
Imperial Fists
Disciplined Fire: Units with this special rule may add +1 to BS when using boltguns, bolt pistols, heavy bolters and quad heavy bolters, and when firing the bolter component of a combi-weapon. Heavy Support Squads with this rule also gain +1 Strength with Ranged weapons against units with the Vehicle keyword.
Blood and Honor: An Infantry Character model with this rule must always engage (not sure how to word this in rules terms) enemy Infantry Character models when possible and may re-roll failed To Hit rolls against enemy units with the Character keyword.
Unshakeable Defence: Units with this rule ignore negative penalties to Leadership when they are in cover.
The Bitter End: Units with this rule may ignore a Wound on a 6+ when within 3" of an objective.
 
Night Lords
A Talent for Murder: Units with this rule gain +1 To Wound enemy Infantry units during Combat if they outnumber the engaged enemy unit. 
Nostraman Blood: Units with this rule gain +1" Movement when Fleeing. After Fleeing, a unit with this rule may choose to immediately take a Morale check to act normally during the rest of the player's turn. The check has a -1 penalty for each enemy unit within 6".
Night Vision: When using the Night Vision strategem on a unit in a detachment with a majority of Night Lord units, roll a d6. On a 4+ reduce the number of Command Points spent by one.
From the Shadows: Units with this rule have +1 to their save for the first game turn (this counts as cover for the purpose of other rules).
Seeds of Dissent: If a Night Lord Character is slain, each Night Lord unit in the same detachment must make a Morale check during the Morale phase.
 
Blood Angels
Encarmine Fury: Units with this rule have +1 To Wound when using a Melee weapon.
Without Remorse, Without Relent: Models with this special rule must end their Charge movement as close to the declared target as possible and cannot choose to Flee.
Host of Angels: A detachment containing units with this rule cannot have more units with the Vehicle keyword than the Infantry keyword; dedicated transports do not count towards this. This may effect which detachments can include units with this rule.
 
 
Iron Hands
Inviolate Armor: Kais Klip has it down.
Stand and Fight: Units with this rule cannot Advance if an enemy unit is within range of its Ranged weapons at beginning of the Movement phase if the unit failed a Morale check in the previous Morale phase.
Rigid Tactics: A detachment containing units with this rule must have more Infantry and non-Flyer Vehicle units with this rule than other units with this rule. Certain detachments and Rites of War are unavailable to units with this rule because of this.
 
World Eaters
Incarnate Violence: Units with this rule gain +1" Movement and +1 Strength until the end of their next turn if an enemy unit they are engaged with is destroyed or loses any models because of a failed Morale check.
Bloodlust: Units with this rule must end their Charge movement as close to the declared target as possible and cannot choose to Flee. Should a unit with this rule lose models because of a Morale check then then unit gains +1 Attack and -1 Weapon Skill until the end of their next turn. 
Blood Madness (Traitor option that replaces Bloodlust): Units with this rule must end their Charge movement as close to the declared target as possible and cannot choose to Flee, have +1 Attack and -1 Weapon Skill, and automatically pass Morale checks while engaged in combat.
 
Ultramarines
Interlocking Tactics: 
- As is but ends after "rolls of 1 To Wound".  
- As is.
Certainty and Resolve: Units with this rule count as taking one less casualty when taking a Morale check.
Rigid Chain of Command: If a unit containing this rule is in a detachment that has lost all itsHQ units then their opponent gains +1 Victory Point. If the army's general is slain then all units with this rule must make a Morale check in the Morale phase with a penalty to Leadership equal to the number of HQ units in the detachment that have been slain (including the general).
 
Death Guard
Remorseless: Units with this rule ignore negative penalties to Leadership from Psychic powers and Ranged weapons.
Sons of Barbarus: Units with this rule can re-roll the number of Mortal Wounds caused by terrain features.
Intractable: Units with this rule can only Consolidate 2".
 
Thousand Sons
I don't know their rules.
 
Sons of Horus
Edge of the Spear: Units with this rule that are held in reserve may reroll Charge distance during the turn they are deployed.
Merciless Fighters: If the numbers of Sons of Horus Infantry models in engaged with an enemy unit is great than that of the enemy unit then each model with this rule may make a single melee attack if the enemy unit Flees.
Bitter Pride: Units with this special rule cannot benefit from Auras from a Character unless they also have LA(Sons of Horus).
 
Word Bearers
True Believers: Roll 3d6 for Morale checks and use the lowest result.
Cut Them Down: Units cannot Flee during the Movement phase if they took more wounds in the previous Combat phase when engaged with a unit with this rule.
Charismatic Leadership: Any detachment containing a unit with this rule must contain an additional HQ choice with the Word Bearer keyword and either the Centurion or Chaplain keyword. This unit does not fill any detachment slots.
 
Salamanders
Strength of Will: Units with this rule re-roll one die when making Morale checks and ignore negative penalties to Morale checks.
Promethean Gift: Units with this rule gain +1 Strength with hand flamers, flamers, and heavy flamers. Salamander Vehicles in a detachment containing units with this rule gain this rule. All enemy flamer-type attacks have a -1 Strength against models with this rule.
Nocturne Born: Units with this rule have roll two d6 and use the lowest when Advancing. Units with this rule re-roll successful charge rolls; if the second result is a failure then they still charge, but are activated during the Combat phase as if they did not.
 
Raven Guard
By Wing & Talon: Infantry with the Fly, Bike, Jetbike, or Terminator keyword gain +1 To Wound in the Combat phase after they Charge. Infantry without any of those keywords can deploy [standard Infiltrate boilerplate].
Flesh Over Steel: A detachment containing units with this rule cannot have more units with the Vehicle keyword than the Infantry keyword. This may effect which detachments can include units with this rule.
 
Alpha Legion
Mutable Tactics: Units with this rule in a detachment that contains only units with the Alpha Legion keyword gain on of the benefits below, chosen prior to deployment.
- May make a move after all deployment is complete, but cannot end within 9" of an enemy unit.
- [Standard Infiltrate boilerplate].
- Re-roll To Wound against units with the Vehicle keyword.
- Ignore penalties to movement from Terrain.
- Negate a psyker power targeting the unit on a 5+.
Martial Hubris: If number of units with this rule destroyed by the end of a game outnumber enemy units destroyed then the enemy gains +1 Victory Point if they are being used and a morale victory if they are not.
 
I started direct conversion of the unique Rites of War, but after seeing Apologist's comment I scrapped them to make them into Stratagems though may do some of the Legion specific units next instead.

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#12
Snook

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Tell me what you think smile.png not that you wouldnt biggrin.png

 

Maru Skara:

 

Detachment

 

You can place up to 50% in reserve

 

3x HQ one must be a Legion Champion

4x Elite

6x Troops

*3x Fast Attack

*3x Heavy Support

1x LoW

 

* The player can choose to exchange FA for HS choices and vice versa to a maximum of two.

If the Legion Champion gets slain the enemy gets one (1) victory point.

 

Maru Skara Commands (can only be used with a Maru Skara Detachment)

 

Hidden Blade cost * per unit

 

reroll attack rolls of one (1) (or reroll attack roll/or one dice) this counts for all shocktroops arriving this phase

 

Open Blade cost * per unit

 

reroll ones (1) to run (or reroll run roll)

 

Edit:

 

Exemplars of War: 4" advance movement

Flawless Execution: Proposition 2 (Kais Klip) - LA: Flawless Execution: Once per turn, you may consecutively activate a second, different unit to fight before your opponent. 

(had the same idea)

Martial Pride: Charakters have to attack the nearest monster or charakter if possible. If the enemy is slain you get a +1 LD in 6" if your charakter is slain you get a -1 LD in 6"

 

Sonic Shriekers: Enemy units get a - 1 to hit in 6"

 

Phoenix Spear: Str +1 AP -2 to hit of 6 cause mortal wound

 

The Cacophony: Range 36" Str 6 AP -1 heavy 2 Ignores Cover, bearer is slain on hit rolls of 1, enemy unit gets -2 morale

 

Phoenix Terminator Squad:

 

M* WS 2+ BS 3+ S 4 T 4 W 2 A 2/3 LD 7/8 Sv 2+/*++

* Depends on armour used

 

Sudden strike reroll 1s to hit

Living Icon: +1 LD in 6"

 

 

Palatine Blade:

 

M 6 WS 2+ BS 3+ S 4 T 4 W 1 A2/3 LD 7/8 Sv 2+

 

Blademaster: 6++ in CC

 

Chosen Warriors: must attack the closest enemy  none vehicle unit with the highest PR if possible

 

Charnable Sabre: Str. user AP - Rolls of 6 cause a mortal wound

 

Kakophoni

 

M 6 WS 3+ BS 3+ S 4 T 4 W 1 A 1 LD 8 Sv. 3+/6++


Edited by Snook, 06 June 2017 - 02:47 AM.

C&C is always appreciated!

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#13
Kais Klip

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Medals. Medals and double rations of wine for all of you. Allow me to digest what you've written, I can't thank you enough for your effort though o7 

 

Edit: 

 

How about these for Legion-Specific Command Abilities

 

Dark Angels:

Beast Slayer: +1 to any To Wound roll (CP)

 

Emperor's Children:

Dedicated: Maximum Advance for One Unit (1CP)

Perfect Timing: Maximum Charge for One Unit (2CP)

Exemplary Marksmanship: One unit gets +1 to Hit (1CP)

 

Iron Warriors:

Weapons Up: One unit uses their normal To Hit for Overwatch (2CP)

Fury of the IVth Legion: One unit may shoot an additional time during any action (3CP)

 

White Scars: 

Jink: Select a unit, that unit is hit on a -1 by all shooting during this turn (2CP)

The Zao: Entire force may advance its maximum and still declare assault, automatically charging the maximum distance (3CP)

 

Space Wolves:

Woof: Change any roll for Advance to its maximum (1 CP)

Bark: Change any roll for Charging to its maximum (1CP)

Woof & Bark: Do both of the above, just like the White Scars. Don't tell the White Scars. (3CP)

Totally-not-the-Blood-God's-Favour: May automatically deny any psychic power this turn. (2CP)

 

Imperial Fists: 

INCOOOMING: Cover gives an additional +1 armour save bonus to your force this turn. (2CP)

 

Night Lords: 

We Have Come for You: Pick an enemy unit engaged in close combat, their battleshock roll becomes a 6. (3CP)

A Blade That Sharpens With Use: Every single enemy unit immediately makes a battleshock test at +2. (1CP)

The Scream: Your enemy may not overwatch this turn. (2CP)

 

Blood Angels: 

Angelic Host: All non-<Blood Angel> units in the force ignore battleshock tests this turn (2CP)

 

Iron Hands: 

The Flesh is Weak: Ignore all AP modifications for this turn (3CP).

 

World Eaters: 

Warlord of Nuceria: The opponent may not use a Command Ability this turn. (1CP)

Blood for the Blood God: A unit may make one additional close combat attack. (1CP)

The Crimson Path: Casualties from Overwatch this turn get to make their attacks before being removed (1CP). 

 

Ultramarines: 

Ordered Withdrawal: After falling back from a unit, a unit with the <Legion> and <Ultramarines> keywords may fire its weapons in the shooting phase. 

Covering Fire: As long as an enemy unit has been targeted by a shooting attack, it cannot fire Overwatch next turn. (1CP)

Courage and Honour: May replace all models lost to battleshock the previous turn. (3CP)

 

Death Guard: 

Barbarran Tread: Your force ignores dangerous terrain checks this turn (1CP). 

Barbarran Flesh: That damage roll against your character becomes 1 (3CP). 

 

Thousand Sons: [I do not dabble in sorcery]

 

Sons of Horus: 

Eye-to-Eye: Ignore distance limitation for "Deep Strike" this turn (3CP)

Call Off Your Wolves: Pick an enemy unit engaged in close combat, their battleshock roll this turn becomes a 6.

 

Word Bearers: 

Dark Portents: Deny the enemy any re-roll. (1CP)

Titus' Damnation: Increase/Decrease any unit's characteristic by X for this turn, that unit suffers X Mortal Wounds at the end of the turn. The unit selected may belong to your enemy (xCP).

 

Salamanders: 

Burning BurnFire: Each flamer in your force hits the maximum amount of targets, all <melta> weapons deal the maximum amount of damage (2CP).

 

Raven Guard: 

Decapitation Strike: Your units may target a character this turn irrespective of his position (3CP) 

Precision Strike: -1 to the opponent's saving roll (1CP)

 

Alpha Legion:

 

We are Legion: Your opponent selects a model in his force. That model becomes a character under your control, counting as having charged its parent unit if it was part of one. (3CP)

The Harrowing: Deny the enemy a reinforcement of your choice from coming onto the board this turn. (3CP)

Mutable Tactics: Activate any Legion-Specific Command Ability (XCP) of your choice. (XCP + 3CP)


Edited by Kais Klip, 07 June 2017 - 01:09 AM.

"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin


#14
Kais Klip

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Dark Angels
Mastery of the Blade: Units with this rule gain -1 AP with Melee weapons when fighting a model with equal or lower Weapon Skill. (I despise the current weapon dependent version for many reasons)
 

 

Why? I thought the DA rules were rather elegant and creative; they are blade masters. Knights in pop culture are always armed with swords, as incorrect as it may be. EC are the ones that perfect every single type of weapon that they can. Either way, the dueling master slot is quite cramped as it is. 

 

I'd rather the DA forget the whole weapon-mastery thing and focus on their historic Stubborn. These are the Emperor's firstborns, they were the first to take to the stars and they held the line while writing the book about Unprecendented, facing unimaginable horrors in order to create a safe play area for the other 19. 


"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin


#15
ArbitorIan

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Yo!

Really good work, guys. A few of us over at the Heresy 30k forums had a similar idea, and it's great to find other people doing the same thing. Handily, we've actually started at the opposite end, compiling all the general 'age of darknes supplement' stuff and porting over generic legion units into a FW-style document, while you seem to have started with all the legion-specific stuff.

http://heresy30k.inv...e-4#entry190731

How would you feel about combining ideas/reposting some of this on H30k/folding all our ideas together?

We're aiming to have a FW-style legiones astartes list ready as soon as we get our hands on the IA Index books.

Edited by ArbitorIan, 06 June 2017 - 08:04 AM.

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#16
Apologist

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Apologist: I actually really like your proposal, care to get us started on Legion Unique command abilities? I really enjoyed what 40k did with combat doctrines, however I did think it was a waste that they were only one-use. The difficulty comes in making things different to the Guard order system, but I don't see how that would be a problem if each legion had a few unique "call-in" abilities. 

 

Effectively, my suggestion is to get rid of the Legion specific rules, in line with 8th's simple, clean approach to special rules, and replace them with a far more extensive list of Command Abilities, which effectively replicate them.

 

This may sound a bit pointless, but the advantage is that you can then use the built-in points cost to balance them, and to encourage the taking of certain units.

 

So, for example, take two sample armies. The first is an Emperor's Children, the second Iron Warriors. Both forces are identical aside from the <Legion> keywords, but would have access to their own list of Command Abilities.

 

To take Kais Klip's suggestions as examples; the Emperor's Children list includes:

Flawless Execution (1CP): This unit makes a 4" consolidation move, instead of 3". 

Martial Pride (3CP): Once per turn, you may consecutively activate a second, different unit to fight before your opponent. 
 

The 'meh' and 'OP?' concerns Klip himself noted can be ameliorated with pricing.

 

Similarly for the Iron Warriors:

Wrack: (1CP): This unit automatically passes battleshock tests if any casualties were caused by shooting this turn.

Ruin: (1CP): Grenades used by this unit can re-roll to wound against units with keyword 'vehicle' or 'structure'.
 

Negative ones would be additional, cheap options for the opponent:

To the Bitter End (1CP): You may extend the game by one turn (to a maximum of X).

 

+ Hold on, that makes my army worse! +

Yes, changing automatic stuff – like Wrack & Ruin's auto-passing morale checks from shooting – to paid-for effects seems to be a downgrade. I believe that it would give three advantages to make up for this:

1) It gives you the choice when your troops do something exceptional; and allows for big cinematic actions by spending lots of CP.

2) It creates an additional level of tactical complexity while reducing complication (i.e. there's no need for you or your opponent to remember unit special rules).

3) Army structure can be guided by access to CP.

 

+ Theoretical +

On this third point, it allows the Force Organisation charts to replace Rites of War; simplifying things and making them less restrictive. This way, you can take a Recon Company as currently envisioned – getting a big CP bonus if you take three Recon Squads, for example – or you can sacrifice a lot of CPs by adding in things you don't want (like the single option Force Org in the main rules of 8th, that reduces your CP total by -1)

 

On a smaller level, it allows you to encourage use of characterful units – taking a Legion Tactical Squad would provide 2CPs, making it full-size would provide a further 2CPs. Taking the more rare or unusual units wouldn't: reflecting the fact that the army is less familiar with them. This would encourage the use of armies as they're shown in the background – lots of troops, for example – without penalising exceptional cases.

 

As an example, jetbikes might provide +1CP when taken as a choice in a normal army, but in a Sky Hunter Phalanx, they'd provide +2CP per choice. In an Iron Warriors Ironfire Force org, they might be -1CP; while in a White Scars Chogorian Brotherhood Force org, they might be +6CP if all troops choices are filled with them (on top of the basic +1CP you get for taking them.

 

This is especially helpful for balancing Legion specific units. Ultramarine Suzereins are a popular choice, so you might make them provide just 1CP (or even 0CP); while Locutarus squads are less popular, so you might make them provide 2CP.

 

 

+ Practical +

Some Legion/unit specific rules are easy to translate across, while others require a bit more forethought. However, the additional palette of 'rules crunch' this opens up is very useful.

 

To summarise, the use of Command Abilities would replace both the Legion-specific rules and the Rites of War rules. It could even replace and simplify a lot of the unit-specific rules.

 

As an illustration, taking Emperor's Children as your army would give you:

  • Basic Command Abilities – the standard ones available to all Legions.
  • Legion-specific Command Abilities – those available to the Emperor's Children, mainly based on existing Leigon special rules
  • If you select your army from the Maru Skara (currently a Legion specific Rite of War) Force Organisation chart, you would have access to further Command Abilities unique to that.
  • If you select your army from the Pride of the Legion Force Organisation chart, you would have access to further Command Abilities unique to that.

Kais Klip's list of Command Abilities is a great example of additional options that can either be built into the Legion-specific options, or the Force Org options.

 

To take another example, the Alpha Legion now no longer need a relatively clunky mechanic to use other Legions' stuff – instead, they might now have access to other Legions' units more generally – but with a hefty negative CP modifier, meaning that they're less effective on the field owing to a low number of CPs to actually use.

 

A Force Org specific to the Alpha Legion might give them access to loads of unique Command Abilities; so if you want to take a pure Alpha Legion force (rather than relying on a gimmick), you get rewarded for it.

 

Another Force Org might mean that they lose all their unique Command Abilities, and instead have the option of using the other Legions Command Abilities at a slight increase in cost.

 

 

+ Summary +

Basically, strip out all the unit and Legion special rules, and replace them with a real sense of Command and Control by providing CPs liberally through army selection, but forcing players to use them to gain the benefits. I believe this would make the Legions simultaneously more similar and more characterful. 

 

Picture the armies we mentioned earlier fighting. Currently, the Iron Warriors rules means that the IVth simply don't flee from shooting. My proposed change would mean that they won't flee from shooting, but only as long as you're prepared (or able) to spend your 'Legion resources'. This adds an additional level of granularity and tactical choice, as well as simulating the fatigue of war: 

 

If, by the end of the game, the Emperor's Children have been able to deplete the Iron Warrior commanders' reserve (by forcing him to do stuff), the Iron Warriors will potentially lose even their iron nerve and flee from shooting. Similarly, if the Emperor's Children over-reach themselves, they'll not have sufficient CP at the end of the game to keep up their relentless speed.

 

Perhaps the Emperor's Children player decides not to use their Legion-specific choices, instead relying on the tried-and-true options of the basic CP list – giving a rather neat way of playing Unification Wars/pre-Primarch games without any additional work or effort. 

 

So, there's my proposal – I realise it's a different direction, and would require quite a bit of work. I do think that starting from a clean slate would better reflect the changes and philosophy of 8th by making the game simpler, and giving players back the power to make decisions, rather than relying on the exceptionalism of their army list. It would also give Age of Darkness games an additional levels of depth and interest without adding complication or demanding the opponent's familiarity, resulting in a fairer game that better reflects the background.


Edited by Apologist, 06 June 2017 - 01:34 PM.

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#17
Apologist

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Coo, that was a bit of a wall o'text, and probably a bit dense. Let me be more specific, using the Emperor's Children from my earlier example. 

 

The army is made up as follows:

  • A Praetor, a Centurion, a Chaplain, two 15-man Legion Tactical squads, one 20-man Legion Tactical squads, a squad of Legion Veterans, a squad of Palatine Blades, a squad of Cataphract Terminators, a squad of jetbikes and two Land Raiders.

The standard (proposed for this example) Age of Darkness force org chart is:

  • Compulsory: 1 HQ, 4 Troops, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack, 1 Heavy Support
  • Optional: +2HQ, +4 Troops, +3 Elites, +2 Fast Attack, +2 Heavy Support

Taking this chart would provide 6CP if the Compulsories are filled, and an additional 3 if the Optional are also filled.

 

I'd envision that working like this:

  • HQ: Praetor (-1CP); Centurion (+1CP), Chaplain (0CP)
  • Troops: 15-man squad (+2CP), 15-man squad (+2CP), 20-man squad (+3CP), Legion Veterans (0CP)
  • Elites: Palatine Blades (+1CP), Cataphract Terminators (0CP)
  • Fast Attack: Jetbikes (0CP)
  • Heavy Support: Land Raider Proteus (1CP), Land Raider Achilles (-1CP)

(Please bear in mind that these numbers are just top-of-the-head working)

 

This army would thus provides 8CP, plus the 6 you get for filling the Compulsory boxes in the Age of Darkness Force Org chart (there's a big incentive to fill them), for a total of 14. 

 

The army has access to the following Stratagems, which (for this example) is:

  • Command re-roll (as per 8th edition) [plus any other 'generic' Strategems that you'd wish to add] granted by using the Age of Darkness force org chart.
  • Exemplars of War and Flawless Execution (the effects of these still to be determined) by virtue of being Emperor's Children.
  • Insane Bravery (as per 8th edition), granted by selecting the Legion-specific Palatine Blades. 
  • ...and potentially unique Strategems granted by certain units – Primarchs and HQs like the Herald, Praetor, Master of Signal etc. would be great ways of adding flavourful Strategems.

The enemy gains Martial Pride as an option – this is, essentially, a Strategem free to them that represents the Emperor's Childrens' known weakness.

 

Note that there are no generic Strategems available – you have to fit at least one Force Org (or take certain units) if you want any.

 

Using this example you can see that the presence of the Palatine Blades now bolsters the army – reflecting that the Legions' elites inspire their own forces. However, they provide no Command Points: the player is thus encouraged to take lots of 'generic' units, as they provide fuel for the specialists. In the list above, the Legion Tactical Squads give a huge amount of CP, while the Legion Veteran Tacticals do not. The rare Land Raider Achilles even counts against the total, reflecting that it's unfamiliar to the army, required the Praetor's political manipulation to get it assigned to his force, or similar reasons. 

 

Note that the HQs also affect this. The Centurion is a line officer, easy and attractive to field. The Chaplain is more specialist, and requires more (background) influence to field.

 

The Praetor – very common in current lists – should be rarely seen in background terms, and so is given a negative CP rating. You can take him, but it requires (background) influence. This is part of the reason that I thought Strategems unique to certain HQs would be a way to sugar the pill. While taking a Praetor will reduce your ability to apply Stratagems (as you've used your influence in making sure he abandons his other duties to fight with you), he does provide additional options – perhaps something to do with influencing reserves or similar.

 

Compare with a fairly typical  army you tend to see:

HQ: Praetor (-1CP); Chaplain (0CP)
Troops: Legion Veterans (0CP), Legion Veterans (0CP)
Elites: Palatine Blades (+1CP), Cataphract Terminators (0CP)
Fast Attack: Jetbikes (0CP)
Heavy Support: Land Raider Achilles (-1CP), Land Raider Achilles (-1CP)

 

Here, by taking a list that doesn't particularly reflect the general background, the player would end up with a negative CP rating if using the Age of Darkness force org chart, granting the opponent a bonus CP. He/she would also have access to fewer Strategems.

 

Now, it's not for me to determine how peoples' armies should look – and the list above looks like a great Pride of the Legion list, so taking that as the Force Org might look like this:

 

Compulsory: 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 2 Elite
Optional: +2HQ, +4 Troops, +4 Elites, +3 Fast Attack, +3 Heavy Support

This would provide 6CP for the Compulsories and an additional 3 if filled completely.

However, instead of the Rites of War giving special rules, the charts instead simply alters the CP rating of certain units:

  • Praetors, Terminators and Veteran Legion Tacticals [etc.] become +1CP
  • Centurions, Legion Tactical Squads, Rhinos [etc.] become 0CP

Here, the same list...

HQ: Praetor (+1CP); Chaplain (0CP)
Troops: Legion Veterans (+1CP), Legion Veterans (+1CP)
Elites: Palatine Blades (+1CP), Cataphract Terminators (+1CP)
Fast Attack: Jetbikes (0CP)
Heavy Support: Land Raider Achilles (-1CP), Land Raider Achilles (-1CP)

 

...gives a total of 9CP – not as much as the standard Age of Darkness Force Org, but not bad. Note that the Force Org rules mean that people can't 'cheekily' chuck in a Legion Tactical Squad to squeeze in lots of juicy CP; their decision to take the Pride of the Legion provides as much stick as it does carrot.

 

To take a third example, imagine a very odd list – something that really bends the background – and it'll demonstrate that you can take exactly what you want, but you'll be extremely limited in terms of the 'Command and Control' aspect, as you'll only have those Strategems granted by the Legion or units you choose – and very few CP with which to apply them. In fact, if you take a weird enough list, then you'll effectively be granting your opponent an advantage, as negative ones transfer to him. 

 

+++

So, given those specific examples, you can see how this encourages armies that follow the background (though herein lies the hard work of balancing them properly) while still allowing the option for more unusual builds.

 

It also eliminates the need for 'rules retention' – i.e. if you've never used a Pride of the Legion force, you don't need to keep special rules in mind as you play. This also avoids the other player having to remember anything about your army during play (so they don't find out after the game that they could have won if they'd just killed that last Terminator and triggered the special rule from the Rite of War, for example); it's all organically built into the available Strategems and CP.

 

Finally, it gets rid of a lot of bloat. FW did a wonderful job of improving 7th edition by bolting things on, but I think that was rather forced on the developers. Rather than taking the 'bolted-on' parts off 7th and sticking them on to the 8th edition rules as-is, you have an opportunity to instead take the concepts behind those additions and adapt them to the core simplicity of 8th – i.e. to streamline the mechanics of the old rules, while retaining the character and intent.

 

+++


Edited by Apologist, 06 June 2017 - 02:13 PM.

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#18
depthcharge12

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Sons of Horus will be difficult because of death dealers and combi weapons. Seekers alone now (I mean they are going to need a massive points hike) can fire their AP2 bolt round and plasma every turn in conjunction. The death dealers rule, ceteris paribus, would cancel out the -1 to hit when using both at the same time.


Merciless fighters: Everytime a SoH unit in the fight phase rolls a 6 to hit, they gain an automatic extra hit with their wargear.

(This can be deadly, but also simplifies the rule so much more)

Death Dealers: When a SoH unit advances, they ignore the to hit penalty when also firing an assault weapon. This also allows any SoH unit with a pistol (type) weapon to fire it after advancing as well without penalty.

(Since we have yet to see anything above BS5 this edition for simplicity, let's make this a rule for a legion that's always advancing toward their enemy and reward that. Eye to eye with the enemy)
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Sons of Horus painting log (3000+ points & Horus)

http://www.bolterand...rus-plog-horus/


Scars of Rangdan, Dark Angels Legion:

http://www.bolterand...79#entry4575179

#19
Kais Klip

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Yo!
Really good work, guys. A few of us over at the Heresy 30k forums had a similar idea, and it's great to find other people doing the same thing. Handily, we've actually started at the opposite end, compiling all the general 'age of darknes supplement' stuff and porting over generic legion units into a FW-style document, while you seem to have started with all the legion-specific stuff.http://heresy30k.inv...e-4#entry190731
How would you feel about combining ideas/reposting some of this on H30k/folding all our ideas together?
We're aiming to have a FW-style legiones astartes list ready as soon as we get our hands on the IA Index books.


Absolutely, I'd like to have as much peer review and input as possible in this, as you can see with Apologist, some people can come up with genius from an angle you never even considered. I made an account for H30 way back for the alpha legion release in Book III, I'll pop my head up by the end of the day. I would appreciate if you could give credit where it's due, especially for certain ideas of tangible creativity, so let's probably ask the guys here before we ctr+c their stuff.

Apologist, I'm absolutely on-board with your CP idea. I still believe there is a necessity for atleast one passive ability, given that CPs, and therefore your army's character, will not be utilised two turns in a row.

I do, however, believe CPs are the way to go; 8th edition seems to be a very card game act-react type of deal, which is awesome, as we finally have some actual tactics to hinge on the value of the dice gods. The more CPs bounce off each other the better.

Let's make the Command Points - army leadership - a phase in itself worthy of consideration.

I do however, really really really like your CP unit tax for certain Requisition-heavy units, shall we say. Defo adds a further depth to the game without adding any more rules. Thinking Action and Reactiom is definitely the way to go here.

I never realised I wanted all this, now I'm getting quite exited for 8th.

Edited by Kais Klip, 06 June 2017 - 03:33 PM.

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"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin


#20
Apologist

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If you'd like to develop this, I'd suggest starting in a limited way - perhaps by making an expansion for 8th that allows you to focus on three or four Legions (exactly as FW themselves did), would be the best way to focus.

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#21
ArbitorIan

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Absolutely, I'd like to have as much peer review and input as possible in this, as you can see with Apologist, some people can come up with genius from an angle you never even considered. I made an account for H30 way back for the alpha legion release in Book III, I'll pop my head up by the end of the day. I would appreciate if you could give credit where it's due, especially for certain ideas of tangible creativity, so let's probably ask the guys here before we ctr+c their stuff.
 

 

Great, well if people are happy for us to fold these all into one big project, or include their work in the document we're prepping, please let me know!

My (personal) take on the Command Points listed above, just my initial 2p:

- I really like the idea that the Statagems are used as a way to flavour the Legions, and the FOCs are used as the equivalent to Rites of War, its a really elegant way of doing things.

 

- What would we do about Rites that don't actually change force selection? Maybe we don't need them and the general number of Rites diminishes, given that Stratagems do so much.

- That being said, it's one thing to have the standard couple of Mission-based Stratagems, and then a couple more Legion-based ones. It's quite another to end up in a game with three Mission Stratagems, two mission ones, three or four extra ones because of the units you've chosen, PLUS a couple more from the enemy's army. When that becomes the case, you've suddenly got a deck of 10-15 cards you're playing from (you'd NEED cards to keep track of what you've used) and it becomes a very different game. In line with the general simplification of 40k 8ed, I'm not sure I'd like to play that level of X-wing-like card game.

- In addition, i think you still need a couple of really basic Legion special rules, mostly because at low points values (with low CPs), you still want the armies to feel different.

 

- The system of giving squads CPs based on fluffiness feels like the sort of thing to offer as an appendix/extra, much like in the different 'styles of play' - again, it's kinda a whole other bolt-on you'd need to consider at army building. I'm just generally wary of ending up with a really complex game system where you'd turn up to a game only to be stomped by someone who had a whole deck of special abilities and a maximised ton of CPs from the way the army was built.


I haven't gone through this with the other guys on H30k so I don't want to put words in their mouths, but it seems like the 'design philosophy' for us so far has been:

- Port over all units from their closest equivalents in 40k if possible, using the Heresy lists as a guide for weapons options and squad building - this way we're working from 'proven' playtested GW rules, but trying to make sure people can still field their army!
- If you need to change a rule that doesn't work any more, pick the closest existing 8ed rule if possible.
- If something has tons of rules and some of them don't work, just drop some. Make it simpler. Tons of special rules was part of the problem in 7ed.
 


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#22
Apologist

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That simplification is crucial, and I take your point about ending up with a surfeit of Strategems.

I'll have a little play around and throw up a purely Force Org/Strategem based concept worked on a limited number of Legions (three or four, maybe) to act as one possible route. If it ends up useful, brill. If not, it'll serve as a demonstration of the limitations of the approach 🙂

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#23
Kais Klip

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@ ArbitorIan You have my blessing to port over the stuff we come up with here, however I'll ask you to allow me a few days to consolidate the first couple of drafts; we haven't even pinned down what exactly people are in favor of or not. I'd like us to burn in the trials of peer review first, if you will. 

 

I'd also like to embrace Apologist's suggestion of cutting this down into manageable chunks, but I have a rather round-about way of approaching that; 

 

I would personally be willing to represent the Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Alpha Legion. I have significant motivation in making sure they are represented correctly, and would be willing to act as the final judge on what we go for or not for these legions. I would also be able to add Ultramarines to the mix, although at a caveat that I am quite unhappy with their current portrayal by FW, so I would appreciate someone else taking on the mantle of Ultramar for them, as it were. 

 

We still require representatives for the other 14 Legions, I'd like to consider B&C members first, but failing that there is no reason for 30kHeresy chaps not to step in to hold their banners. 

 

I would particularly like to hear from people who weren't particular fans of how 7th edition represented their Legion, so the more chaps like Jaxom pipe in, the better. I would definitely like to have a naysayer for everything we do, I think that's the best way to approach balancing these things. 

 

Finally, what we're dealing with here, or what I'd rather deal with, is the qualitative aspect of the Legions, rather than the quantitative. If you boys at 30kHeresy want to deal with the stats and unit profiles, I'm all happy with that. I would appreciate if you coordinate with Apologist though, regarding his generic force organisation set-ups and the stuff he's covered so far. 


"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin


#24
jaxom

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We still require representatives for the other 14 Legions, I'd like to consider B&C members first, but failing that there is no reason for 30kHeresy chaps not to step in to hold their banners. 

 

I would particularly like to hear from people who weren't particular fans of how 7th edition represented their Legion, so the more chaps like Jaxom pipe in, the better. I would definitely like to have a naysayer for everything we do, I think that's the best way to approach balancing these things. 

 

Sounds good to me and glad to help.

 

 

 

 

Dark Angels
Mastery of the Blade: Units with this rule gain -1 AP with Melee weapons when fighting a model with equal or lower Weapon Skill. (I despise the current weapon dependent version for many reasons)
 

 

Why? I thought the DA rules were rather elegant and creative; they are blade masters. Knights in pop culture are always armed with swords, as incorrect as it may be. EC are the ones that perfect every single type of weapon that they can. Either way, the dueling master slot is quite cramped as it is. 

 

I'd rather the DA forget the whole weapon-mastery thing and focus on their historic Stubborn. These are the Emperor's firstborns, they were the first to take to the stars and they held the line while writing the book about Unprecendented, facing unimaginable horrors in order to create a safe play area for the other 19. 

 

 

The inconsistency with statements along the lines that Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing Knights (specifically those with corvus hammers) fight armed like the knights of Caliban, but don't use swords. Could it be explained? Yes, but it isn't and with a slew of other similar issues that would just derail this  thread I am not a fan of the current state of the Dark Angels legion. I completely agree with your second statement.

 

I'm thinking: focus on the Stubborn aspect and monster killing. The monster killing stems from two things. First, the Order were monster slayers first-and-foremost under The Lion what with the whole Great Beast Extinction campaign. Second, the First Legion had a specialty of xenos genocide campaigns (cough Rangdan Xenocide cough). Both components of what would become the Dark Angels were great at killing monsters that most others couldn't deal with.

 

Here's all my thinking, but feel free to skip to the meat of things.

Spoiler

 

TL;DR

 

Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)

Bring Them Down: The Dark Angels excel at felling monstrous creatures and foul xenos the likes of which could not be imagined. Units with this rule gain +1 Damage when they roll a 6+ To Hit and automatically pass Morale checks when engaged with a unit with the Monster keyword.

Hexagrammaton: The Dark Angels have a parallel organizational structure originating with the Emperor's personal deployment of them at the end of the Unity Wars. Units with this rule that have the Character keyword must be assigned one of the following auras prior to deployment.

  • Deathwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" can re-roll dice results of one.
  • Ravenwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" can act normally after Fleeing. (A Character must also have either the Bike or Jetbike keyword to take this option)
  • Firewing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" automatically pass Morale checks.
  • Stormwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" gain +1 attack on the turn they Charge.
  • Dreadwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" can re-roll failed To Wound rolls.
  • Ironwing: Any auras the unit normally has affects Vehicles even if it normally would not and can effect them even if the unit is embarked.

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#25
Kais Klip

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We still require representatives for the other 14 Legions, I'd like to consider B&C members first, but failing that there is no reason for 30kHeresy chaps not to step in to hold their banners. 
 
I would particularly like to hear from people who weren't particular fans of how 7th edition represented their Legion, so the more chaps like Jaxom pipe in, the better. I would definitely like to have a naysayer for everything we do, I think that's the best way to approach balancing these things.

 
Sounds good to me and glad to help.
 
 

Dark Angels
Mastery of the Blade: Units with this rule gain -1 AP with Melee weapons when fighting a model with equal or lower Weapon Skill. (I despise the current weapon dependent version for many reasons)

 
Why? I thought the DA rules were rather elegant and creative; they are blade masters. Knights in pop culture are always armed with swords, as incorrect as it may be. EC are the ones that perfect every single type of weapon that they can. Either way, the dueling master slot is quite cramped as it is. 
 
I'd rather the DA forget the whole weapon-mastery thing and focus on their historic Stubborn. These are the Emperor's firstborns, they were the first to take to the stars and they held the line while writing the book about Unprecendented, facing unimaginable horrors in order to create a safe play area for the other 19.
 
The inconsistency with statements along the lines that Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing Knights (specifically those with corvus hammers) fight armed like the knights of Caliban, but don't use swords. Could it be explained? Yes, but it isn't and with a slew of other similar issues that would just derail this  thread I am not a fan of the current state of the Dark Angels legion. I completely agree with your second statement.
 
I'm thinking: focus on the Stubborn aspect and monster killing. The monster killing stems from two things. First, the Order were monster slayers first-and-foremost under The Lion what with the whole Great Beast Extinction campaign. Second, the First Legion had a specialty of xenos genocide campaigns (cough Rangdan Xenocide cough). Both components of what would become the Dark Angels were great at killing monsters that most others couldn't deal with.
 
Here's all my thinking, but feel free to skip to the meat of things.
Spoiler

 
TL;DR
 
Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)
Bring Them Down: The Dark Angels excel at felling monstrous creatures and foul xenos the likes of which could not be imagined. Units with this rule gain +1 Damage when they roll a 6+ To Hit and automatically pass Morale checks when engaged with a unit with the Monster keyword.
Hexagrammaton: The Dark Angels have a parallel organizational structure originating with the Emperor's personal deployment of them at the end of the Unity Wars. Units with this rule that have the Character keyword must be assigned one of the following auras prior to deployment.
  • Deathwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" can re-roll dice results of one.
  • Ravenwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" can act normally after Fleeing. (A Character must also have either the Bike or Jetbike keyword to take this option)
  • Firewing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" automatically pass Morale checks.
  • Stormwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" gain +1 attack on the turn they Charge.
  • Dreadwing: Units with the LA(Dark Angel) rule within 6" can re-roll failed To Wound rolls.
  • Ironwing: Any auras the unit normally has affects Vehicles even if it normally would not and can effect them even if the unit is embarked.

There's a Like button, and then there's a Like button. This is honestly brilliant mate, and you've completely sold me on the monster-hunter aspect, and more importantly it's representation. I doubt FW could ever point to something as comprehensive as this as backup for their write-ups. I'm psyched with the air of legitimacy this all lends us. I will Ctrl+C first thing in the morning, seems to me that's Dark Angels done. Mad reps Jaxom.
  • Snook likes this

"Sire! We are yours and you are ours,                       "The Wolves are coming! How they bleat and moan our names, pissing themselves like animals, thinking our blood chills with the mere wave of their axes.

'Til the stars burn out,                                                   What do they know of war? They hold no technology, no stratagem nor ruse we have not yet met and bettered. In every way, we are superior.

And our eyes do not recognise the skies,                    Save for one. The Emperor does not make mistakes; for all their failings, all their misgivings, all their inadequacies... the Savage holds strength in his
Not unlike each other's hearts,                                        weakness. Savagery, depravity, barbarism. To their breasts, they hold stratagems of the basest kind. Will we let these blows land unparried?
'Til we are lone against the tide,                                  We will not set aside our pride. Of all the Legions, we deserve. Who else has been laid so treacherously low, yet still rose to the paradigm of glory?

My brothers, rage!                                                          Our pride is like a weighted blade; a sword with no heft nor burden, cuts poorly and shatters mid-blow. 
Against that dying of the light,                                     But we must set aside our honour. We must cast off our reservations. We must muddy our cloaks in this coming fight. We must use the hilt as 

So into the jaws of death,                                              much as the blade. We must delve into the matter of the savage, and raise it too into perfection. There is little point to them, brothers. Only one purpose
And out the other side!                                                   for which they exist. Take that away, show them that even in that we are better, and the Wolf King and his pups will be broken." 

++ Under Censure ++ Clicky: Star Wars vs 30k                                                                                                                                - IIIrd Legion Treatise, On Hunting Wolves, Lord Commander Konstantin






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