Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[Gothical]

I have always like a good-sized BSS unit, but then my army was mostly for Cities of Death where that was far more viable. These days my mind is unchanged, and I think is is more viable - they are cheaper, template weapons are less deadly (no more Battle Cannon wiping out 1/2 a squad in one hit), Cover helps far more, and the Acts of Faith are stunning. In cover they will have a 2+ Save. With 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer charging them is a risky prospect (average 10 hits) and gives them some great oomph on the offensive too with Divine Guidance (double-firing 12 Bolters and 3 Flamers). Throw in a Priest and they get 2A each and can fight engaging units out-of-phase with The Passion - between that and a Pistol volley in your shooting phase you might clear the squad off before the opponent can attack). They can move quickly and even revive models with the other Acts. Put a Canoness nearby for re-rolling 1s To Hit and those Act-boosted ranged/melee attacks get very nasty. 

 

I am almost temtped by 2 units, with the centre anchored by a Canoness, Celestians and a Hospitaller or two - that way the Characters can send any wounds the opponent manages to put on them off to the Celestians, who can then be revived by a combination of Acts and Hospitallers.

 

Generally speaking, Mech is still king, especially for Dominions, Retributors and Repentia, and given the increase in costs of vehicles there may not be points in the list for large infantry squads. At the same time, as objectives are determined by number of models, large foot squads can support MSU mech squads well.

 

I do quite like the sound of 5-strong squads with 2 Stormbolters and a Heavy Bolter, alongside an Immolator with Twin Heavy Bolters. It gives you a small firebase with a lot of anti-infantry firepower that can then mount up to go objective hunting later in the game - they're especially great for occupying a Fortification to allow you to pick the targets for its weapons, and can deter units getting close with a surprising amount of shots at short range with Divine Guidance.

 

Generally speaking, I think I would prefer to give Dominions Meltaguns and Retributors Heavy Flamers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the opposite setups, and quad-MM Retributors firing twice are going to be a nightmare for stuff like Knights, but the Dominions have movement bonuses that suit having Assault-typed weapons, and the increase in Strength and AP of the Heavy Flamer versus the regular Flamer will make firing them twice absolutely lethal - 9.3 dead Marines versus 4.7).

 

Still not sure what to favour on Seraphim, both special pistols seem very useful in their quick-strike/harassment role. Divine Guidance makes both options really appealing, 8D6 auto-hits is going to hurt even at S3, while 8 Inferno Pistol shots gives them killer punch against things like Terminators and Monsters/Vehicles.

 

Otherwise, Seraphim are brilliant. Support a unit or two with Celestine and you can really frustrate the opponent: shoot them, charge them to deny them the option of shooting, in your next turn Fall Back and repeat the process thanks to the Fly keyword, kept relatively safe with 3+ Save and 5++ re-rollable Shield of Faith save.

 

Oh, you can also be a complete   and use the Act of Faith to give Seraphim a 24"+2D6 charge to completely envelop a transport containing a powerful unit (say Land Raider with Centurions/Terminators and Captian/Chapter Master in it). If the model is surrounded, it cannot Fall Back as it lacks the Fly keyword, cannot advance through your models, cannot deploy its passengers thanks to the Seraphim's base size, and is stuck fighting with its mighty WS6+ AP0 melee attacks (you can always revive any Seraphim that fall) - and its buddies cannot shoot the Seraphim either as they are in melee. Protect them from counter-attacks (why, hello Celestine!) and you can completely lock down hundreds of the opponents points without even doing any damage.

 

So excited to try all this on the tabletop 

[dracpanzer]

I am looking at the Outrider detachment, four melta Dom squads in Immos, two 5 girl sera squads with flamers, 5 hvy bolter rets, Celestine and two Geminae along with a Canoness with an eviscerator. Two 5 strong BSS in Immos leaves me enough for one Imagifer, one priest with an eviscerator and a PenEngine based off my Crusade Sisters force with some condemnors on the superiors.

 

Dropping the PenEngine would free up points for another HB Ret squad and a third squad of BSS, drop the BSS immos to rhinos and all three would be mech. PenEngine for fun, or third BSS?

[CaptainHelion]

I think throwing around a few Inquisitors and Priests is a solid way of helping out our leadership woes. Being able to use Leadership 10 is gonna really help larger squads, and it makes a 5 sister squad all but immune to running. 

[Atrus]

I've been contemplating throwing HB Rets behind a defence line with quad gun and an Imagifier. Not sure what this is going to be points wise but it sounds good in my head. 12 HB shots maybe a storm bolter on vet just because, throw a spare ret on the quadgun. Full squad throwing out 12 s5 shots, 6 s4 shots and 8 s7 shots at 24". Double fire f4om that is going to be quite punishing.

 

Just for so.ething different I'd like to try my anti horde role as being a unit of 6 arcos in a flamer immolator. Faith move the immo with an Imagifier (until GW brings out official written errata correcting their mistake of not getting proper sisters players in and spending less than half an hour concocting their rules and properly playtesting, they can....bitter bitter bitter...seriously how hard would it have been just to have in the AoF section "only units with the AoF special rule in their unit entry can utilise the AoF listed below")...

...anyways, faith move. Jump out 3"+6" then try for a long 2d6 charge. Or save for turn 2 charge. I'm thinking arcos with their 2d3 attacks each and a 2d6 auto hitting immolation flamer if going to make some short work of blobby units. The unit page i have is a little blurry on the wound stat for them- am i reading arcos right as having 2 wounds each?

 

Methinks Faith moving seraphim and Celestine is going to be a pretty staple manoeuvre for us.

 

That said. 2 squads of melta doms in a rhino vanguarding, big C fairing up beside them then faith moving the rhino with her auto (No errata dammit) doms are on the baddies starting line start of turn 1. Jump out 3+6" and suddenly that big scary stuff up the back is taking 10 melta shots in melta range to the face turn 1.

 

For the record, I wouldn't AoF vehicles. I can see the intention behind the rules- GW are just silly for not wording it right....okay I might try it once or twice just for fun....okay I might do it more than once or twice but seriously until there's official red word errata is it really wrong? I can take a shower after if I feel dirty.

[HoboAnarki]

With 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer charging them is a risky prospect (average 10 hits) 

 

Just remember that range applies to overwatch now, so with a big squad a smart opponent will probably be able to avoid some of the flamers, and anything that can charge 3d6" can probably charge from outside flamer range pretty reliably.

[Daimhin]

Oh, you can also be a complete   and use the Act of Faith to give Seraphim a 24"+2D6 charge to completely envelop a transport containing a powerful unit (say Land Raider with Centurions/Terminators and Captian/Chapter Master in it). If the model is surrounded, it cannot Fall Back as it lacks the Fly keyword, cannot advance through your models, cannot deploy its passengers thanks to the Seraphim's base size, and is stuck fighting with its mighty WS6+ AP0 melee attacks (you can always revive any Seraphim that fall) - and its buddies cannot shoot the Seraphim either as they are in melee. Protect them from counter-attacks (why, hello Celestine!) and you can completely lock down hundreds of the opponents points without even doing any damage.

 

I am definitely going to be doing this sort of thing. 

 

Even if all you do it throw 5 Seraphim at a full LR and stop it advancing for a full turn it's a great advantage. Particularly in smaller games, if someone has too many points sunk into one squad, locking it down in their deployment zone while you advance into cover/ onto objectives/ set up fire arcs is a huge benefit for you.

 

In most games I will probably take a squad of 5 Seraphim with no upgrades (55 points!) for the simple fact that they are so manoeuvrable and versatile that I can't imagine many games where they aren't useful.

[Gothical]

 

With 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer charging them is a risky prospect (average 10 hits) 

 

Just remember that range applies to overwatch now, so with a big squad a smart opponent will probably be able to avoid some of the flamers, and anything that can charge 3d6" can probably charge from outside flamer range pretty reliably.

 

 

That is very true, and worth pointing out. It does make charges for 2D6" units trickier, as the have to charge from >8" away to avoid the Flamers, meaning they need an 8 or more on the dice (to get within 1" of the squad, rather than b2b), which is somewhat risky - though initially I did think they would have to roll a 9 which made it more attractive still.

 

For 3D6 units, if you haven't been able to take them out (there are those that can suddenly arrive on the board by a variety of means, from Assassins springing up to Genestealers out a Trygon tunnel) at least we can use Repentia and Penitent Engines to either deter the charge in the first place, or to counter-attack hard.

[Gen.Steiner]

Seraphim are indeed very versatile. I'm not sure about putting arco-flagellants in an Immolator; I think they have to be Adepta Sororitas units to get in Sororitas Rhinos or Immolators.

I'm very excited about 8th Edition. I'm keen to get my Sisters out and kicking butt.

 

Currently my main issue is trying to work out how to get more Seraphim without bankrupting myself.

[Atrus]

Sororitas rhinos and immo can transport any Ministorum Infantry but can't transport Sororitas of a different order. So we can throw DCA, arcos and crusaders inside our

transports.

[Hod]

Sororitas rhinos and immo can transport any Ministorum Infantry but can't transport Sororitas of a different order. So we can throw DCA, arcos and crusaders inside our

transports.

 

I think so, because DCA, Arcos and Crusaders don't have the <Order> keyword on them, so the only part of the Rhinos and Immos keyword that pertains to them is the <Astra Ministorium>. I could be wrong though, that's just how I read it -- and I really hope that is the case (if not, you couldn't put a Priest in a transport with your Sisters, and that doesn't seem right).

 

 

I'm thinking of two Immos full of DCA, Arcos and Crusaders with Priests -- it just seems like a melee beast (maybe even include a Imagifer to try and get a second round of melee with everyone who lives through the disembark). I really like the combo of Arco's multiple wounds and the Crusader's invulnerable save for keeping the group alive.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Hod

[Gen.Steiner]

OOOOO ok that's cool, that opens up a load of opportunities to create Rhinos in Munitorum colours - all hymns and laud hailers and lunacy. Love it.

 

I'm going to take advantage of the Imperium faction thing to finally get my rear in gear and build up some Arbites to support my Sisters.

 

Also, tactics wise, I think a Rhino filled with arco-flagellents, a priest, and the crusader bodyguard would be nice to smash into a combat alongside some Repentia. Pricey though, but... brutal.

[KiwiBen]

Is anyone else really struggling to build lists?  I've got a 2000 point tourney coming up in July, and I'm trying to figure out what to take.  Trouble is, everything seems pretty cool.

 

I want double-firing Retributors + Imagifiers

 

I want Arco-Flagellants with a Priest (3D3 attacks each FTW!!)

 

I want Dominions

 

I want Penitent Engines

 

I want Exorcists

 

I also want to include heaps of Acolytes from the Inquistion dex, because having a whole mess of multi-wound dudes with Plasma guns for 21 points each seems awesome, and they re-roll hits and wounds vs all Psykers and Chaos (because of course they're Ordo Hereticus)

 

I also want as many command points as I can scrape together to use for re-rolls, which means more detachments, which means more HQ choices...

 

But by now I'm at 3000 points or so, and still don't have all the toys I want!

 

I never thought I'd be complaining about too many cool options as a Sisters player, but here we are.

[Ficinus]

So, flamers and heavy flamers are decent anti-aircraft weapons now.  You have to get close to them, but auto-hitting is potent.  Sure it doesn't make any sense, but, meh.

 

I ran some Death Cult Assassins with a Priest for support and they were deadly and surprisingly durable (though it was mostly a combination of luck and that they hit something that isn't the best combat unit). 5 attacks re-rolling hits is nasty.

 

Oh, and I think I'm going to have to start taking witches or something.  The ability to throw D3 wounds on Rhinos and Immolators on what is essentially a 2+ is just too good to ignore.  I'm thinking I'll probably take a psyker Inquisitor just to Deny the Witch.  The Iron Will power is just too weak to make up for the ability to Deny.

[Servant of Dante]

So, flamers and heavy flamers are decent anti-aircraft weapons now.  You have to get close to them, but auto-hitting is potent.  Sure it doesn't make any sense, but, meh.

 

I ran some Death Cult Assassins with a Priest for support and they were deadly and surprisingly durable (though it was mostly a combination of luck and that they hit something that isn't the best combat unit). 5 attacks re-rolling hits is nasty.

 

Oh, and I think I'm going to have to start taking witches or something.  The ability to throw D3 wounds on Rhinos and Immolators on what is essentially a 2+ is just too good to ignore.  I'm thinking I'll probably take a psyker Inquisitor just to Deny the Witch.  The Iron Will power is just too weak to make up for the ability to Deny.

You should know by now I have the same sentiment to share with anyone who talks about allying witches with Sisters

[sedibear]

Man, vehicles are legit.

 

The immolator with immolation flamer especially, it's a threat until it dies because it doesn't care about degrading BS.

[Atrus]

*sniff sniff* I smell heresy.

You could always invest in karamazov. I don't recall his rules (aside from no longer being able to blast enemies and allies D: ) but doesn't he make casting a bit more difficult for witches or denying easier now?

 

Flamers auto hit flyers? There's gotta be a thing somewhere about that surely? If not, flamer immo got a bit more nicerer.

[Servant of Dante]

Since I play pure Sisters . . . and 1 or 2 priests (meaning no Crusaders, DCA, Penitent Engines, or any non-Sororitas units), I was able to get basically everything I wanted into 2000 points :D

[Ficinus]

The Fliers just limit the to hit roll, which flamers ignore.  In order to prohibit flamers from targeting fliers, they would need to write a rule that specifically prohibited every weapon that is a flamer in all the different armies, which would be pretty insane.  I guess they could add a special rule to all flamer-type weapons calling them flame weapons and then allow fliers to ignore them, but they haven't done that.  It's crazy.

[Servant of Dante]

The Fliers just limit the to hit roll, which flamers ignore.  In order to prohibit flamers from targeting fliers, they would need to write a rule that specifically prohibited every weapon that is a flamer in all the different armies, which would be pretty insane.  I guess they could add a special rule to all flamer-type weapons calling them flame weapons and then allow fliers to ignore them, but they haven't done that.  It's crazy.

the Sisters finally got fed up with having no fliers for the faction and decided to make their flamers work against flyers :P

[Atrus]

Fear our Immo flamer spam! There is no hope, you cannot run; accept your firey fate!

[A.T.]

The Fliers just limit the to hit roll, which flamers ignore.  In order to prohibit flamers from targeting fliers, they would need to write a rule that specifically prohibited every weapon that is a flamer in all the different armies, which would be pretty insane.  I guess they could add a special rule to all flamer-type weapons calling them flame weapons and then allow fliers to ignore them, but they haven't done that.  It's crazy.

 

The logical thing would be to do what Forgeworld did with the old fliers - they are just treated as being 12" further away than they really are unless they are hovering or you are shooting at them with another flyer.

 

Stops people throwing grenades at them, hitting them with flamethrowers, and so on.

[Noeh]

I'll just have my knight King Kong them out of the sky AND THEN flamethrower them.

[taikishi]

 

The Fliers just limit the to hit roll, which flamers ignore.  In order to prohibit flamers from targeting fliers, they would need to write a rule that specifically prohibited every weapon that is a flamer in all the different armies, which would be pretty insane.  I guess they could add a special rule to all flamer-type weapons calling them flame weapons and then allow fliers to ignore them, but they haven't done that.  It's crazy.

 

The logical thing would be to do what Forgeworld did with the old fliers - they are just treated as being 12" further away than they really are unless they are hovering or you are shooting at them with another flyer.

 

Stops people throwing grenades at them, hitting them with flamethrowers, and so on.

 

 

The problem, then, is that flamers suddenly can't hit jump infantry because they're also flyers now and that 12" would likely work both ways, meaning all of our weapons for our Seraphim are out of range.

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

The problem, then, is that flamers suddenly can't hit jump infantry because they're also flyers now and that 12" would likely work both ways, meaning all of our weapons for our Seraphim are out of range.

 

I think you're a little confused.

 

The shooting penalty when targeting aircraft comes from a special rule they all share called Hard to Hit. It has nothing to do with the Fly keyword.

[micahwc]

The Heretic BBQ immolator rush seems like it will be really powerful; though expensive. My 3 immolators with immolation flamers filled with flamer dominions costs 600 points. For that cost it can turn one BBQ heretics with immolation flamers, and turn 2 the sisters jump out and BBQ more.

 

Turn 2 you can get 21d6 hits, 4d6 are S 5.

 

73 average hits per turn. Good bye orks, mutants, Tau, etc.

 

So turn 1 the enemy now has to decide whether to focus on the immolators in his/her face and let the exorcists go to town, or focus on the exorcists and get really BBQ'd the next turn.

 

Also, just for fun, on average it takes like 6 melta guns to kill 1 rhino equivalent at BS4+ in one turn; so they will have to focus a lot of firepower into the immolators to actually kill them in one turn.

 

Edit: math wrong above, I forgot our invulnerable save. 8 melta hits at bs4+ to kill an immolator in 1 turn. 8 x .66 x .66 x .85 x 3.5 = 10.36 wounds average

Edited June 8, 2017 by micahwc