8th Ed Tactics thread

[Truesight]

For the Kastellan robots, if they are shooting orientated and on conqueror protocol just charge them with a Chimera.  They don't deal anti armour that well in overwatch or at all really in combat and on Conqueror protocols can't fall back.  Use your veterans to kill the Datasmith and that is a very expensive unit out of the game.

[Gen.Steiner]

Now that's a good idea. I really have to start viewing tanks as things that can actually charge stuff!

[Shamansky]

I have a question, that concerns me more and more day to day. I've read carefully rule about valkyries disembarking. 

Rule book, p. 61. VALKYRIES, Abilities:

"Grav-chute Insertion: Models may disembark from
this vehicle at any point during its move, but if the
Valkyrie moves more than 20", you must roll a D6 for
each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain.
Models that disembark in this manner must be set up
more than 9" from any enemy models."

 

What bothers me here is the last sentence. Does it states rules of disembarking when a Valkyrie traveled more than 20" or it is about whole Grav-chute method? If it is the latter, then we're having too much joy about disembarking here than we need to, as we can't place models in melta and flamer ranges.
I know that hesitation is a sin and will talk to my regimental priest later, and i will happily face any punishment if i have to. 

 

Edit:

The Priest reminded me that by His will our guardsmen are having two instruments of brining His Will and Wrath upon His enemies. Those two are called legs. And i'll have to sing in the regimental choir next month for being such an unbeliever.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Shamansky

[duz_]

I believe its only referring to disembarking while using grav chute.

Its still a <Transport> so normally rules pf disembarking should apply. This just gives you an additional way to do it during the movement phase instead of at the beginning of.

 

The rule is brutal though. My game on Saturday saw all 3 Bullgryns roll 1s... I was just staring at the dice my opponent didn't know why. When I explained he laughed and couldn't believe it either. For the sake of the game we ignored the result and continued on. Subsequently he forgot to deploy his drop pod T3 so I let him put it on T4 (to his advantage!) to return the favour. :)

[The Catachan Devil]

I believe its only referring to disembarking while using grav chute.

Its still a <Transport> so normally rules pf disembarking should apply. This just gives you an additional way to do it during the movement phase instead of at the beginning of.

 

The rule is brutal though. My game on Saturday saw all 3 Bullgryns roll 1s... I was just staring at the dice my opponent didn't know why. When I explained he laughed and couldn't believe it either. For the sake of the game we ignored the result and continued on. Subsequently he forgot to deploy his drop pod T3 so I let him put it on T4 (to his advantage!) to return the favour.

 

This is how the game should be played.

 

 

That said my opponent's G.Thraka was in combat vs a lowly catachan vet and Thraka rolled seven 1s to hit! Utterly hilarious. Due to the novelty the roll ( 1 in 279,936 chance of that occurring) we simply played on.

Edited July 17, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[Lemondish]

I have a question, that concerns me more and more day to day. I've read carefully rule about valkyries disembarking. 

Rule book, p. 61. VALKYRIES, Abilities:

"Grav-chute Insertion: Models may disembark from

this vehicle at any point during its move, but if the

Valkyrie moves more than 20", you must roll a D6 for

each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain.

Models that disembark in this manner must be set up

more than 9" from any enemy models."

 

What bothers me here is the last sentence. Does it states rules of disembarking when a Valkyrie traveled more than 20" or it is about whole Grav-chute method? If it is the latter, then we're having too much joy about disembarking here than we need to, as we can't place models in melta and flamer ranges.

I know that hesitation is a sin and will talk to my regimental priest later, and i will happily face any punishment if i have to. 

 

Edit:

The Priest reminded me that by His will our guardsmen are having two instruments of brining His Will and Wrath upon His enemies. Those two are called legs. And i'll have to sing in the regimental choir next month for being such an unbeliever.

 

I think it applies to the whole rule. I see it as the rule stating that you can disembark during movement, but you would take damage if you do it when the vehicle is going particularly speedy. Then clarifying that disembarking during movement requires models to be set up more than 9'' away from any enemy models. 

 

So it is similar to a deep strike, but the part you're missing, and the reason we're having so much joy about it, is the word 'disembark'. Models that disembark can move after doing so, which means that even if you have to set up 9'' away, you can move up to 6'' and be in melta/flamer range. It's quite a heavy investment in points to do so, but it is a super fun concept. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Lemondish

[duz_]

 

This is how the game should be played.

 

 

That said my opponent's G.Thraka was in combat vs a lowly catachan vet and Thraka rolled seven 1s to hit! Utterly hilarious. Due to the novelty the roll ( 1 in 279,936 chance of that occurring) we simply played on.

 

 

I think what you meant to say was:

 

Thrakka missed all 7 attacks against a Catachan Vet. I laughed uproariously because of course no Ork could ever claim the upper hand against a highly trained Catachan fighter. As such we kept the result.

Edited July 17, 2017 by duz_

[leth]

A tactic that I have been using recently for my transports is to add 1-2 acolytes to eat the rolls of one from grav insertion/vehicle death. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by leth

[Shamansky]

 

So it is similar to a deep strike, but the part you're missing, and the reason we're having so much joy about it, is the word 'disembark'. Models that disembark can move after doing so, which means that even if you have to set up 9'' away, you can move up to 6'' and be in melta/flamer range. It's quite a heavy investment in points to do so, but it is a super fun concept. 

 

That's what the priest was talking about

[The Catachan Devil]

 

I have a question, that concerns me more and more day to day. I've read carefully rule about valkyries disembarking. 

Rule book, p. 61. VALKYRIES, Abilities:

"Grav-chute Insertion: Models may disembark from

this vehicle at any point during its move, but if the

Valkyrie moves more than 20", you must roll a D6 for

each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain.

Models that disembark in this manner must be set up

more than 9" from any enemy models."

 

What bothers me here is the last sentence. Does it states rules of disembarking when a Valkyrie traveled more than 20" or it is about whole Grav-chute method? If it is the latter, then we're having too much joy about disembarking here than we need to, as we can't place models in melta and flamer ranges.

I know that hesitation is a sin and will talk to my regimental priest later, and i will happily face any punishment if i have to. 

 

Edit:

The Priest reminded me that by His will our guardsmen are having two instruments of brining His Will and Wrath upon His enemies. Those two are called legs. And i'll have to sing in the regimental choir next month for being such an unbeliever.

 

I think it applies to the whole rule. I see it as the rule stating that you can disembark during movement, but you would take damage if you do it when the vehicle is going particularly speedy. Then clarifying that disembarking during movement requires models to be set up more than 9'' away from any enemy models. 

 

So it is similar to a deep strike, but the part you're missing, and the reason we're having so much joy about it, is the word 'disembark'. Models that disembark can move after doing so, which means that even if you have to set up 9'' away, you can move up to 6'' and be in melta/flamer range. It's quite a heavy investment in points to do so, but it is a super fun concept. 

 

 

I  disagree. It doesn't apply to the whole rule. You only have to abide by the 9" away from enemy models if the Valkyrie moves over 20".

 

The Valkyrie can move less than 20" by using it's 'Hover Mode' which states:

 

"Before this model moves in your movement phase, you can declare it will hover. Its move characteristic will become 20" until the end of the phase, and loses the Airbourne, Hard To Hit, and Supersonic abilities until the beginning of your next movement phase."

 

 

This 'Hover mode' makes it just like any other transport vehicle and thus would follow the standard disembarking rule:

 

"Disembark: Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain. Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons."

 

So a Valkyrie with troops embarked at the start of it's movement phase can switch to hover mode, stay still, and it's troops can disembark 3", >1" from enemy models and can act normally. 

 

 

NOW. The grav chute special rule specifically states that:

 

"Grav-chute Insertion: Models may disembark from

this vehicle at any point during its move, but if the

Valkyrie moves more than 20", you must roll a D6 for

each model disembarking"

 

This implies that the model may move any distance up to 20" and the models may disembark (implying normal disembarking procedures) at any point during its movement. Considering that the minimum range of movement of a flying Valk is 20" then it is unnecessary for the Valk to enter hover mode to be able to do this.

 

HOWEVER if the model moves more than 20" then it must roll D6/model, any 1s kill said model.

 

 

Seems fairly straight foward when you consider all the rules involved. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[zero88]

Has anyone thought about using the "Full Throttle" tank order to shock your opponents flank on turn 1? I bet it could catch a lot of people off guard since they aren't used to LRBTs moving quick to begin with, not to mention the 22-32 inch move that gives. I would use a Punisher with storm Bolter and 3 heavy flamers to do it.. it's a scary tank to begin with and nearly as dangerous to assault. Either way, a T8 model with that many auto hits is a threat most people can't ignore, and if you combo'd it with some Scions or Rough Riders it could get VERY nasty.

[duz_]

That would make a somewhat expensive suicide tank / distraction carnifex.

If your opponent doesnt have the AT to deal with it will cause them grief until they tie it down in assault.

 

I do like Punishers with heavy flamers though. Last game I did more damage with them in overwatch than with the Punisher in the shooting phase... haha

[NatBrannigan]

Punisher with 3 heavy Flamers you say? Now that's a fun looking tank. By far the best unit I've used so far has been a Land Raider Redeemer with some Inquisitors and Acolytes in there. The troops were ok but the tank was Brutal! Those Flamestorm Cannon... It just cruised it's way through the middle of the table deleting most of a unit each turn. You can't charge the damn thing without a unit dying horribly.

 

Do you find that the Punisher with HF's gets easily tied in combat? I carelessly got my LRBT's in combat and that was them out the game for two turns.

[Truesight]

Punisher with 3 heavy Flamers you say? Now that's a fun looking tank. By far the best unit I've used so far has been a Land Raider Redeemer with some Inquisitors and Acolytes in there. The troops were ok but the tank was Brutal! Those Flamestorm Cannon... It just cruised it's way through the middle of the table deleting most of a unit each turn. You can't charge the damn thing without a unit dying horribly.

 

Do you find that the Punisher with HF's gets easily tied in combat? I carelessly got my LRBT's in combat and that was them out the game for two turns.

Ran a stock punisher with 3 heavy flamers against Necrons this week.  I had it in the front with my infantry and my opponent charged it with 6 scarabs and a smug look.  It killed all of them in overwatch.  Then walked into the rest of the army.  It's quite a terror weapon, people won't charge them twice, it's hard to kill and doesn't care about a degraded profile.  With 1 wound you are eating 3 heavy flamers a round. 

[mmimzie]

 

 

I have a question, that concerns me more and more day to day. I've read carefully rule about valkyries disembarking. 

Rule book, p. 61. VALKYRIES, Abilities:

"Grav-chute Insertion: Models may disembark from

this vehicle at any point during its move, but if the

Valkyrie moves more than 20", you must roll a D6 for

each model disembarking. On a 1, that model is slain.

Models that disembark in this manner must be set up

more than 9" from any enemy models."

 

What bothers me here is the last sentence. Does it states rules of disembarking when a Valkyrie traveled more than 20" or it is about whole Grav-chute method? If it is the latter, then we're having too much joy about disembarking here than we need to, as we can't place models in melta and flamer ranges.

I know that hesitation is a sin and will talk to my regimental priest later, and i will happily face any punishment if i have to. 

 

Edit:

The Priest reminded me that by His will our guardsmen are having two instruments of brining His Will and Wrath upon His enemies. Those two are called legs. And i'll have to sing in the regimental choir next month for being such an unbeliever.

 

I think it applies to the whole rule. I see it as the rule stating that you can disembark during movement, but you would take damage if you do it when the vehicle is going particularly speedy. Then clarifying that disembarking during movement requires models to be set up more than 9'' away from any enemy models. 

 

So it is similar to a deep strike, but the part you're missing, and the reason we're having so much joy about it, is the word 'disembark'. Models that disembark can move after doing so, which means that even if you have to set up 9'' away, you can move up to 6'' and be in melta/flamer range. It's quite a heavy investment in points to do so, but it is a super fun concept. 

 

 

I  disagree. It doesn't apply to the whole rule. You only have to abide by the 9" away from enemy models if the Valkyrie moves over 20".

 

The Valkyrie can move less than 20" by using it's 'Hover Mode' which states:

 

"Before this model moves in your movement phase, you can declare it will hover. Its move characteristic will become 20" until the end of the phase, and loses the Airbourne, Hard To Hit, and Supersonic abilities until the beginning of your next movement phase."

 

 

This 'Hover mode' makes it just like any other transport vehicle and thus would follow the standard disembarking rule:

 

"Disembark: Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain. Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons."

 

So a Valkyrie with troops embarked at the start of it's movement phase can switch to hover mode, stay still, and it's troops can disembark 3", >1" from enemy models and can act normally. 

 

 

NOW. The grav chute special rule specifically states that:

 

"Grav-chute Insertion: Models may disembark from

this vehicle at any point during its move, but if the

Valkyrie moves more than 20", you must roll a D6 for

each model disembarking"

 

This implies that the model may move any distance up to 20" and the models may disembark (implying normal disembarking procedures) at any point during its movement. Considering that the minimum range of movement of a flying Valk is 20" then it is unnecessary for the Valk to enter hover mode to be able to do this.

 

HOWEVER if the model moves more than 20" then it must roll D6/model, any 1s kill said model.

 

 

Seems fairly straight foward when you consider all the rules involved. 

 

You could be right, but it's vague enough that it could go either way. In the case of rules it's always best to go the way of the most conservative interpretation.  The problem is the use of the pronoun "this" modified or not by the word manner. None of the other rules really make any difference here.The meaning is definitely unclear, but i can fairly see it read both ways.

 

Edit: Oh and in your math analyse before. Very cool about what i've seen, but you didn't mention command squads who even with the tax of one platoon command per squad will out preform a special weapons squad every time because they are paying a tax of 3 extra vanilla guys and have worse BS.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by mmimzie

[The Catachan Devil]

 

You could be right, but it's vague enough that it could go either way. In the case of rules it's always best to go the way of the most conservative interpretation.  The problem is the use of the pronoun "this" modified or not by the word manner. None of the other rules really make any difference here.The meaning is definitely unclear, but i can fairly see it read both ways.

 

 

Edit: Oh and in your math analyse before. Very cool about what i've seen, but you didn't mention command squads who even with the tax of one platoon command per squad will out preform a special weapons squad every time because they are paying a tax of 3 extra vanilla guys and have worse BS.  

 

 

I do agree it is poorly phrased. The full stop can make it seem like the 9" rule applies to all disembarkations. I think this a is a RAI VS RAW matter.

 

However I maintain that if the Valk switches to hover mode and stays still the troops can disembark from like any other transport and ignore the 9" rule. 

 

As a result it makes little difference as one can bomb it up to enemy lines (>1" away) in a valk Turn 1; then in turn 2 Hover, don't move and disembark right in front of the enemy anyway. 

 

 

 

Edit: Ah yes, I guess I had overlooked them. Briefly looking at the stats  I would imagine they would do 66% more damage based on better ballistic skill and 1 more special weapon. However base cost of the command squad and the special weapons team is the same (24 points) and one more special weapon would make them more expensive. Oh and having a 4 models to the SWTs 6 models means a lower wound count meaning less durability ( a minor thing, but every death with the command team is a special weapon lost - the SWT can lose 3 models before their output is effected).

 

 

Edit 2: I'm going to be posting a more comprehensive tactica of what the best weapons are vs different armies. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[duz_]

Punisher with 3 heavy Flamers you say? Now that's a fun looking tank. By far the best unit I've used so far has been a Land Raider Redeemer with some Inquisitors and Acolytes in there. The troops were ok but the tank was Brutal! Those Flamestorm Cannon... It just cruised it's way through the middle of the table deleting most of a unit each turn. You can't charge the damn thing without a unit dying horribly.

 

Do you find that the Punisher with HF's gets easily tied in combat? I carelessly got my LRBT's in combat and that was them out the game for two turns.

I've only played a couple of games with the Punishers in both games that was definitely the case.

Im not sure if its me or the game now or combination of both that lead to it being in combat turn two. Possibly a little bit of both.

The first game it was charged non assault units so was able to fall back wait a turn and re-engage. The second game it was charged by a dread and IK and didn't make it. It did however dish out some mortal wounds after exploding ;)

 

Im thinking next time I should try and run the Punishers as a command tank for BS3+

[The Catachan Devil]

Has anyone thought about using the "Full Throttle" tank order to shock your opponents flank on turn 1? I bet it could catch a lot of people off guard since they aren't used to LRBTs moving quick to begin with, not to mention the 22-32 inch move that gives. I would use a Punisher with storm Bolter and 3 heavy flamers to do it.. it's a scary tank to begin with and nearly as dangerous to assault. Either way, a T8 model with that many auto hits is a threat most people can't ignore, and if you combo'd it with some Scions or Rough Riders it could get VERY nasty.

 

 

Maybe. Though you 'Full Throttle' in your shooting phase, so you don't get to shoot that turn. You also can't charge as you have to advance. So you are a sitting duck for their entire army to shoot at for their shooting phase as T1 the enemy army won't be in range of anything else yet.  I think it advancing with a lot of units is the best bet. 

 

 

 

Punisher with 3 heavy Flamers you say? Now that's a fun looking tank. By far the best unit I've used so far has been a Land Raider Redeemer with some Inquisitors and Acolytes in there. The troops were ok but the tank was Brutal! Those Flamestorm Cannon... It just cruised it's way through the middle of the table deleting most of a unit each turn. You can't charge the damn thing without a unit dying horribly.

 

Do you find that the Punisher with HF's gets easily tied in combat? I carelessly got my LRBT's in combat and that was them out the game for two turns.

I've only played a couple of games with the Punishers in both games that was definitely the case.

Im not sure if its me or the game now or combination of both that lead to it being in combat turn two. Possibly a little bit of both.

The first game it was charged non assault units so was able to fall back wait a turn and re-engage. The second game it was charged by a dread and IK and didn't make it. It did however dish out some mortal wounds after exploding

 

Im thinking next time I should try and run the Punishers as a command tank for BS3+

 

 

Not really a fan of the Leman Russ. Though the best main weapon to take is the punisher cannon. However it's main use really is basically a tough chassis to carry 3x heavy flamers on. How efficient this is to start with I'm unsure. 

 

As a result I'm not sure how efficient it would be to then spend more points on an expensive tank to boost it's BS for weapons that don't use BS. The points can be better spent elsewhere imo. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[duz_]

Yes I agree at 203pts for the Punisher and flamers combo and 238 for the tank commander it is 10% of a 2000pt roster...

I also just realised that the Executioner w/ hull flamers and plasma cannon sponsons is 4 pts cheaper than non commander load up above.

Next game I plan on using it, I suspect given its further range I should be able to keep it in my back field long enough that they wont get charged until T3. :D

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm personally feeling that the Russ is a bit limp in terms of firepower these days. It just doesn't seem to put out much and I've found them fairly easy to shut down or otherwise render non-threatening.

[leth]

My problem with the russ is that, for the most part, the FW variants are just better. 

[NatBrannigan]

I've been running Pask with a Demolisher cannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Flamer along with an Executioner, Plasma Cannon sponsons and a Heavy Flamer. They've done well when I've kept them out of combat. Blew away a Ball Predator in my first game which I was terrified of letting close to my infantry. The re-roll 1's order is great and you can give it to both tanks each turn. I overloaded all the Plasms and got away with no 1's to maul the pred, which was finished off my the Demolisher cannon. Lucky but not THAT lucky. Then they just generally put the hurt on everything in the surrounding area for the rest of the game.

 

That's an expensive way to make LRBT's good though... I could run a Land Raider Redeemer or Malacdor Infernus and have change for my points...

[The Catachan Devil]

Yes I agree at 203pts for the Punisher and flamers combo and 238 for the tank commander it is 10% of a 2000pt roster...

I also just realised that the Executioner w/ hull flamers and plasma cannon sponsons is 4 pts cheaper than non commander load up above.

Next game I plan on using it, I suspect given its further range I should be able to keep it in my back field long enough that they wont get charged until T3.

 

Yeah exactly, it's fairly expensive. If you want flamers galore get two chimeras with x2 HF for virtually the same points and 10 more wounds. 

 

And I do like the Executioner PC actually. I only prefer the Punisher out of the fear of rolling ones  

 

Get it next to something that grants it rerolls and it'll be scary as heck. 

[duz_]

It certainly doesnt help that LRs can't fall back and still shoot.

Would be nice if we got an order to do so or at a -1 penalty like UMs.

Having the ability outright might be OP. Although its not that difficult with a large enough squad to charge and completely surround a tank so they can't get out. So maybe it wouldn't be too OP.

[Die4Emprah]

Manticore showed better results than i expected. Good 'big dudes hunter' capabilities. With one rocket it shaved half of wounds off one of those big gunned batlle suits with overapostrophed name.

Exterminator is ok, but used to be better.

 

Laughed out loud at the  "overapostrophed "