8th Ed Tactics thread

[Otto von Bludd]

If you want to kill Knights efficiently you need STR 9+ that does a good number of damage per wound and also is not destroyed instantly by the STR8 shooting of the knight which will go first.  I have not found a better unit than the LR Annihilator with Lascannon+MM sponsons for this.  It does absolutely brutal damage at long range, and just kills knights dead within 24".  It also melts other vehicles in the blink of an eye.  I'm thinking of running 2 of these plus Pask for orders to kill all vehicles and a bunch of Flameras filled with infantry to engage everything else.  The nice thing about this is that all enemy AT power will be directed at the LRs (which will be supported by astropath and techpriest) while the Chimeras run amok.  If tank commanders are allowed to take LR Annihilators (I've emailed FW about this) it will be even more deadly.  

 

One added bonus of such a list is you stand a very good chance of going first against most armies (not knights obviously), with only 8-10 drops.  If you get to go first with those 3 LRs you will be able to kill whatever target you want to.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[mmimzie]

 

 

 

You could be right, but it's vague enough that it could go either way. In the case of rules it's always best to go the way of the most conservative interpretation. The problem is the use of the pronoun "this" modified or not by the word manner. None of the other rules really make any difference here.The meaning is definitely unclear, but i can fairly see it read both ways.

 

 

 

Edit: Oh and in your math analyse before. Very cool about what i've seen, but you didn't mention command squads who even with the tax of one platoon command per squad will out preform a special weapons squad every time because they are paying a tax of 3 extra vanilla guys and have worse BS.

 

I do agree it is poorly phrased. The full stop can make it seem like the 9" rule applies to all disembarkations. I think this a is a RAI VS RAW matter.

 

However I maintain that if the Valk switches to hover mode and stays still the troops can disembark from like any other transport and ignore the 9" rule.

 

As a result it makes little difference as one can bomb it up to enemy lines (>1" away) in a valk Turn 1; then in turn 2 Hover, don't move and disembark right in front of the enemy anyway.

 

 

 

Edit: Ah yes, I guess I had overlooked them. Briefly looking at the stats I would imagine they would do 66% more damage based on better ballistic skill and 1 more special weapon. However base cost of the command squad and the special weapons team is the same (24 points) and one more special weapon would make them more expensive. Oh and having a 4 models to the SWTs 6 models means a lower wound count meaning less durability ( a minor thing, but every death with the command team is a special weapon lost - the SWT can lose 3 models before their output is effected).

 

 

Edit 2: I'm going to be posting a more comprehensive tactica of what the best weapons are vs different armies.

You can normal disembark even if your flying you don't have to hover to do this I don't see a rule that says you can disembark from a super sonic flier. You just have to do it before moving the model.

 

As for the command aquad. Yeah the special weapons do bring more rounds per point, but even look at all the vehicles in the game.thoer damage out puts are really low for thier point because you trade toughness for damage.

 

I think though the best call squads are command squads. You can fit up to 3 command squads, or 2 command squads and 2 platoon commanders. I think this is best because the point of this call drop squad is to do as much damage as possible.

[Withershadow]

I think you folks need to double check your math. 6 special weapon guardsmen cost the same as 4 command guardsmen. 2+D6 BS4+ shots will match the performance of 4 BS3+ shots if you roll a 3 for the demo charge, and outperform them if you roll anything higher.

[mmimzie]

I think you folks need to double check your math. 6 special weapon guardsmen cost the same as 4 command guardsmen. 2+D6 BS4+ shots will match the performance of 4 BS3+ shots if you roll a 3 for the demo charge, and outperform them if you roll anything higher.

You my friend need to actually do the math, but you don't really have to. In the special weapons thread I posted the fully detailed math and reasoning. Simply put command squads are better. Not to mention you can fit 12 melta s in a valkyrie using command squads....

[WarriorFish]

There is scope for personal preference and more in the roles and potentials - only the B&C's rules are absolutes. Let's play nice so we don't need to find out how ;)

[The Catachan Devil]

 

I think you folks need to double check your math. 6 special weapon guardsmen cost the same as 4 command guardsmen. 2+D6 BS4+ shots will match the performance of 4 BS3+ shots if you roll a 3 for the demo charge, and outperform them if you roll anything higher.

You my friend need to actually do the math, but you don't really have to. In the special weapons thread I posted the fully detailed math and reasoning. Simply put command squads are better. Not to mention you can fit 12 melta s in a valkyrie using command squads....

 

 

 

You are correct Withershadow that 6 SW guardsmen cost the same as 4 Command guardsman.

 

However command squads can't take demo charges. This is an advantage of SW guardsmen, if you wish to use demo charges. 

 

 

In regards to shooting:

 

SW guardsmen has BS 4+ and can take 3 Special weapons. 

 

Command squad has BS 3+ can can take 4 Special weapons.

 

Ergo, Command squads put out more damage/unit. 

 

 

 

And yeah 12 meltaguns with BS3+ in a valk is pretty darn cool. Even cooler at <6" ;). 

[Withershadow]

The comparison was efficiency from a cost stand-point and the max potential damage given the number of high strength hits a demo charge can generate.  Granted the charge is not quite as awesome as a meltagun due to being -3 and dealing D3 damage rather than D6, but D6 (with command re-roll) attacks can compensate for that.  The command squad definitely has its place, but again has conditions to inclusion.  I currently have a detachment transported via two Vendettas.  One has a Commander, Officer of the Fleet, Command Squad, and the melta SWS.  The other has two SWSs with 3 flamers each.  Once they are dropped off, you get 6 meltaguns, 2D6 demo charge attacks, up to 30 lasguns (if the flamer squads get FRFSRF), 6D6 flamer hits, and the mortal wounds attack from the Officer.  All self-contained and all the dudes fit into a Spearhead formation.  They have done very well in their two games, but next time I'll try to mix it up with two commanders, two melta command squads, and two SWSs with flamers.  I suspect that 6 melta + 2D6 demo charge + Officer will deal more damage than 8 shots even at improved BS.  Worth experimenting, in either case.

[NatBrannigan]

You also need a Commander for each command squad lets not forget! I find that Scions do the job of melta / plasma command squads better and I have less issue taking a few squads of Scions then a few Command Squads. Makes more sense to me. I like taking my SWS with Demo charge because they were so fun in previous editions, the sheer randomness of the Demo charge's template scatter roll always made it a fun moment.

[Gen.Steiner]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the viability of an all Stormtrooper army (representing a Grenadier unit from an Infantry Regiment)?

What would be best to support them - classic LRMBT variants, or Navy support in the form of multiple Valkyries and some Vultures?

[NatBrannigan]

I expect that would be very viable indeed given how strong Scions are this edition. Valks, Vendettas, Vultures, Taurox Primes, OOF's for support if you wanted to run as a SpecOps style army. Artillery, LRBT's and Chimeras for a Grenadier Infantry company. You're paying for Deep Strike that may not get used in both cases but apart from that there aren't really any downsides.

 

Would this proposed Grenadier Infantry Company be making use of female heads by any chance?

[The Catachan Devil]

You also need a Commander for each command squad lets not forget! ....

 

It isn't a requirement. They are just an elite choice. 

 

The comparison was efficiency from a cost stand-point and the max potential damage given the number of high strength hits a demo charge can generate.  Granted the charge is not quite as awesome as a meltagun due to being -3 and dealing D3 damage rather than D6, but D6 (with command re-roll) attacks can compensate for that.  The command squad definitely has its place, but again has conditions to inclusion.  I currently have a detachment transported via two Vendettas.  One has a Commander, Officer of the Fleet, Command Squad, and the melta SWS.  The other has two SWSs with 3 flamers each.  Once they are dropped off, you get 6 meltaguns, 2D6 demo charge attacks, up to 30 lasguns (if the flamer squads get FRFSRF), 6D6 flamer hits, and the mortal wounds attack from the Officer.  All self-contained and all the dudes fit into a Spearhead formation.  They have done very well in their two games, but next time I'll try to mix it up with two commanders, two melta command squads, and two SWSs with flamers.  I suspect that 6 melta + 2D6 demo charge + Officer will deal more damage than 8 shots even at improved BS.  Worth experimenting, in either case.

Command Squad w/Meltaguns @ <6"

• Cost = 72 points
• Shots = 4 => 2.67 hits 
• VS GEQ => 2.22 dead
• VS MEQ => 2.22 dead
• VS TEQ => 1.48 dead
• Vs T7 Vehicle => 7.95 wounds
• Vs T8 Vehicle => 5.96 wounds 

 

Special weapons team w/Demo charges @<6"

• Cost= 39 points
• Shots= 3*3.5=10.5 => 5.25 Hits
• VS GEQ => 4.38
• VS MEQ => 3.65
• VS TEQ => 2.92
• VS T7 Vehicle => 5.83 wounds
• VS T8 Vehicle => 4.38 wounds

As you can see the Special weapons team w/DC does more damage to infantry, whilst the command squad w/MG does more damage to tanks. 

 

Now no one in their right mind would take melta to take out elite infantry - you'd use Plasma. So any claim that DCs are superior because they kill more GEQs than meltaguns is silly as you aren't taking them for GEQs you're taking them for tanks.

 

Also the DC have a 1-shot problem, MGs do not. As a result the values above for the command squad can be doubled or tripled depends on how many turns they survive. 

 

Now. I believe the SWT are good at two things: being cheap; and killing TEQs. 78 points of DCs can take out 200points + of terminators. They shine here. Furthermore people who aren't familiar with a democharge will probably ignore them more than if you were to say they had melta or plasma. Which is required due to it's grenade-length range.

 

I don't think command squads are better. I don't think meltaguns are better. I just think they are meant for different things.

[duz_]

I had a 1500pt list that was scions + emperors fist tank company

It was a lot of fun and did reasonably well although its certainly middling at best in terms of tournament power.

 

If I was to do it this ed I'd probably run it similar 2 commanders and command squad 3 melta sqauds then maybe 3 LRs and some air support more likely Vultures and Thunderbolts though.

[The Catachan Devil]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the viability of an all Stormtrooper army (representing a Grenadier unit from an Infantry Regiment)?

 

What would be best to support them - classic LRMBT variants, or Navy support in the form of multiple Valkyries and some Vultures?

 

Assuming you mean scions. I think deepstriking 2 units with a Tempestor Prime behind enemy lines to target certain units is quite effective and disruptive.

 

The only caveat I'd mention is that you will likely want to FRFSRF, or at least rapid fire them. However deepstriking denies you being within 1/2 range. Something to consider.

 

Now them coming from a Valk would allow them to be in rapid fire range, so maybe this is preferable. 

 

So to support them coming in on a valk, I'd advise anti-tank. Or anti-anti-flyers - if that makes sense.

 

Manticores are always a safe bet. If you want a LR, take a plasma russ with someway of rolling 1s perhaps?

 

 

If you have the money/interest, Death korps of krieg engineers with their caracass shotguns are darn cool for shock troops; BS3+ Wound on 2+s and WS3+ is nothing to scoff at) plus they cost the same as Scions. 

[NatBrannigan]

You need need a Platoon or Company commander in your list for each Command Squad taken as per the FAQ, to stop the Command Squad Spam Catachan Devil.

 

Of course that does somewhat prove what the better choice is! No-one is worried about SWS spam.

[The Catachan Devil]

You need need a Platoon or Company commander in your list for each Command Squad taken as per the FAQ, to stop the Command Squad Spam Catachan Devil.

 

Of course that does somewhat prove what the better choice is! No-one is worried about SWS spam.

Oops, Elbow on the pulse. Wasn't aware of an FAQ. Though it just says "officer", So (lord) commissars and (company,platoon) commanders are all viable,

not to mention special characters. So basically 1 command squad per HQ and per commissar or platoon commander. 

 

And it also talks about matched play, so open and narrative play aren't confined to this.

 

"Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List Add the following rule: ‘Matched Play – Command Squads If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged army can include a maximum of one Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each Officer in that Detachment. Similarly, if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged army can include a maximum of one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment."

Edited July 19, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[Galron]

I still expect that to be reduced further in the future since if you bring two of the specialized detachments and a battalion, you still can field 5 command squads making special weapon teams and vets redundant. I am using them in my army and a vet squad just because I have the miniatures already built and ready to go but if I was starting from scratch especially with expensive armies like elysians or DKoK then I wouldnt spend the money or time converting to take advantage of the current loophole. I expect it to drop to be one per warlord or one per detachment. As it stands there's no reason to field vets or SWSs. The one exception to that might be flamer squads although off hand I think a command squad still comes in cheaper or barely more expensive with 4 flamers than a SWS with 3 and 6 guys. Then again, with the flamer/overwatch nerf, in my application I don't see the purpose for a dedicated flamer unit anymore.

[Gen.Steiner]

 

Would this proposed Grenadier Infantry Company be making use of female heads by any chance?

 

... who told you? There's obviously a leak. I must plug it. Where's my bolt pistol gone...

[micahwc]

How would a Vendetta do against a knight? 6x lascannons and the knight hits the Vendetta at -1. Reason I ask is I already have two magnetized Valkyries that I can swap into Vendettas easily enough, but I've also thought about buying some rapier laser destroyers.

[duz_]

Unfortunately Vendettas suffer from the -1 to hit if they move. So they're not as effective gunboat as they used to be. Although only slightly so 2 hits per turn vs ~2.25 with the old rules.

If youre going to take Vendettas to get max benefits from them you'll need to use them to transport units too. Cheapest and most effective would be 2x SWS squads I imagine.

[The Catachan Devil]

How would a Vendetta do against a knight? 6x lascannons and the knight hits the Vendetta at -1. Reason I ask is I already have two magnetized Valkyries that I can swap into Vendettas easily enough, but I've also thought about buying some rapier laser destroyers.

 

In comparison to what? 

 

A moving Vendetta => 6 Lascannon shots => 2 hits => 3.11 Wounds on a IK. 

 

The main issue it that it costs 230 points. 1/2 a knight. And it would take it 7+ turns to kill a knight.

 

Also Knights can take anti-air weapons as carapace armour anyway. So the Fly modifier doesn't help it survive an awful lot better

 

Vendetta isn't specifically an anti-knight vehicle. Vs Light/medium vehicles does great.

If you want to spam lascannons just take some heavy weapon teams instead.

 

 

THAT SAID, It can make a good supporting transport for a unit well suited to Anti-IK duties.

 

 

If Knights are a big thing in your meta. Bring your 2 vendettas and pack them both with 3 meltagun command squads. 

 

Turn 1 Vendettas bomb up to them & shoot. 6.2 wounds.

Turn 2 Unload 6 command squads in front of IK/s - Shooting from <6" should yield 24 shots => 16 Hits => 23.8 wounds.

Turn 2 Vendettas shoot at IKs another 6.2 wounds

 

By the end of Turn 2 Your opponent has lost one knight and has another severely crippled. 

 

2 vendettas and 6 command squads = 862 points. 

Your opponents face when he ignores your Vendettas and loses 1.5 knights before turn 3 = priceless.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

In regards to the Rapier Laser destroyer.

 

Vs a T8 5++ target it doesn't do any better in comparison to a twin lascannon. 

 

• RLD has 36" range, Twin Lascannon has 48"
• S12 wounds on a 3+, just like S9 does.
• The AP-4 mean the IK makes an INV save just like the AP-3 does.
• 50% of the time it does 2D6 damage, but the twin lascannon has x2 shots so the damage equals out.
• Also if the guardsman crew die - it can't fire. Not an issue with a Twin lascannon.
• A vendetta + 3 TL lascannons = 230 points. 3x RLDs costs 216 points. Not a wicked points gap.
• 33% of the time the RLD will do half the damage of a twin lascannon. and only 16.7% of the time exceed it.

 

HOWEVER. 

• A vendetta has a -1BS if it moves meaning the TLascannon is less accurate - the vendetta will likely always be moving. 

 

So purely on the face of things VS an IK I would say a RLD is worse than a twin lascannon vs an IK EQ. That said if you want accurate, cheap lascannons you can get 9x lascannon HWTs cheaper than 3x RLDs, and equal BS skill. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[Jacinda]

 

2 vendettas and 6 command squads = 862 points. 

 

Does that include the 6 commanders you are required to take?

 

: http://www.warhammerdigital.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/rules/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Imperium_2_ver_1.0.pdf

ERRATA

Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List

Add the following rule:

‘Matched Play – Command Squads

If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged

army can include a maximum of one <Regiment>

Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each

<Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly,

if you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-

forged army can include a maximum of one Militarum

Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment

for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.’  

 

 

[leth]

Personally I just see the -1 as a bonus on the first turn if going second.  Otherwise I would keep my vendettas stationary.  Keep them close to Yarrick for those re-roll 1s to hit and you are now looking at 3.5ish lascannon hits per vendetta. 

[micahwc]

3 plasma command squads with 3 platoon commanders is 216, plus 230 for a Vendetta = 446 points.  892 points for two Vendettas as such. 48 plasma shots when they disembark, plus 12 lascannon shots.

[The Catachan Devil]

 

 

2 vendettas and 6 command squads = 862 points. 

 

Does that include the 6 commanders you are required to take?

 

: http://www.warhammerdigital.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/rules/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Imperium_2_ver_1.0.pdf

ERRATA

Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List

Add the following rule:

‘Matched Play – Command Squads

If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged

army can include a maximum of one <Regiment>

Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each

<Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly,

if you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-

forged army can include a maximum of one Militarum

Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment

for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.’  

 

 

 

No I didn't include that. As they don't have to ride in the transport with them. And you can easily get the officers to earn their points by sticking them in conscript blobs etc. 

 

If you really want it added. Assuming that there will be 2 HQs in the army anyway. 4 additional platoon commanders cost 80 points. (depending on the detachment you pick)

 

Total 942 points.

Edited July 19, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[The Catachan Devil]

Personally I just see the -1 as a bonus on the first turn if going second.  Otherwise I would keep my vendettas stationary.  Keep them close to Yarrick for those re-roll 1s to hit and you are now looking at 3.5ish lascannon hits per vendetta. 

 

But why?

 

You aren't utilising the vendettas speed or it's transport capacity.

 

Why not just spend the points of two vendettas on 18x lascannon HWTs for example?