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8th Ed Tactics thread


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#376
leth

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Personally I just see the -1 as a bonus on the first turn if going second.  Otherwise I would keep my vendettas stationary.  Keep them close to Yarrick for those re-roll 1s to hit and you are now looking at 3.5ish lascannon hits per vendetta. 

 

But why?

 

You aren't utilising the vendettas speed or it's transport capacity.

 

Why not just spend the points of two vendettas on 18x lascannon HWTs for example?

 

 

Which is harder to kill? Also you can still use its transport capacity but those 6 lascannon shots will be around for a long time, the lascannon heavy weapon teams dont have the ability to move IF they need to.  The vendetta being on a flying base means it basically can get around a lot of terrain concerns. You still have the option of having it fly and get into position at any time with a squad or two inside.  It just doesnt mean that you HAVE to. 

 

Plus I dont know about you but I dont own 18 lascannon HWT and have no intention of buying them.  I do own a vulture and vendetta


Edited by leth, 19 July 2017 - 04:51 PM.


#377
mmimzie

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Even stationary for kill power the vendetta doesnt make its points well when it comes to damage out put. Armor is great because its tough. So those 230 points you pay for the vendetta you should look at those point as being thier primarily for toughness. The same is true for the mean russ, all the artillery, and the baneblades.

When we look at AM consider it as eother being paper then with ridiculous fire power in the form of troops or as being super tough in the form of lots of armor. Most things are good and worth taking, but when you take units keep that simple dichotomy in mind.

As far use us3 for SEE teams they are goodpretty good in two ways. 1 they don't take two slots. Which means you can take about as many as you want. They are also the flamer (and demo charge) kings for the AM. Flamers dont care about BS at all. So the flamer see weapons team is super effuent. Even more effcient because the Las guns can help shoot the same target.

In this role I wonder how this stacks up against a vet squad with flamers, shotguns, and a heavy flamer. I think the special weapons squad might still be top dog here as you get 6 flamers for about the same cost as the vet squad??

Edited by mmimzie, 19 July 2017 - 05:20 PM.


#378
Otto von Bludd

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My problem with the Vendetta is its T7 and total inability to hide anywhere.  The opponent takes one look at those 6 lascannons and puts all his STR8 into it and it just dies. When all those STR 8 D6 damage weapons are wounding on 3s those 14 wounds just evaporate. I had 1 knight with mediocre rolling casually put my Vendetta down to 2 wounds after shooting 2 guns at it.  3 decent damage rolls from 3 krak missiles will do you in and it takes far less than that to cripple you to the point of hitting on 6s.  T7 is ok on a lower cost, lower threat unit like a Hellhound, Chimera or Artillery piece because presumably there are bigger single model threats to draw the STR8 away from them (like a kitted out LRBT) or they can hide out of LoS.  Not so with the Vendetta.  Even if it only hits on 5s all the enemy sees is 6 lascannons in one place with T7 and ALL the STR 8 goes right there.  Str 8 is very plentiful too.  


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#379
The Catachan Devil

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Which is harder to kill? Also you can still use its transport capacity but those 6 lascannon shots will be around for a long time, the lascannon heavy weapon teams dont have the ability to move IF they need to.  The vendetta being on a flying base means it basically can get around a lot of terrain concerns. You still have the option of having it fly and get into position at any time with a squad or two inside.  It just doesnt mean that you HAVE to. 

 

Plus I dont know about you but I dont own 18 lascannon HWT and have no intention of buying them.  I do own a vulture and vendetta

 

 

 

I feel asking whether a vendetta is harder to kill than a HWT is fairly redundant because you'd never use the same weapons on either - unless you were desperate?

 

And yes I'm not suggesting that you take 18 HWT teams, I was merely showing that you could get them for the same points as 2 Vendetta.

 

In regards to damage output 6 HWTs = 1 Vendetta (hovering) and costs 90 points less!. If you're playing apocalypse then ignore me but 90-180 points is a lot of points wasted on a few lascannons. 

 

Now to address the bogusness of the 'it upgrades its durability' argument. 

 

Yes the vendetta is harder to kill with small arms fire but it isn't efficient, and it is easier to kill with tank weapons than a HWT I'll show this all below. 

 

 

(230pt) Vendetta VS (number of hits to kill)

  • Lasguns => 256 Hits 
  • Bolters => 126 Hits
  • Plasma  => 33.6 Hits (standard) / 12.6 hits (overcharged)
  • Melta (<6") =>  4.69

(144pt) 6x HWT VS (number of hits to kill)

  • Lasguns => 48 Hits
  • Bolters => 36 Hits
  • Plasma  => 14.4 Hits (standard) / 7.2 hits (overcharged)
  • Melta (<6") => 14.4 Hits 

 

If you were to approximate the cost of a Vendetta chassis (110 points) based on a (24 point) HWTs durability vs different weapons

 

  • Lasguns => 128 points
  • Bolters => 84 points
  • Plasma gun => 56 points
  • Meltagun => 7.8 points

 

The ONLY weapon the vendetta chassis is worth it's points against is against lasguns. If you're playing against someone that uses mass lasguns then ignore me. However  I doubt it.

 

 

If you want to field Vendettas because you like them or you've now bought them and have committed then fair enough -go nuts.

 

However they aren't effective or efficient firing platforms - this is not what they have been designed for. 6x HWT are superior in efficiency and equivalent in damage output compared to one vendetta. 

 

Even stationary for kill power the vendetta doesnt make its points well when it comes to damage out put. Armor is great because its tough. So those 230 points you pay for the vendetta you should look at those point as being thier primarily for toughness. The same is true for the mean russ, all the artillery, and the baneblades.

When we look at AM consider it as eother being paper then with ridiculous fire power in the form of troops or as being super tough in the form of lots of armor. Most things are good and worth taking, but when you take units keep that simple dichotomy in mind.

As far use us3 for SEE teams they are goodpretty good in two ways. 1 they don't take two slots. Which means you can take about as many as you want. They are also the flamer (and demo charge) kings for the AM. Flamers dont care about BS at all. So the flamer see weapons team is super effuent. Even more effcient because the Las guns can help shoot the same target.

In this role I wonder how this stacks up against a vet squad with flamers, shotguns, and a heavy flamer. I think the special weapons squad might still be top dog here as you get 6 flamers for about the same cost as the vet squad??

 

 

I agree with the dichotomy of units available to the IG. And I agree that the extra 90 points that are spent aren't being spent on damage output.   For instance since the removal of templates Leman russes have taken a nose dive. However they are very durable so are still viable as durable heavy flamer carriers.

A leman russ is double the durability of a chimera and double the price, ergo its clear all the points spent are going towards improving durability.

However with the vendetta the points aren't all being spent on armour, but also on mobility and transport capacity.

 

This is clear as day that the vendetta chassis has the durability performance of a model with a much lower point cost. As you can see above the chassis isn't efficiently durable against anything stronger than a lasgun in comparison with a HWT.

 

I'm not saying that the Vendetta has rubbish durability it's just that points have clearly been allocated towards it being mobile and carrying troops as well - its not a stormraven after all. 


Edited by The Catachan Devil, 19 July 2017 - 06:45 PM.

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#380
mmimzie

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I think against big stuff the heavy armed storm raven matches up very well against a vendetta. Both have similar damage per points. I'd also say depending in how you equip the storm raven the vendetta comes out ahead or even in terms of durability. Also the storm raven is a transport as well.

Now onto durability. Your math is alittle weird I did similar calculations on the damage needed per point and got about a 15% increase in toughness for the HWT over the vandetta when you compare the most efficient weapons for the job. Mind you the Lasguns just have to get within 12" while the melta s need to get within 6". Which means thier is more that needs to be considered.

Assuming both of a similar range constraints as getting 2 infantry blocks might requir 2 transports or a turn of running, and the melta s might nerd a valkrie. I'd say the vendetta does pay a transport/mobility tax.

#381
leth

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I was not saying that you do that EVERY turn, I am saying that I do it early, especially with all the alpha strikes out there.  Much easier to bubble wrap 1-2 fliers than 18 HWT bases.

 

I also use it to reduce the number of drops I have by putting a lot of characters in it.


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#382
mmimzie

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I was not saying that you do that EVERY turn, I am saying that I do it early, especially with all the alpha strikes out there. Much easier to bubble wrap 1-2 fliers than 18 HWT bases.

I also use it to reduce the number of drops I have by putting a lot of characters in it.


Yeah so one cool thing you could do is gave the transport each carry infantry squads or even get teams, and if you know it'll let you go first you can put them all I the vandetta. However if you know your going second you can regular deploy the models in bubble wrap mode.

As transports go though I'd pro ably prefer the valkyrie if i want a transport over a vandetta. Mostly because the vendetta wants to be far and stationart, and if I'm moving the thing in gonna be sad I'm losing effectiveness on the model. Plus it becomes a very juicy target.

#383
The Catachan Devil

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I think against big stuff the heavy armed storm raven matches up very well against a vendetta. Both have similar damage per points. I'd also say depending in how you equip the storm raven the vendetta comes out ahead or even in terms of durability. Also the storm raven is a transport as well.

 

Oops, apparently the stormraven has the same toughness, wounds and armour save as a Vendetta. Poor example, though I'm sure it used to be tougher than a Vendetta?. 

 

 

And how is the maths "weird"? aha

 

 

 

I also use it to reduce the number of drops I have by putting a lot of characters in it.

 
I hadn't considered this idea. I like it thumbsup.gif
 
 

 


Edited by The Catachan Devil, 20 July 2017 - 09:53 AM.

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#384
Chris521

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FAQ was updated.  It gives a small nerf to flyer spam and clarifies that Pask can not order himself.

 

 

https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-2/



#385
Truesight

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Hats off to GW, those are some great balance changes.  Looking forward to a game with responsive rules.



#386
Halfpint100

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Also confirmed that you can table an opponent if they only have fliers on the board in the rule book one. interesting one to note



#387
Dr_Ruminahui

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Where are the new fliers rules?  I couldn't find them in the rulebook FAQ.

 

Inquisitor Psychologis Ruminahui



#388
Tyr13

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If youve only got flyers and fortifications left, you auto-lose the game.


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#389
Withershadow

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Where are the new fliers rules?  I couldn't find them in the rulebook FAQ.

 

Inquisitor Psychologis Ruminahui

Is that second part a signature?  If so, your Inquisitorial mandate has been voided for lack of attention to detail.  It is literally on the first page, at the very top of the second column (the sudden death rule clarification starts at the very bottom of first column). :P



#390
Lemondish

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Where are the new fliers rules?  I couldn't find them in the rulebook FAQ.

 

Inquisitor Psychologis Ruminahui

 

Page 215 – Sudden Death Change point 2 to read: ‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends immediately and their opponent automatically wins a crushing victory. When determining if a player has any units on the battlefield, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.

 

Moving on to other things, though...I do like that the Command Squad vox operator doesn't have to give up his hotshot las. Hoping that extends (eventually) to basic squad Sergeants and Vox operators as well. 


Edited by Lemondish, Yesterday, 12:48 AM.

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#391
Gen.Steiner

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Yes, it did rather puzzle me as to why the radioman had to give up his rifle for a pistol just because he was carrying a radio set! Glad it's been changed. Small but helpful.

Shame about the Tank Commanders though. Bloody weird rule; you'd think an officer could issue commands to their own crew!



#392
duz_

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DW Ruminahui I skimmed over the flyer changes too the first time. You dont expect to see those changes under the Sudden Death header.

Yeh I'm guessing that has to do with how the model was originally sculpted. Where its designed for him to hold the laspistol. I hope they change it too because all 5 of my Scion voxcasters have the rifle.

Gen.S. the worse part about that FAQ is actually how they went from a streamline simple rule set to starting to complicate it more with the FAQs. Hopefully in the codex it states Pask can't order himself. Otherwise its counter to the base rule that characters / units that have an ability affect themselves unless otherwise stated.

Still no clarification on the Valk / Vendetta disembark.
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#393
Galron

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Whats the question on the valk vendetta disembark? I wasn't aware it needed clarification. They jump out and move as normal but if you moved more than 20" don't roll a 1 per guy.Yeah, its something different than everyone else but it has the pretty high price of several guys per squad breaking their legs on the jump. I haven't had to use it yet because A: Valks are worthless as anything but tough but expensive transports, mainly because they don't carry enough weapons to really do more than a lucky hit here and there with their 5+ to hit when moving. B: For some reason I never disembark my guys until they are right in the opponents face and do so after the bird gets there thus no 9" away dropping. Its generally tough enough to last a turn provided there are other targets around to spread out the hits. Rightfully they always go after my Vultures and not the ineffectual shooting Valk. I probably would keep the same set up even if they nerfed it since it works for me anyway, but having the option is handy and I feel with the high cost of the plane, losing the ability should result in a price drop as well.


Yes, I am here all the time because this is the last 40k forum I can access from work. You would think they wanted me to do work or something....


#394
Gen.Steiner

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Yeh, the Valk/Ven disembark is fairly clear-cut.



#395
NatBrannigan

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We're just not used to Guard getting nice things so when there's a rule that looks good, we immediately assume it's a Typo!


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#396
Gen.Steiner

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Not as much as us Sisters of Battle players :P


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