8th Ed Tactics thread

[morroccomole]

It's very situational now. I'll try to make a crappy flow chart, just for a basic infantry squad supported by a Platoon Commander:

 

Your squad is charged by your opponent. Depending on casualties, on your turn you decide to: (Followed by an order)

• Fall back -> "Get Back in the Fight!"
• Stay stuck in -> "Fix Bayonets!"

You decide to charge an opponent. During his turn he:

• Decides to fall back: Ignore, or "FRFSRF"
• Stays stuck in -> See previous

 

I know this is oversimplified. It will always come down to controlling objectives, managing threats, and prioritizing which units get limited orders. But realize, the standard squad can actually stand up to one round of combat, unlike in 7th, so it makes the decision afterwards that much more difficult.

[leth]

Remember that we can still issue orders after falling back.  Also remember that when we heroic intervention our characters can not be targeted by the charging unit unless they declared a charge against that character.

 

So basically our characters can heroic intervention in, fight without worry, and then fallback and still cast orders.

 

Something to think about!

[Truesight]

A few nice battle reports coming in.  This one puts the face rush flamer guard on display as they kick the stuffing out of some Necrons.  Can't wait for the full release to give it a try myself.

 

 

Bullgryns look rather brutal as a meatshield.  Also running chimeras forward aggressively first turn then jumping out in rapid fire range looks really effective, and with their toughness, wounds and double heavy flamers they look quite hard to deal with as well.  Potential to overwhelm enemies with bodies and armour at the same time?

[duz_]

The FLG guys have really been talking up Guard. They've even said they think Scions are borderline broken OP. Theyve said that about a few units though.

[WarriorFish]

To be fair Stormies deserve it if that's true... just got to work on mine first :P

[Truesight]

Word of warning on Plasma this edition.  The way it seems to work now is on augmented 1's.  So, for example if you manage to find a +1 modifier to your hit roll it is impossible to overheat, as you will always be at a minimum of 2.  

 

However, for say our Leman russ sponsons, this can be disastrous.  Plasma cannons are heavy, so if you moved and fired at a Chimera that popped smoke you are overheating on 3's, for 6 mortal wounds and all your plasma weapons detonating.

 

Something to definitely keep in mind.

[duz_]

Yes, my understanding is +1 to hit = impossible to overheat, -1 to hit = possible to overheat on a 2+ etc...

 

[NatBrannigan]

Now I thought it was only on a natural roll of one? Have I seen that in the rules or is that a leftover from 7th lurking in my brain?

 

I mean it makes no sense for a Plasma Cannon to overheat because the target you're firing at is obscured by some smoke, right?

[duz_]

Listening to various pod/vid-casts that seems to be the case. Sounds screwy coming from 8th, but apparently those mechanics are similar in AOS.

 

Seems ok, remember you don't have to supercharge plasma!

[leth]

Yep, and so when determining synergies it is important to remember these things and it is a cool thing to remember for plasma over charging. 

 

Also remember that re-rolls happen BEFORE modifiers are applied.

Edited June 13, 2017 by leth

[Cap'm Heckus]

Lost 2 scions, a regular guardsman, and my rough rider sergeant to overcharged 1's this past Sunday. I kept thinking "surely I can't roll another.... dammit!"

[Brother Talarian]

Lost 2 scions, a regular guardsman, and my rough rider sergeant to overcharged 1's this past Sunday. I kept thinking "surely I can't roll another.... dammit!"

Nevermind what you lost, tell us about the battle and your thoughts on units/tactics 8th etc!

[Cap'm Heckus]

I'm typing this on the phone so please bear with me . My list consisted of:

 

HQs:

Company Commander

Primaris Psyker (power: Emperor's Gaze)

Punisher Tank Commander w/3 Heavy bolters

 

Troops:

2x infantry squad (vox, AC, plasma gun)

30 conscripts

 

Elites:

1Commissar, BP & chainsword

1Astropath (+1 armor save power)

5 storm troopers (2 plasma guns, plasma pistol)

 

FA:

8 Rough riders (2 Flamers, plasma pistol)

Hellhound with infernocannon and MM

 

Heavy:

LRBT (Battle cannon and Heavy Bolter)

HWT (3xlascannon)

 

The plan was 1000 points but they kept giving me extra because they couldn't make up their minds on what to take. It was the four way free-for-all mission with random player turn order and one central objective. 6x6 table, 5 turns, players deploy in table quarters, I think there is a rule about bribing players with command points but we forgot about it. My opponents were orks (mostly huge mobs), Mechanicum (Mostly Skitari with 2 squads of 2 castellan robots), and spacewolves ( he was deployed in the table corner opposite mine and so we never came into conflict ).

 

Turn one I advanced towards the objective with my tanks but the skitari dunecrawlers made short work of the tank commander before he had range to use the punisher. Orks attacked on the opposite flank but my conscripts with commissar and astropath held with hellhound back up.

 

Turn 2 skitari robots began their slow advance and evaporated my entire HWT and one infantry squad. Ork boss and flash gitz in a trukk advanced towards my wall of conscripts but failed to charge (60 lasgun shots netted 1 wound on the truck which his mekboy fixed). Things looked grim, but then my rough riders appeared and charged the 2 shooty castellans only loosing 2 from 18 overwatch shots. Between flamers, Smite, and charging we killed on robot. He killed no one. Scions drop into cover and begin sniping the dunecrawlers but I immediately lost the sarge and another plasma gun due to overcharging the plasma.

 

Turn 3:

LRBT begins taking wounds off of one of the dune crawlers but his tech-Magos apparently restores d3 a turn. Remaining Castellan withdraws and rangers kill 2 rough riders but I charge again taking wounds off of the robot, he kills 1 rider. Conscripts unleash 90-some lasgun shots (frfsrf) doing 2 wounds to the truck but the hellhound finishes it off. Trukk explodes (rolled the hard "6") killing 3 flash gits and the mekboy (hooray for "models slain on a roll of 1"). Remaining autocannon kills another flash git as does overcharged plasma (plasma gunner immediately dies).

 

Turn 4:

Castellated tries to finish the roughriders in melee but his gun hands make poor weapons managing only to do a single wound. Rough rider sarge died to overcharged pistol in the shooting phase. LRBT continues to trade wounds with the 2 dunecrawlers. Conscripts unleash another "wall of light" on the flash hits killing all but one forcing me direct the hellhounds shots at the remaining hit rather than the war boss and painboy. Remaining scions die to ranger fire. Ork player uses "da jump" to put nobz out between me and the skitari player (baffling decision, but there was nowhere in our back lines to drop them and he was avoiding the spacewolves how we're sitting in the objective by now).

 

Turns 5:

Last rough rider finally died when the castellan's little handler-guy finally joins in but we managed to tie up his phosphex guns for almost the entire game. Smite, the remaining half infantry squad, and ranger fire killed off the nobz. Conscripts and the hellhound kill the pain boy put a hurtin' on the war boss. The warboss charges to try and finish off a badly wounded hellhound but falls short by 2 wounds. Combined Fire from the LRBT and the spacewolves quad-las predator bring down a dunecrawler as wolves pour over the skitari linr killing a squad of rangers and the magos.

 

We think it was a spacewolf victory as he took the least beating and held the objective for 3 of 5 turns.

 

Closing thoughts:

• infantry squads need transports to protect them until they are needed.

• conscripts with a commissar, an astropath, and orders are quite durable. Had they been able to shoot at guys rather than the trukk then they would've been quite lethal.

• rough riders did me proud. The extra wound for soaking up shots was what really made them shine.

• orders were great.

• aside from "smite" the other powers I rolled were only so-so. Emperors gaze only has a range of 2d6 and I'd rather not get that close. +1 armor was a little more helpful.

• battlecannon was not the beast it used to be so I will need to try a few more guns.

 

Hope that helps. Oh and use your command points. I forgot about mine for the entire game. Something else to get used to.

 

Edit: scions were troops, not elites. Another thing to get used to. Also, there are pictures of my initial deployment and of my rough riders fighting robots on my WordPress page in the link below .

Edited June 13, 2017 by Cap'm Heckus

[steellegionnaire85]

Where did you guys get all this information? I am curious. I am in the process of rebuilding my guard army and want to build a competitive force. I don't want any misinformation or assumption to change how I kit out my tanks and infantry.

[leth]

Where did you guys get all this information? I am curious. I am in the process of rebuilding my guard army and want to build a competitive force. I don't want any misinformation or assumption to change how I kit out my tanks and infantry.

 

I would wait until the official release and day 1 FAQ before equiping things.  However PM me if you want the "unoffocial" indexes

[Cap'm Heckus]

Where did you guys get all this information? I am curious. I am in the process of rebuilding my guard army and want to build a competitive force. I don't want any misinformation or assumption to change how I kit out my tanks and infantry.

A lot of stores got "store copies" of the books a little over a week ago, I've been playing there and reading the books while hanging out after hours. It's a lot to take in in short bursts however.

 

That was my second 8th edition game. First one was my Templars.

[NatBrannigan]

Thanks for that report Heckus, you used your Rough Riders the way I see mine being used and it looks like it worked nicely!

 

 In hindsight, knowing that you would roll so many ones, would you still supercharge your plasma weapons? Worth the risk for the extra damage potential?

 

Just what was shot at your command tank for it to go down early? I thought it would take more than a couple of Dunecrawlers to take out a LRBT in one turn.

[Cap'm Heckus]

Yes , I would have overcharged in those situations as they were desperate attempts to bring down high-T multi-wound targets. Had I remembered "command points" it would have gone differently. Against single wound targets I would not overcharge.

 

I sadly do not know the names of Skitari weaponry but it was a high strength weapon that got d3 shots doing d6 wounds a pop and he had 2 crawlers firing at me. He rolled nothing but 5s and 6s on damage.

 

I have seen the value of weapons that do multiple wounds in one hit and why they upped the points cost on melta. Vehicles, even ork trukks (which used to disposable), survive a lot longer due to toughness/wounds over AV.

 

I will be adding a small deep striking melta-scion squad for exactly this reason perhaps with a few extra warm bodies to keep the meltaguns alive a little longer.

 

Last night I primed 3 more infantry squads with plasma guns and plasma pistols to be my mechanized vanguard along with my 2 All-flamer SWSs. They will likely be my new standard, replacing grenade launchers and naked sergeants. Plasma is just so cheap right now and really effective (-3 save). I'm also thinking "scattered platoon commanders" might become a thing for extra reroll commands and maybe another plasma pistol.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Cap'm Heckus

[Brother Talarian]

As Heckus mentioned, I was also thinking of having a 10 man scion squad with 4 melta in a Taurox prime rolling around taking out key targets.

 

Are you able to disembark if your vehicle is in combat? Charge the TP into another vehicle, keep it alive and from being shot. In his then he can disengage or not, removed shooting, disembark (can you in combat?) then blast away with 4 melta. The extra bodies are there to take the first 5(6) wounds.

 

Edit: they can either go hunting or play reactionary in my back line

Edited June 14, 2017 by Brother Talarian

[Brother Talarian]

Has anyone considered using transports as re-deployment tools?

 

As deployment now goes rotationally, I was thinking of leaving my transports, and units that would potentially go in the transports, set up last. This way, if they gonin transports I remove some drops, higher chance at first turn, or deploy seperatly. Now, if I were to reply seperatley i could have baiting units, but come my turn I pop everyone in a transport and zoom away 10-14". Depending on army composition I think it could work, needs fine tuning.

[Galron]

Looking at a couple odds and ends for my army, at least until the Elysians come out and I have to redo everything seeing as I am thinking a Vendetta is going to be 300ish points while my Vultures are going to be in the 180-200 points range which will shift points everywhere.

 

Valkyries look like perhaps one of the best transports in the game even though the cost on them has gone up to around 162 points the way I use them. Being able to move, drop guys off and they move makes guard potentially one of the more mobile armies, especially for the use of melta. I didn't want to use Storm Troopers this way but I have the models and don't have them to spare for Elysians right now and an individual scion command squad with 4 meltas is cheaper than a vet squad with three. The two command squads with maxed out melta and a scion commander, I gave mine a plasma pistol riding in a valk.

 

In my list these are the primary anti-armor punch, obviously for something really big. I haven't played 8th yet but I can already see my local dark angels player fielding his knight and this should end that guy really quick. Also would be decent for general armor parking lots. In addition I have two more valks with Vet squads, one meltax3, one plasmax4(pistol).

 

After the first time you do this, and once this becomes a general tactic, lets be real we were all thinking it, it will cause opponents to start protectively bubble wrapping everything important whenever they face guard aircraft which will allow you to dictate the pace of the game.

 

I see the first FAQ quickly putting an end to this as in my opnion it appears to be an exploit. Also see it clarifying the whole rolling 1s thing. I am in the natural 1 only camp for overheating as your opponent hiding in cover is not going to make your plasma overheat. Flamers too I see getting a nerf as they can somehow take down aircraft.

[Brother Talarian]

Can you order mortars to re-roll to wound? They're infantry... aren't they? Or to hit for that matter...

[Galron]

They are infantry, so yes, both orders should work I think

[micdicdoc]

@Heckus, interesting write up, thanks for sharing! I'm interested to hear, in particular, how you found autocannons? I know that in 7th they were the go to weapon for guard blobs, but how about now? Do you think they are still the go to heavy weapon for our bog standard guard squads?

 

Also nice to hear about the success of the hellhound, the more I hear about this tank the more excited I get to using it on the table again! Do you think we will start to see a lot more of it on the table? From what I have seen so far it seems quite versatile.

[micahwc]

As far as autocannons go,

 

• Against a toughness 8 or 9 target, heavy bolters are more effective than autocannons just due to the number of shots fired. Both will wound on 5+, but 3 shots versus 2 in favor of the heavy bolter.  Wrong, autocannons get a very slight edge.
• Toughness 6 and 7 targets will be wounded easier by the autocannon

 

In general, the heavy bolter will be better just cause of the number of shots. They are also about half as expensive as autocannons.

 

Edit: Numbers.

 

BS4+ shooting at a T8 target with a 3+ save

 

• Autocannon: 2 shots x .5 for bs 4+, x.33 for 5+ to wound, x .66 for armor, x2 for damage = .4356 unsaved damage on average
• Heavy Bolter: 3 shots x.5 for bs 4+, x.33 for 5+ to wound, x.66 for armor, x 1 for damage =.3267 unsaved damage on average

Autocannon barely wins

 

 

BS4+ shooting at a T7 target with a 3+ save

• Autocannon: 2 shots x.5 for bs4+, x.5 for 4+ to wound, x.66 for armor, x2 for damage = .6666 unsaved damage on average
• Heavy Bolter: 3 shots x.5 for bs4+, x.33 for 5+ to wound, x.66 for armor, x1 for damage =.3267

Autocannon is about doubly effective for roughly double the point cost.

Edited June 14, 2017 by micahwc