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8th Ed Tactics thread


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Also interesting to note, is that a heavy bolter at bs3+ is about equal to an autocannon at bs4+ . So a Veteran squad with a heavy bolter is about as effective as an infantry squad with an autocannon against T8. But The Veteran squad costs 68 points to the infantry squads 55.

 

Good point about the damage, against targets with only 1 wound the heavy bolter is better. Against anything with multiple wounds the autocannon is better.

 

 

Let's look at MEQs instead of vehicles.

 

T4 is wounded on 4+ by the heavy bolter and 3+ by the autocannon.

  • Autocannon:  .2178 wounds
  • Heavy Bolter: .3267 wounds

 

Against 1 wound models you want a heavy bolter for the increased number of shots. Against enemies with multiple wounds you probably want the autocannon in general, unless the target is low toughness.

Edited by micahwc
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Has anyone considered using transports as re-deployment tools?

 

As deployment now goes rotationally, I was thinking of leaving my transports, and units that would potentially go in the transports, set up last. This way, if they gonin transports I remove some drops, higher chance at first turn, or deploy seperatly. Now, if I were to reply seperatley i could have baiting units, but come my turn I pop everyone in a transport and zoom away 10-14". Depending on army composition I think it could work, needs fine tuning.

Consider using deep strike reserves first during deployment. You have to set them up in deep strike so that counts as a drop. You can force your opponent to show his hand, he can have 3 or 4 units on the board before you start deploying on the board. Lets you react a little to whatever he is doing.

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I've been looking at Valkyries. They are one of my favorite GW models and I've wanted to paint one since they came out. I made an offer on ebay for 2 of them and I hope I get them.

 

I was thinking about their weapons. Another thread mentioned that strength 5 was the break point for being able to damage anything in the game on a 5+. A Valkyrie with multi-laser, twin heavy bolters, and multiple rocket pods can fire between 11 and 23 strength 5+ shots a turn for 167 points. It will average 16 shots a turn, all with a 36" range which combined with the Valkyries movement will mean that it wont have a problem shooting what it wants to.

 

I'm trying to figure out their most efficient unit to transport. Options include:

  • 3 scion command squads with 4 plasma/melta/flamers/volleyguns. You have to drop more than 9" away from a target with grav chute insertion, so you could have 12 rapid firing plasma guns or 12 melta shots. Plasma would be 192 points for this. This is actually cheaper than using a guard command squad by 4 points for some reason, despite having better armor saves.
  • 2 special weapon squads with plasma/melta. 108 points for 6 plasma guns with a lower BS. I think if I'm going to pay the points for the transport I should go all in.
  • Infantry squad with a commissar and a platoon commander. Could be fun for some FRFSRF shenanigans. Except that at 9" away you only get 2 shots each.
  • What I will probably do: 10 scions, 4 special weapons, a tempestor prime, and maybe a commissar. Lord Commisar with plasma pistol and power fist, tempestor prime with plasma pistol and power fist
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My offer was accepted so I've come up with what to fill them with using models I already have.

 

20 scions, 2 Lord Commisars, 2 officers of the fleet. I think that's actually kind of fluffy. I've got one officer of the fleet in each Valkyrie to act as a combat controller, 20 scions who deploy with grav chutes in fluff, and 2 Lord Commisars to oversee everything. 5 of the scions are my command squad and tempestor prime, the other 15 are just regular scions with melta guns. It clocks in at 854 points.

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Grav chute insertion allows your unit to move afterwards, so move up and get that 2d6 for your melts shots or flamers in range.

 

<p>

 

I've been looking at Valkyries. They are one of my favorite GW models and I've wanted to paint one since they came out. I made an offer on ebay for 2 of them and I hope I get them.

 

I was thinking about their weapons. Another thread mentioned that strength 5 was the break point for being able to damage anything in the game on a 5+. A Valkyrie with multi-laser, twin heavy bolters, and multiple rocket pods can fire between 11 and 23 strength 5+ shots a turn for 167 points. It will average 16 shots a turn, all with a 36" range which combined with the Valkyries movement will mean that it wont have a problem shooting what it wants to.

 

I'm trying to figure out their most efficient unit to transport. Options include:

  • 3 scion command squads with 4 plasma/melta/flamers/volleyguns. You have to drop more than 9" away from a target with grav chute insertion, so you could have 12 rapid firing plasma guns or 12 melta shots. Plasma would be 192 points for this. This is actually cheaper than using a guard command squad by 4 points for some reason, despite having better armor saves.
  • 2 special weapon squads with plasma/melta. 108 points for 6 plasma guns with a lower BS. I think if I'm going to pay the points for the transport I should go all in.
  • Infantry squad with a commissar and a platoon commander. Could be fun for some FRFSRF shenanigans. Except that at 9" away you only get 2 shots each.
  • What I will probably do: 10 scions, 4 special weapons, a tempestor prime, and maybe a commissar. Lord Commisar with plasma pistol and power fist, tempestor prime with plasma pistol and power fist
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The Valkyrie is an excellent weapons platform in theory (Hellstrikes are no longer one-use so them & Lascannon for a tank-buster, MRP and Heavy Bolters for infantry-killing), but they suffer the -1 To Hit penalty for moving-and-firing Heavy Weapons - especially in Supersonic mode where they have a minimum move value (switching to Hover to not have to move means you can position one turn and shoot the next, but lose Hard-to-Hit and Airborne, which are fantastic rules).

 

Actually, thinking as I type, that may be a very viable strategy - use Supersonic mode to position in one turn, benefiting from Hard to Hit and Airborne to protect the great bulk, potentially using Grav-Chute Insertion to pop any transported squad(s) out. Next turn, switch to Hover mode and stay still to get the full advantage of BS4+ (re-rolling 1s if you drop an Officer of the Fleet off) on all the good guns. In your opponents turn the Valkyrie may not have the cool special rules, but it is still T7 with 14(!) Wounds - that is going to take some killing, and it cannot even be locked in Close Combat thanks to Fly. Next turn as next turn you can just pop back into Supersonic mode and fly off, repositioning for the turn after (remember: you can shoot through your own hull and draw LoS to models behind you so the 90-degree turn isn't as punishing as it appears).

 

I would opt for either 2 Command Squads or 1 Veteran Squad, plus Commissar, or 10 Scions plus Officer, and then you have a seat for an Officer of the Fleet if you want to use one (as he effects a bubble you can get away with only using 1, unless you are spreading your units out). My reasoning is that Vets and Command Squads can have orders relayed to them via Vox-Casters by other Officers of the same Regiment, whilst Scions have a unique Regiment-type and can only be Ordered by one of their own. Commissars might benefit the regular guys more, as Command Squads can't take Morale casualties well and both them and Veterans have worse armour than the Scions (if not using Scion Officer/OotF then by all means use a (Lord) Commissar for the Scions too).

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Good question, also the weapon in the points list is ""Hellstrike Missiles" plural. So you only pay for it once, but it can only shoot once is my understanding. So Valks probably are not very efficient for anti-tank, but a possible 23 shots with rocket pods, multi-laser, and heavy bolters will be pretty handy for hordes.

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So for abusive tactics, ministorum priests have the rule "Warhymns" which works on any astra militarum or adepta ministorum infantry within 6" and gives +1 attack to them. Ministorum priests are adepta ministorum infantry, so as written, it works on priests. A priest is a unit within 6" of itself, so a priest can give itself +1 attack. 3 priests within 6 inches of each other can all give each other +1 attack. There is no limit RAW for how many times this can stack. Priests are 35 points.

 

You can stack a bunch of priests behind some conscripts or infantry and give them a ridiculously absurd amount of attacks in close combat.

 

Edit: All of our characters are also Astra Militarum infantry. So that Lord Commisar who hits on 2+ can get extra attacks from priests. A Lord Commisar with a bunch of eviscerater priests would be really mean due to the damage they can do and the extra attacks they get. Works with Ogryns as well.

Edited by micahwc
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Valks have a minimum movement of 20", no? I was under the impression that hover meant that they move 20". Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sorely tempted to purchase a valk.

 

Are you guys under the impression that hover grants a move char of 20", meaning they can move 0-20"?

Yes. When they hover they have no minimum move speed.  

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So for abusive tactics, ministorum priests have the rule "Warhymns" which works on any astra militarum or adepta ministorum infantry within 6" and gives +1 attack to them. Ministorum priests are adepta ministorum infantry, so as written, it works on priests. A priest is a unit within 6" of itself, so a priest can give itself +1 attack. 3 priests within 6 inches of each other can all give each other +1 attack. There is no limit RAW for how many times this can stack. Priests are 35 points.

 

You can stack a bunch of priests behind some conscripts or infantry and give them a ridiculously absurd amount of attacks in close combat.

 

Edit: All of our characters are also Astra Militarum infantry. So that Lord Commisar who hits on 2+ can get extra attacks from priests. A Lord Commisar with a bunch of eviscerater priests would be really mean due to the damage they can do and the extra attacks they get. Works with Ogryns as well.

Not quite true. Look at the wording of warhymns. You can add one to the attacks characteristic of all models in keywords units that are within 6 inches of any friendly ministorum priests. One bonus attack, no matter how many priests you have. 

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The Guard Forgeworld index is up for pre-order.

 

I was really hoping for rules for the Leman Russ Incinerator for 40k, but alas it's still stuck in 30k! Amazing looking tank and I'm sure it would be utterly brutal, c'est la vie.

 

Vendettas are in there of course :)

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<p>

 

I've been looking at Valkyries. They are one of my favorite GW models and I've wanted to paint one since they came out. I made an offer on ebay for 2 of them and I hope I get them.

 

I was thinking about their weapons. Another thread mentioned that strength 5 was the break point for being able to damage anything in the game on a 5+. A Valkyrie with multi-laser, twin heavy bolters, and multiple rocket pods can fire between 11 and 23 strength 5+ shots a turn for 167 points. It will average 16 shots a turn, all with a 36" range which combined with the Valkyries movement will mean that it wont have a problem shooting what it wants to.

 

I'm trying to figure out their most efficient unit to transport. Options include:

  • 3 scion command squads with 4 plasma/melta/flamers/volleyguns. You have to drop more than 9" away from a target with grav chute insertion, so you could have 12 rapid firing plasma guns or 12 melta shots. Plasma would be 192 points for this. This is actually cheaper than using a guard command squad by 4 points for some reason, despite having better armor saves.
  • 2 special weapon squads with plasma/melta. 108 points for 6 plasma guns with a lower BS. I think if I'm going to pay the points for the transport I should go all in.
  • Infantry squad with a commissar and a platoon commander. Could be fun for some FRFSRF shenanigans. Except that at 9" away you only get 2 shots each.
  • What I will probably do: 10 scions, 4 special weapons, a tempestor prime, and maybe a commissar. Lord Commisar with plasma pistol and power fist, tempestor prime with plasma pistol and power fist

Imagine for a moment you open your turn by hovering and then move the max with that profile (20''), unpacking 12 models onto the board along the way, maybe putting them in close for some rapid fire. Remember, it's disembarking, not deploying, so that squad can drop within 9'', then move a bit closer to get into full rapid fire range.

 

"But Lemondish, that is dumb. Scions will die next turn!"

 

Then, once the shooting stops, you charge with the Valk to tie up any squads that might retaliate hard against your units you dropped in deep. Now you lost hard to hit and fly due to hover, but you can't be shot at now and hovering ends at the start of movement when you regain Fly, fallback, and can still shoot.

 

You avoided a lot of the heat you'd get if you were open to being shot at, and if you choose the right type of unit to get busy with, you might not lose a whole lot of wounds. Blast away again with the Scions next turn with impunity. Any foot sloggers or vehicles should be just about to crash into the enemy after two turns off movement.

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Valkyrie pilot sees the scions about to take fire and yells to his crew chief, "fix bayonets CHARGE!".

 

Edit: The silly side of me wants to model a bayonet on the front end of a valk now. Or give the pilot a chainsword.

Edited by micahwc
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Along the same vein, being attacked in close combat by assault marines seems like a stretch to me as well. If it's zooming along at 30-40" per turn, how is an assault marine going to hit it with a sword as it passes?

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....it's an abstraction. God Emperor, why would you interpret every rule as a completely literal event?

 

In Mosul we had a Kiowa squadron that liked to hover up close to the action and shoot at hostiles with an M4 while hanging out of the door. They had a perfectly good 21st century gunship, but the carbine was just more fun and, sometimes, better for the troops on the ground they were supporting.

 

That's what fliers in melee are: an abstraction of door gunners, crazy pilots, and battlefield hazards that don't fit neatly in a weapon profile. The whole game is built on this same principle. You don't really visualize warfare in the 41st millennium as a bunch of dudes lining up and taking turns firing exactly 2 shots at a single enemy do you?

Edited by Brother Captain Ed
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And Krash you're not listening. Because it's not possible for a valkyrie to literally swing a sword, it's an abstraction of a similar effect using preexisting rules.

 

You are playing a game where you line up little toy soldiers and pretend to shoot each other. Why does your imagination come to a hard stop at an arbitrary point?

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We are still bringing a fragile aircraft into hand to hand. Aircraft crash because a rock off the runway gets sucked into the intakes on an engine. Someone throws a chunk of ceramite near the intake and boom. Aircraft have zero reason to be able to fight in hand to hand. Hell, they are 50 feet in the air even in hover mode, how are they fighting in hand to hand in the first place?

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I think the "drive me closer" meme needs an update!

 

When my Valk gets into combat, which I'm sure it will at some point, I'll be thinking it's zooming low using the force of it's jets to make the enemy crouch down, blowing up gusts of sand and grit blinding them temporarily. That makes a bit of sense I think.

 

I've also made a solemn oath to never fire a flamer and an enemy flier. That's just mad...

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