Primaris Blood Angels' Geneseed - Dark Imperium Spoilers

[Arkangilos]

Have to admit, I read it as *some* primaris using traitor and expunged gene seed existed and were performing as desired, but very very small numbers purely for testing.

Right, they were prototyping, so not in production. Then Guilliman said no. Therefore the whole, "they were getting away with it and no one had a problem" thought is wrong. There was a test, and he was stopped because they did have a problem.

[Helias_Tancred]

Plus Cawl literally has been breaking their geneseed apart, and it's much more prevailant now than it was during the GC.

 

I'm SO glad he has been more successful at it than that bastard scum Fabius Bile!

[Sawtooth]

Part of the Blood Angels flaw is psychic imprint, though. Even with perfect genetic tinkering I can't see Cawl being able to completely eliminate the issue.

[tychobi]

I can not stomach this fluff.  Some shmuck whips up a super duper space marine "improving" on the crowning achievement of the God Emperor?  No.  Sorry.  Just no.  For me I will be editing all this nonsense into "they came up with a new power armor".  That I can live with.  Bigger better space marine armor.  Same marines inside.  True followers of the Emperor do NOT mess with geneseeds.  I feel better having cleared up this fluff miss print. 

[Arkhanist]

For what it's worth, the geneseed has degraded after 10,000 years - most chapters have at least one broken organ implant by now. Mutation, replication errors, faulty ritualistic implant techniques... the chapters have to tithe a percentage of their seed to terra, to check it for passable purity and found new chapters. The BA already were filtering out their best seed to send to Terra, to try and hide the flaw. Cawl also nicked their 'transform in a life-support coffin' method. No matter how low your replication error rate, a looooong time will always hit it hard.

 

If all cawl had done was use the eldar-revived Roboute as a template (he is after all, the emperor's own direct handiwork!) to find the most unborked geneseed stashed in the terran vaults, and maaaaaybe a few simple repairs using the known good example, you'd end up with a stock of 'clean' marine geneseed much closer to the emperor's original vision - and superior to anything but the very best current marines.

 

The emperor also designed (some) marines to be diplomats, garrisons, artists; he planned that once the great crusade was over, marines would need to settle into a mostly defensive garrison force - he also planned to eliminate the need for warp travel altogether and neuter chaos outright. For all we know, the emperor planned to eventually replace marines with custodes after the great crusade, much as thunder warriors were 'retired'.

 

His original plan didn't include the heresy or 10k years of a shattered imperium desperately trying to survive against traitor legions on top of disorganised xenos threats - seeing the future is hard, and even the emperor himself admitted he couldn't foresee all the things that the chaos Gods would attempt to stop his plans, and he had to rely on others to carry out the work.

 

So you could even argue that a couple of extra war-specific organs isn't improving on the emperors original vision, just tweaking it a little based upon 10k years of experience. And no doubt inferior to anything the master of mankind would have done himself. The custodes were hand-designed by the emperor, and widely accepted to be superior than that of the mass-produced legions, so it is possible.

 

Then the MK X armour design that's been worked on for a few millennia. MK IV is generally considered the best design of all of them, but it was complex and time consuming to produce. In the heresy, simpler designs were needed that could survive heavy attrition and loss of supply lines. MK VII was designed under time pressure during the heresy and its tough resource constraints - mars itself was under siege! If you could take MK IV and simplify its construction without quite the rushed compromises that MK VI/VII involved, maybe tie in some of the strength of TDA and MK III and you'd end up with something very much like MK X.

 

Taken all together; tougher marines, when the threat to the Imperium has never been greater.

 

A Roboute reboot, if you will.

 

 

[appiah4]

*snip*

 

The things people will believe when they are desperate to clutch onto a denial..

[Blindhamster]

Just quite with the whining, he isn't in denial, he laid out valid points.

 

Marines are NOT the pinnacle of what the emperor could make, they were designed to be mass produced for a certain time with a certain goal in mind.

 

Custodes are superior to marines in just about every way, which makes total sense as they were hand crafted and had a more specific purpose.

 

Cawl has just applied logic to create marines somewhere in the middle... over the course of 10k years.

 

The group working on better marines with corax achieved far more in months... it was only the alpha legion introducing chaos taint to the mix that ruined that.

[appiah4]

Just quite with the whining, he isn't in denial, he laid out valid points.

 

Marines are NOT the pinnacle of what the emperor could make, they were designed to be mass produced for a certain time with a certain goal in mind.

 

Custodes are superior to marines in just about every way, which makes total sense as they were hand crafted and had a more specific purpose.

 

Cawl has just applied logic to create marines somewhere in the middle... over the course of 10k years.

 

The group working on better marines with corax achieved far more in months... it was only the alpha legion introducing chaos taint to the mix that ruined that.

 

Right off the bat, I'm no more whining than you are delusional, so I advise we don't make the matter personal.

 

Second, Marines ARE the pinnacle of what the Emperor had in mind with the goals he had.  Marines today have the same goals they did 10,000 years ago.  I mean, read your own words: To be mass produced for a certain time for a certain goal in mind.  Does that sound like what Roboute Guilliman and Belisarius Cawl are doing?  It is exactly what they are doing.  Ergo, Cawl has improved upon the Emperor's achievement.

 

Third, yes, Custodes are superior to Marines.  After all, they are NOT Marines, so what the :cuss does that even imply?  Greater Daemons of Khorne are also superior to Marines.  What is the takeaway here?

 

You can try to dodge the issue with as many strawmen as you like.  The bottomline is that a nobody schmuck called Cawl was invented as a :cussty plot device to sell a new line of Space Marines by having him improve on what the :cussing God Emperor of Mankind could not.  You can be fine with it, or not.  But you can't say it didn't happen.  That's denial, plain and simple.

[Blindhamster]

yeah okay

[Blindhamster]

actually, you know what...

We all get that you hate the turn of events and that you want to rage against the machine, but the thread was to talk about the effect the primaris type might have on the blood angels gene seed, and in-setting acceptance of them.

But It just feels like whenever i see posts from you on the topic, its you complaining about the very existence of them and how you dont agree with the writing... fair enough, you dont like it. Maybe make a thread to discuss that and what you'd have done instead? Might even be an interesting topic to discuss properly.

 

p.s.

The things people will believe when they are desperate to clutch onto a denial..

Was pretty personal in the first place.


on the topic - I suspect we wont see much change in lore, perhaps less occurrences (or no occurrences) of blood angels succumbing to the red thirst and becoming the bestial creatures supposedly stored in the tower on baal?

[Jolemai]

Knock it off folks.

[sockwithaticket]

 

on the topic - I suspect we wont see much change in lore, perhaps less occurrences (or no occurrences) of blood angels succumbing to the red thirst and becoming the bestial creatures supposedly stored in the tower on baal?

I'll be very disappointed with that to be honest. The Blood Angels (and successors) duality is a massive part of what makes them interesting; if the darkness in their nature recedes or even ceases to be, what are they?

 

I wouldn't mind the flaw seemingly being resolved and then resurfacing a vengeance and the Primaris marines end up proving more unstable than regular.

[Sun Reaver]

 

 

on the topic - I suspect we wont see much change in lore, perhaps less occurrences (or no occurrences) of blood angels succumbing to the red thirst and becoming the bestial creatures supposedly stored in the tower on baal?

I'll be very disappointed with that to be honest. The Blood Angels (and successors) duality is a massive part of what makes them interesting; if the darkness in their nature recedes or even ceases to be, what are they?

 

I wouldn't mind the flaw seemingly being resolved and then resurfacing a vengeance and the Primaris marines end up proving more unstable than regular.

 

 

I truly believe, from my understanding in the books, that the "flaw" was not cured. In fact, Cawl states that these "flaws" were purposely fully implemented by the Emperor. This means, the red thirst will still be around. As for the black rage, any son of Sangunius, regardless of how he is made into one, feel those effects. 

 

I think we will be good here. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard Primaris marines will be coming. Especially if GW does plan on replacing all the regular marines over the course of the next couple years. 

[Blindhamster]

I hope you guys are right! Very much interested to see where things go, big part of why I hope devastation of Baal covers some of this topic!

 

 

I think we will benefit there with guy Haley being the author of that as well as dark imperium.

 

Dark imperium was enjoyable and I loved Dante so... fingers crossed

Edited June 15, 2017 by Blindhamster

[tkni]

 

 

Weirdly, how does Guilliman even know about the Thirst? Sangy kept it a secret from almost everyone.

In the HH novels, Sanguinius has kept it secret thus far but we are still a way from the Siege of Terra so he may confide in Roboute yet.

 

Alternatively, RG may learn about the flaw after Sanguinius's death. 7 of the Loyalist Legions still had their Primarchs after the end of Heresy to help them rebuild. The Iron Hands had already adapted to the loss of Ferrus. The BAs were still on Terra and RG may have taken a hand in helping them rebuild. With half the HH still so to be told, a Century of warfare after that and then 112 years since his resurrection, we don't know how much RG is aware of at this point.

Dorn and Khan would know about it if anyone, I think.

 

My suspicion is that when Sanguinius gets killed by Horus, it causes every living Blood Angel to basically pass out: with some disastrous effects as the Siege is in its precarious final moments. But then when they start "rebooting" they go "full psycho" as almost an entire Legion and lay a hurtin' on the forces that serves as the centerpiece of what will become the Scouring.

 

So of course when Dorn and Khan are panting after the battle, with the Emperor installed in the Golden Throne, they look over at Raldoran and Azkaellon who have the truth-serum-effect of grief as they pack up Sanguinius's body, and ask ":cuss was that?" And Rald and Azk let the secret out, b/c to them there's nothing more to hide at that point. And Dorn and Khan are like "oh snap." Then RG, Lion, and Russ arrive on Terra and get the memo about the whole "tip toe around the BA" thing and they all agree to keep it quiet, especially given their respect and admiration for Sanguinius, most especially his-ditch attack on Horus himself.

 

Azkaellon becomes the golden doom of the traitors turning his guilt and despair into an intense fury (even by 40k standards of rage) unseen by the Imperium. Amit, on the other hand, becomes the shield that will never break that humanity can rely on. Raldoran stays the even-keeled, quiet bad- he always has been and is the cornerstone the Sons of Sanguinius can rely on above all else.

 

#notaleak #speculation #Mondaymorningdaydreaming

 

 

It's actually mentioned explicitly in the novel, and isn't remotely as interesting:

 

“What of those gene-lines with more deeply ingrained flaws?’ asked Guilliman. ‘The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves?’ Cawl’s research, and his own reading, had uncovered dangerous faults that the sons of both gene-lines in question had done their best to hide.”

[Helias_Tancred]

 

Plus Cawl literally has been breaking their geneseed apart, and it's much more prevailant now than it was during the GC.

 

I'm SO glad he has been more successful at it than that bastard scum Fabius Bile!

 

 

Of course that reply was influenced by having JUST read Angel Exterminatus!

 

LOL.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

Plus Cawl literally has been breaking their geneseed apart, and it's much more prevailant now than it was during the GC.

Yeah, I mean the Knights of Blood background is even that Mars tried to create a BA successor chapter without the flaw and for a while it looked like they succeeded before it came back even worse than before. To actually try something like that they kinda have to know about it in the first place. :D

Sorry for the threadomancy, but just thought I'd clarify that it was the Lamenters that were an experiment in trying to 'breed out' the Flaw, and they ended up with their bad luck curse, and it seems are now pretty much extict. Guess that's what happens when you go against the Emperors vision. ;)

[Xenith]

 

 

Plus Cawl literally has been breaking their geneseed apart, and it's much more prevailant now than it was during the GC.

Yeah, I mean the Knights of Blood background is even that Mars tried to create a BA successor chapter without the flaw and for a while it looked like they succeeded before it came back even worse than before. To actually try something like that they kinda have to know about it in the first place.

Sorry for the threadomancy, but just thought I'd clarify that it was the Lamenters that were an experiment in trying to 'breed out' the Flaw, and they ended up with their bad luck curse, and it seems are now pretty much extict. Guess that's what happens when you go against the Emperors vision.

 

 

Indeed, and there is enough stuff there to insinuate that the dark and cursed foundings were actually part of Cawl's experiments.

 

 

 

Second, Marines ARE the pinnacle of what the Emperor had in mind with the goals he had.  Marines today have the same goals they did 10,000 years ago.  I mean, read your own words: To be mass produced for a certain time for a certain goal in mind.  Does that sound like what Roboute Guilliman and Belisarius Cawl are doing?  It is exactly what they are doing.  Ergo, Cawl has improved upon the Emperor's achievement.

 

I disagree here. I've expanded more fully in the similar thread in Amicus, but I believe that the Primarch had to rush the last stage of the Astartes project. It's mentioned in numerous places throught 40k lore that Chaos stealing the primarchs threw a spanner in the works. The Emperor only begins creating the Astartes after the Primarchs were whisked away, and Big E goes from a Primarch project literally in it's infancy to a 100,000 strong first legion in what? a decade? Less? Seeing as it takes a 40k marine a decade to become a marine, this screams of a rushed project, as he knew Chaos was onto him, so he had to move fast. The very fact that the heresy occurred showed that the Emperor's marines were not perfect. 

 

 

The bottomline is that a nobody schmuck called Cawl was invented as a :cussty plot device to sell a new line of Space Marines by having him improve on what the :cussing God Emperor of Mankind could not.  You can be fine with it, or not.  But you can't say it didn't happen.  That's denial, plain and simple.

 

Again, see above. The Emperor got 90% of the way to 'pinnacle astartes' in 10 years. Cawl took 10,000 to add a couple of extra % onto that. Cawl didn't start from scratch.

 

I agree Cawl is totally deus ex mechanica. Literally. O ris that the Emperor.

[Karhedron]

I agree, the Astartes were definitely not the pinnacle of the Emperor's achievements. Look at the genetic problems that were evident from the start in the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children. The Blood Angels and Space Wolves also have noticeable defects although these seem to have become more pronounced over the millennia rather than being obvious from the outset.

 

The Custodes seem to be much closer to perfection as they generally seem to overpower Space Marines (unless the plot dictates otherwise) and have not been shown to have built-in flaws. The Thunder Warriors were made for the unification of Terra and expired pretty much soon after that. The Astartes were built for the Great Crusade and would not have been needed after that, at least not in anything like the same numbers.

 

Cawl has not surpassed the Emperor. He has taken a tool that the Emperor intended to last for a few centuries and given it a life-extension and upgrade program that took him 9000+ years to accomplish. Let's face it, he had massive resources and millennia at his disposal, he could have probably accomplished quite a lot in that time by simple trial and error.

[Spagunk]

From what I read, Cawl basically got handed most everything to him before G man went into stasis. I think it was said in the new rule book? Not sure but I definitely saw that Cawl was handed the same keys that Corax was given and basically had to fumble around with it for a number of years (a hint of the cursed founding I think). But his subjects were all post-crusade "volunteers" (in the mandatory kind of way). I mean it is still a bit of a gimme for Cawl's story but it at least makes some sense, even if it was a literal plot device.

[Panzer]

 

 

Plus Cawl literally has been breaking their geneseed apart, and it's much more prevailant now than it was during the GC.

Yeah, I mean the Knights of Blood background is even that Mars tried to create a BA successor chapter without the flaw and for a while it looked like they succeeded before it came back even worse than before. To actually try something like that they kinda have to know about it in the first place.

Sorry for the threadomancy, but just thought I'd clarify that it was the Lamenters that were an experiment in trying to 'breed out' the Flaw, and they ended up with their bad luck curse, and it seems are now pretty much extict. Guess that's what happens when you go against the Emperors vision.

 

Both actually. They didn't do it just once but the cursed founding was were they REALLY :cuss ed up.

Knights of Blood also don't have a bad luck curse.

At some point it simply turned out that they lack any real control over the curse which is even more tragic since at first it seemed like Mars succeeded and they got rid of the curse for good (whether Red Thirst or Black Rage is not exactly known due not much fluff about them existing so far but my guess would be the Red Thirst).

[Sun Reaver]

So, does anyone think any of the named BA characters will ungerdo the Primaris treatment? I can't see GW phasing out the current named, space marine characters - they have too much history and are beloved. (Think Dante, Seth, Calgar, Azrael, Khan, Shrike, etc) 

 

In terms of the BA side, I think there are two popular candidates: Dante and Seth. 

 

After reading the novel Dante by Guy Haley, we come to know that the burden of the BA, their flaw, and many other worries are weighing heavily upon Dante. He is finally feeling old, perhaps not physically, but mentally. Dante also believes that he is the "golden figure" that defends the Imperium and the Emperor; so to ensure his existence, he might take the treatment. 

 

I also believe the Flesh Tearers will not only wholeheartedly accept the Primaris marines into their ranks, a majority will probably undergo the treatment as well. This fills the sorely depleted ranks and ushers in a whole new generation of marines who won't fall to the rage as easily due to their "fresher" gene-seed. They won't see the side effects of severe gene-seed degradation that has occurred over the last 10,000 years. Seth, especially might do so to ensure that he is upholding his promise to Dante - that he will make sure his chapter clears its questionable history and finally becomes the respected name it once was. 

 

I wonder how else the Primaris marines will improve/impact the Sons of Sangunius. 

[Sawtooth]

I think whoever has the oldest models will become Primaris :P

[LutherMax]

Experimental primaris of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 20th are showing no signs of problems including Chaos corruption.

Wow, hold up. Heretic Legions gene seed showing no signs of problems including chaos corruption? Awesome.

Well I'm sure the traitor legions gene seed didn't show any corruption originally either but the individual Marines still got corrupted as we all know. :D

Wait a second - Chaotic corruption is genetic? The traitor Legions were pre-disposed to turn to Chaos?! I never knew...

[dread05]

That's mostly conspiracy theories I think. Some of the traitor primarchs turned to chaos for stupid reasons. Magnus to save his legion from annihilation after breaking the golden throne in his atempt to warn the Emperor about Horus, Fulgrim was corrupted by a demonic sword, Perturabo because he was afraid of the Emperor's reproach after a massacre his legion commited, Alpharius because of some prophecy that said that if  Horus won the heresy, the chaos gods would loose the war, or something like that. Even the primarchs who were predisposed to turn into chaos had a reason other than genetics. Mortation hated psychers with a passion, Angron hated the emperor for not letting him die with the rest of the gladiators (also the butcher's nails :cussed him up) and Curze had somewhat of a bipolar dissorder.