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8th Edition DW Tactica


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leth

leth

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Hello Everyone, with having most of the rules I wanted to start an indepth thread about the role that DW will play in an imperial army. In my opinion, running pure DW is not going to be competitive. The game designers have made clear with this edition is that any army/unit of the Imperium occupies a specific niche at any given time. Each army has its role to play in fighting the greater battle. Knights are not designed to deal with hordes, their firepower per point is very low. Lasguns (despite arguments to the contrary) are not designed to deal with land raiders, the volume of fire is just not effective application of firepower for the points.

 

Role of the Deathwatch in imperial armies

 

We are the masters of specialization within squads and we need to take advantage of that fact to be successful. We are no longer penalized for taking a unit with a mishmash of upgrades and wargear. Further we are paying for SIA in our base profiles(being 3 points more than other veterans) and so should factor that in when looking at the points cost of things. In addition we have a unique ability to stack keywords and unit abilities within our units and need to take advantage of that.

 

The playing field has diversified, 8th edition is such a huge shift that any attempt to deal with all of it at once will descend into nothingness as we try to tackle too many topics at once.  So, I will begin by compiling my thoughts and resources as I go along and will update it as I find things across the internet. 

 

General 8th edition Strategies and Adjustments

 

Great topic on army construction from another thread in here. 
http://www.bolterand...my-building-8e/

 

Hitting and Wounding in 8th Edition

 

The following charts showcase how we need to re-evaluate weapons going forward. 

 

Chance To Hit & Wound

 

Lets look at how AP increases the chance of causing a wound.

 

AP Saves
 
You can combine almost any of the stats above to get an idea of the chance of any given shoot hurting any given target. 
 
One important thing to remember in this edition is that you ADD or SUBTRACT from a roll.  So when you roll a 5 and get plus one it becomes a 6 and triggers any 6+ abilities.  Meanwhile if you roll a 6 with -1 you don't trigger any effects that occur on a 6+.
 
Multi-Damage Weapons
 
So with the introduction of multi-damage weapons and increased number of multi-wound models it is important to think about how these weapons apply to a variety of targets. To demonstrate how certain weapons are more effective I am going to pretend that each weapon will get 6 rolls on the damage table to make the math easier
 
D3: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 = 12
D6: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 = 21
 
So here we can see against larger targets the D3 is going to be slightly more effective than the D6 when you have twice as many shoots(which most D3 weapons will have for the points)
 
However lets look at firing at something with two wounds.
D3: 66% chance to kill
D6: 87% chance to kill
 
Now Three Wounds
D3: 33% chance to kill
D6: 66% chance to kill
 
So we can see how the niche for D6 weapons works when factoring in their increased price.  If it has 3+ wounds then d6 weapons are the way to go.  However if it has 2 wounds you probably would be fine going with D3 weapons.  Attrition targets are just a crap shoot anyway since they are so close.
 
Hits/Wounds, Re-Rolls, and Modifiers
 
Because we have moved to a strict to hit or too wound system the new system of modifiers will take awhile for people to get used to. One of the biggest changes is that all modifiers are TO THE ROLLS. It used to be that a model might get -1 BS or set to a fixed BS. Now it says "Hit on a 4+, and X ability subtracts one from your roll". 
 
In many situations it probably wont matter, where it does matter is when  abilities trigger off of specific rolls or above a specific roll. If an enemy has an ability that triggers off of 6+ to hit and they get -1, they can never trigger that ability. Conversely if they get +1 to hit the ability triggers on a 5+. If an enemy ability triggers on exactly 6 and they get +1 to hit, it will now only trigger on a 5.  It is very important now to know if an ability triggers on a specific roll or above/below a certain roll. 
 
What is important to remember is that all re-rolls occur BEFORE modifiers. Where this gets really important is the interaction with many of the standard Aura Abilities and things, like overcharged plasma, that trigger on a specific roll. 
 
Example - Plasmagun has -1 to hit against a flier. However he is within an aura that allows him to re-roll 1s. In this case he would ONLY be allowed to re-roll natural 1s as a result of the ability. However if he decided to overcharge any model that rolled a two would now die because after modifications it became a 1 and this is post re-rolls. In addition GW has clarified that a roll can not go below 1, so any 1s following the re-roll would also result in a dead overcharged marine. 
 
Finally if those plasmaguns get a +1, they can never overheat while still getting to take advantage of their re-rolls.
 
All of this is important to keep in mind when thinking about how unit abilities stack and apply. 
 

Wargear and equipping models

 

One of the most significant changes in 8th edition is the clear separation of wargear from "models"(which I will refer to as chassis from now on).  Because any particular weapon is always priced the same it is simply a matter of comparing the "chassis" that will bring that weapon to the table(for ranged weapons). When calculating out the fire power it is important that we factor in all of the advantages and disadvantages of that particular "Chassis" for that particular weapon.

 

For Example: Land Speeder with Multi-Melta versus Land Speeder Storm with Multi-Melta

 

Land Speeder with Multi-Melta = 107

Land Speeder Storm with Multi-Melta =  107

 

Storm - +2 Movement, +1 Wound, -1 Save, +5 Transport Capacity

 

In this situation there is no reason to ever take a land speeder over a storm if you want to bring a multi-melta to the table.  The Land Speeder storm is so much better at the same price point.

 

Now lets factor in that the Land Speeder can get a second Multi Melta shot for an extra 27 Points.

107 + 27 = 134/2 = 67 points per multi-melta shot 

 

If I am trying to bring Multi-Meltas to the table then I save 30 points per shot by taking the land speeder over the storm.  Is the additional +2 movement, +1 Wound, etc worth the additional 30 points per multi melta shot? 

 

Obviously this is over simplified but you get the idea.

 

With how many points are frontloaded on the chassis you will find that expensive models will tend to benefit from maximizing the number of weapons they can bring.  

 

Lets do the Same comparison for a Predator(151) and a Razorback(115) with twin lascannons

A Predator has +1 Wound and loses out on 6 carry capacity.

 

So just taking the turret weapon on a Predator is NEVER worth it as you are effectively paying 35 points for +1 wound -6 transport capacity.

 

Now lets look at a 4 lascannons predator. That is 200 points compared to two razorbacks 230.  Once again we see that the predator is losing out as the razorbacks get effectively 9 wounds and 12 transport capacity for 30 points.  Not a good buy Why would I ever take a predator over a Razorback?  

 

Moving and Firing Heavy Weapons

 

Well that is where the genius of the -1 to hit when moving kicks in.  Razorbacks tend to want to move and advance to fullfill their role, meaning they will be requiring a 4+ to hit a majority of the time while your predator is sitting still most of the game.

 

When looking at the cost of weapons for consider the effective cost when getting a -1 to fire any weapon.  

 

It basically boils down like this approximately(these are gonna be off by a few % but the idea is there)

 

3+ instead of 2+ = +25% to weapon Cost

4+ Instead of 3+ = +33% to weapon Cost

5+ instead of 4+ = +50% to weapon Cost

6+ instead of 5+ = +100% to Weapon Cost

 

So, A razorback that is moving to match the firepower of a predator that is sitting still requires effectively 267 points in razorbacks. A large part of the predators upfront cost factors in that it can sit still and shoot without losing out on any effectiveness.  Basically the worse your enemy makes you shoot, the more costly any penalty to hit becomes. This is super important to consider when firing combi-weapons.

 

Conclusions

 

This edition is one of the first times we can directly calculate how much the chassis costs compared to other units, and how much we are paying to bring something on a particular platform. What I have discussed above translates beyond just vehicles, but applies to any platform. For units that we expect to be moving you want to keep your heavy weapons cheap, for units you expect to sit still/survive or that can ignore the negatives for heavy weapons you want to invest in more expensive wargear upgrades since the opportunity cost is lowest. 

 

*This does not apply the same for melee weapons as that is much more dependent on an individual units stats but we can do similar calculations based on the chassis for melee weapons.

 

Command Points

 

A battle forged army starts with 3.  Most 2k lists I see range between 9 and 12 CMD points

 

We currently have three options for CMD points with more down the line that are tied to specific factions (Not going to talk about the Maelstrom one)

 

1: Re-roll

2: Auto Pass Morale

2. Counter-Offensive

 

When it comes to spending CP there is an entire mini game involved in when and where to use them. It is important to ratio them out, while at the same time knowing when it is important to burn them.  

 

Re-Roll

 

This is probably the most common one you will see people use as there are many games where a re-roll is the difference between victory and defeat.  Knowing when to use these re-rolls is going to be crucial to success.  Knowing when a re-roll will increase the success rate or if you are just throwing it away is important.

 

2+ - 87%

3+ - 66%

4+ - 50%

5+ - 33%

6+ - 17%

 

So you have to decide when the change to chance of success is worth it and likely to pay off.  It will be 100% situational and learning this will be a powerful skill to have. One of the mistakes I see people making is planning around using CMD points.  CMD points are too limited to plan around using them, any strategy that relies on a limited unreliable resource to succeed is going to have problems from the get go.  Plan around never needing to use them and then use them when you need to rather than planning on using them when you might run out. 

 

Auto Pass Morale

 

In most situations marines wont have to worry about this one as our squad sizes tend to be small enough that, combined with a re-roll we wont usually lose models to battleshock and as such it is not usually worth using.

 

When you want to use this is when a unit is nearly guaranteed to be wiped out as a result of a battleshock test, especially for Necrons or IG if your Commisar is not around.

 

Example: 50 man Conscript squad, LD 4.  If I kill 28 Conscripts the minimum they can roll is 29.  29-4 is 25.  Unless you have a commissar in range that squad will automatically disappear without me wasting any more firepower on it. This is a situation where it is potentially worth using the two CMD points.

 

However this is where part of the strategy comes in.  Lets say for example I only kill 20 of the 50 conscripts. Now he will be getting a minimum of 21, losing 17 models taking the squad down to 13.  Is it worth it for him to use the CP now? Probably not. Much of this is situation and army dependent and so baiting out those CMD points is going to be important. What if I kill 28 conscripts from two squads?  Now if they dont use 2 CP they will lose both instead of just one.

 

Forcing these decisions is where battle shock will be important. 

 

Counter Offensive

 

Now this one is huge and will require a lot of tactical practice to get right.  The ability to interrupt a charge sequence not only forces your opponent to be careful in how they activate their charging units, even if you dont actually plan to use your CP to interrupt, it also provides the ability to wipe out certain enemies before they can swing.  It makes charging a CC unit risky unless you activate that unit first. Maybe you can wipe out that character before he gets to swing, removing those buffs from the units surrounding it. Lots of options and once again it will require a situational awareness and experience with playing the game.

 

Army Defense (Bubble Wrap)

 

While the need to "bubble wrap" is not new to 8th edition how and what you need to bubble wrap against has changed. With the removal of scatter, reliable deep strikes, and an exclusion zone the nature of bubble wraps has split into two distinct categories.  Assault Defense and Deep Strike Defense. Both are very different and the types of units that will excel will vary.

 

Assault Defense

 

The purpose of Assault Defense is for the purpose of protecting your more vulnerable units from units that are powerful in melee that can either lock up your units; forcing them to fall back and losing out on shooting, or getting killed in assault.  These are units you want to basically block all avenues of advance from any specific direction.  One of the most common units talked about for this purpose are conscripts.  They are cheap, they can be in large units(making it easy to take advantage of aura buffs), and they mitigate leadership to some extent.  Another example is pox walkers, while more expensive than conscripts their inherent durability and lack of needing auras for leadership mitigation really help justify their cost.  Many of these units also serve the dual purpose of being large in number and thus good at taking objectives.  They also lose next to nothing for falling back since their firepower is not really relevant compared to what they are protecting.

 

A few important things to be aware of when taking a unit for Assault Defense - Be careful of making a gap too large where the enemy can slide through to charge one of the units you are protecting.  This is where positioning is important.  With the removal of blast weapons their is not as much of a reason to maximize the distance between your models.  However, you dont want to be too close together as it might be possible to remove yourself from combat as a result of casualties negating the need to fall back.  Secondly, be wary of the 3 inch post combat pile in.  Effectively you need to make sure you are 5-6 inches back from your screen to make sure they cant get to you with a pile in.  Assuming that you were able to prevent them from sliding in between your bases to get to you. 

 

Another potential type of Assault defense unit is a durable CC unit that can take a hit and then strike back.  This is a unit that your opponent will have to think twice about charging, if you use your CMD points to interrupt his charge order and strike back with this unit before he can go it will definitely blunt his charge.  

 

 

Deep Strike Defense

 

Whereas in previous editions the units that were good at Assault defense also served the dual purpose of deep strike defense in this edition they still can but it is not an efficient method of doing so. Many of the current power builds rely on being able to deep strike in close with power units and hit hard without a chance to return the favor.  Scion drop lists are an excellent example. With many deep strike armies keeping their unit count down to go first it can be difficult to create the exclusion area necessary to protect your army from first turn deep strikes without having to position yourself poorly within your deployment zone which in and of itself is a victory. This is where Deep Strike Defense units come in. 

 

To protect from deep strike you need to maximize area denial using the inherent 9 inch push back. For deep strike defense the optimal unit is something cheap, disposable, and fast preferably with some sort of scout move. The second thing to factor in is that a larger base drastically increases the area that can be denied with a single model.

 

Lets use 25mm base as the comparison size. 32mm base and a 60mm base

 

25mm base - 283 square inches

32mm base - 291 square Inches - 3% increase

60mm base - 326 square inches - 15% increase in area covered

 

So we can see that a single model on a 60mm base will deny 15% more area than a 25mm single model.  With the limitation that a unit has to be within 2 inches each additional base added will provide a minimal additional amount of coverage

 

So how do we bring this all together?  Well The unit you are protecting will have its own 9 inch bubble. To protect your army a deepstrike defense unit can be over 10 inches away and still provide all of the defense necessary. This effectively places the enemy over 26-29 inches away from their ideal targets. To perform this role they need to get into position either before the turn begins or within the first turn.  Even if they die after this first turn they have bought enough time for your slower assault defense units to get into position and provide the same role with more wounds.  In addition they can re position more effectively to cover your army as it moves.  Simply by being further from the center of your army the distance they have to travel will be much higher to provide the same protections.  They might need to protect the front of your army, but as you advance they now need to provide deep strike coverage to the back. 

 

So any unit that has a scout move or alternate deployment types is ideal for this role, however multiple additional units can provide the role over the course of the game. 

 

Units that are good for this are scout sentinels(45 pts), scouts(55), attack bikes (57), etc. 


Edited by leth, 05 July 2017 - 03:54 PM.

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Special Issue Ammunition

 

Special issue ammunition is back to where it belongs as a deathwatch exclusive.  They have done a much better job in this edition balancing out the the different types of ammo. However we are effectively paying 3 points per model as a default to get access to it over other veterans and should be considered when looking at upgrades. 

 

Dragonfire - Add one to hit when targetting units in cover

Hellfire - Wound on 2+ except against vehicles

Kraken Bolt - +3 to range(+1.5 for rapid fire) and increase AP by 1

Vengeance Round - -3 range(-1.5 for rapid fire) increase AP by 2

 

For this analysis I am going to focus on how each one has a chance to wound against a variety of targets.  Below I have the chance of any given ammunition causing a successful wound against a variety of targets toughness and armor saves.  For the dragonfire rounds in cover I factored the higher chance to hit into their stats(so where as everyone else counts as 1 hit, dragonfire in cover counts as 1.25 hits). To account for the range difference in Kraken and Vengeance rounds just double the results for the profile that can rapidfire. 

 
sml_gallery_66457_13233_6076.png

 

Special issue ammunition has significant problems against vehicles( as it should). In a pinch vengeance rounds are a pretty solid backup against vehicles that are T5-7. 

 

Army Specific Units

Right now I am assuming that we are losing the 1-5 for units not inside kill teams. Hopefully we will have a day 1 FAQ/Points change for the storm shield but we shall see. 

Vanguard

-Vanguard in Veterans Squads
Vanguard in veteran squads are pretty good as they can now be transported in things like a land raider while bikes can not. However as weird as it seems hey seem better in a snooty unit than a CC unit since their ability allows fallback and shoot while bikes allow fallback and charge. With that in mind I think using them in your mid range squads would be helpful. They help give some CC punch to your unit if you get charged, reducing the risk from battleshock for a very reasonable price point. However when it comes to assault units, especially those in a Corvus I would just stick with a bike.

Terminators

While we pay more for our terminators we get some sweet options as well as the ability to mix and match equipment based on how we want to kit them out instead of being limited in form. 

One really nice thing is that we can get 3 heavy weapons per squad.  So a Power Sword Assault cannon terminator is 57 points.  This is a wicked solid deal. So for 239 points we can get a 3 assault cannon 5 man terminator squad.  That is a decent amount of fire power.  that can teleport in and drop a crap ton of shots.  Coordinate it with a watch master and that is some serious hurt coming out. Sadly I cant really advocate for the cyclone missile launchers.  They are too expensive for something that is strictly worse than two missile launchers. 



-Terminators in Veterans Squads
Terminators are what will keep our squads alive. Not only do they prevent losses of wounds to battle shock, they also drastically increase the survivability of our squads. For 38 points you get twice the survivability against no ap weapons as well as a two wound model. In effect against small arms fire a terminator is about 4 times as survivable as a veteran for twice the points. Against anything with AP -3 or -4 wound 1 it is more survivable given its 5+ invul save. When used for this purpose I would keep them intentionally cheap. They are still decent in combat in this configuration and add to the unit so I would not write them off. They can also bring the assault cannons as mentioned above.

In addition to all of this terminators have a teleport move(that is not falling back so we can assault normally). It also allows for the deathwatch to advance hard and fast with everything knowing that we can just teleport back if we need to defend.  It also allows for a refused flank strategy with your ranged units.  Place your ranged killteams on one side with your teleport homers on the other.  It will allow you to either re-deploy turn one or get out of combat/escape from transports that are approaching your position. 

Bikers

 

Honestly for their points and what they bring to the table, bikers are not bad. They are 36 points you are getting two highly mobile veterans, that has the same amount of fire power, brings a teleport homer as well as a unit special ability to the table while also losing half as much effectiveness per wound against everything that is not multiple damage. 

 

-Bikers in Veterans Squads
Bikers are your go to in corvus based CC kill teams. Being able to fallback and charge is a huge tactical advantage when it comes to getting to strike first. In addition when getting out of a vehicle they have a very solid move value that can help get closer to an enemy unit to charge. I personally would keep them cheap with just a power sword and leave it at that. I think I would only take hem in Corvus mounted CC dedicated units since that is where they shine.

Corvus Black Star
If any unit in our army has gotten the biggest boost in this edition it is the Corvus black star. When it comes to being a firepower chassis it can hold its own, add on the transport capacity and it is solid competitor with comparable fliers like the storm raven.  Holding 12 models means that with your basic 5 man veteran team you have 7 slots to work with. With the loss of drop pods for our terminator squads(and drop pods overall points increase), Corvus is the best option IMO for a transport. You are always going to want the hurricane bolter whenever you can take it.  For 4 points it is a steal.  For the other two it is a mixed bag.  On one hand we want our transports getting close so assault cannon and blackstar seems like the way to go for 27 points cheaper.  However our armies are lacking in long range fire power and 4 str 8/9 -3 multiple damage shots is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you enter hover with a watchmaster nearby. Really it depends on your army composition.  For my current list I have my DW squad sitting back for a turn or two while the rest of my army drops a CRAP ton of shots/long range firepower on my opponent to clear the chaff. 

 

After playing a few games and seeing how many enemy units have fly...the infernum launcher is CRAZY good for its points.  While flying we basically get -2 to be hit by enemy fliers.  -3 if they move and try to fire heavy weapons....A vendetta is hitting us on 6's!  Also when you factor in everything from crisis suits to daemon princes have the fly keyword...its pretty good.


Watch Master
Wow have these guys gotten a buff, re-roll ALL misses(both in shooting and close combat) for deathwatch models within 6 inches (including all vehicles) is a huge benefit for his points. For me he is a must take, if not two, for any deathwatch list. A corvus re-rolling all of its misses? yes please!! All our combi-weapons firing at -1, who cares? He does not benefit units armed with flamers as much since they auto hit so that is something to consider in list building. Having a 2+ armor while not being in terminator armor is also a huge boon as he only takes up 1 slot in a unit transport. 

 

Honestly for the points(He is the cheapest Chapter Master level character I can find), I cant see a situation where I would take any of our other HQs. 

 

Veterans
Moving this unit to the end because it has the most variety. Our bog standard guys, coming in at a moderate price point of 3 points more than a regular veteran we get SIA as well as a large variety of individual model upgrades.

Blackshield
Heroic Intervention from the blackshield is HUGE. Not only does it allow our units to support each other when they get charged, but also they get to fight without worrying about getting attacked back!! Combined with a vanguard veteran you can effectively Support assault, fight for free, and then fall back without loss of effectiveness, or combined with a bike you can fall back and then charge right back in making sure you get to strike first.

 

 

Deathwatch Specific Wargear

Frag Cannons
Ahhh frag cannons, our old bread and butter. Frag cannons still remain very powerful and really solidify our role as the mid to close range specialists. However they are not cheap and the cost of adding more than a few is very expensive.  

 

With the introduction of hit modifiers and the autohit nature of our frag cannons we really have come into our own as specialists.  With the ability to advance and fire we drastically increase how dangerous we can be with both versions of this weapon.

 

For example: Firing at a T7 3+ save flier

Frag Cannon(Frag) - 24 points per 1 damage

Frag Cannon(Shell) - 74 Points per 1 damage

Frag Cannon(Shell Short) - 44 Points per 1 Damage

Lascannon - 39 Points per damage

Autocannon(HWT) 57 points per 1 damage

 

While the Lascannon has the advantage against a target like this, lets look at it against something that is T5 2 wounds 3+ save

 

Frag Cannon(Frag) - 32 points per 2 damage

Frag Cannon(Shell) - 41 Points per 2 damage

Frag Cannon(Shell Short) - 33 Points per 2 Damage

Lascannon - 51 Points per 2 damage

Autocannon(HWT) 28.5 points per 2 damage

 

We can see how it is crucial that we identify what range of targets our frag cannon will excel against. While I believe that Lascannons definatly have a roll in our armies, especially for their range against multi wound high toughness targets getting our frag cannons close is pretty significant.


Xenophase Swords.
Ahh the worthless upgrade from before has received a huge boost in this edition as well. With the change to AP modifiers having that reroll invul saves on a sword is pretty significant. With. -3 modifier many targets will be on invernerable saves. We now can reduce their efficiency significantly. For only a few points more than a regular power sword it is worthwhile to take on our veteran captains.

 

Infernus Heavy Bolter

So close GW, so close.  If this had been about 20 points and the heavy bolter remained assault it would have been worthwhile.  Sadly for the points it is still strictly inferior to the Frag Cannon.  It does have its uses, and that is looking pretty.

 

Combi-Weapons

These are not Deathwatch exclusive but they play an important role in our army, and our ability to be effective.

 

When looking at the cost of firing both weapons from a combi weapon consider what the ACTUAL cost is of firing the second weapon.

 

3+ instead of 2+ = +25% to weapon Cost

4+ Instead of 3+ = +33% to weapon Cost

5+ instead of 4+ = +50% to weapon Cost

6+ instead of 5+ = +100% to Weapon Cost

 

Basically the worse your enemy makes you shoot, the more costly any penalty to hit becomes.  There might be situations where it is honestly not worth firing the bolter as the reduced chance to hit with your main weapon cancels out any benefit.

Special issue ammunition is back to where it belongs as a deathwatch exclusive.  They have done a much better job in this edition balancing out the the different types of ammo. However we are effectively paying 3 points per model as a default to get access to it over other veterans and should be considered when looking at upgrades. 

 

 
Power Weapons
Below is the Chart for how the different power weapons perform against different targets. So depending on how you plan to specialize your deathwatch to deal with specific targets this might be helpful.  Just multiply the chance to wound by the percentages presented here to see how they do against different targets after factoring in saves. 
 
Power Weapons
 

Edited by leth, 07 July 2017 - 10:38 PM.

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Kill Team Composition

 

So how we build our Killteams is highly dependent on the role we want them to fill as well as their method of transportation. 

 

Rhinos, Razorbacks, Drop Pods limit the squad to infantry non terminator models.

Land Raiders allow us to take Jump and Terminator in the squads

Corvus allows any kill team


Edited by leth, 13 June 2017 - 05:57 PM.


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Transports

 

With the release of the FAQ from GW, specifically in how smoke launchers work, Rhinos and Razorbacks have a much more viable role within our army.  Given that we can spend a turn advancing and then popping smoke for that -1 to hit.  It will really improve the survive-ability of our transports compensating for our shorter ranges. 

 

Personally It is a toss up between rhinos and razorbacks.  IF we get access to the FW razorbacks(basically getting all the options back) then I can see a role for razorbacks in our lists. Especially since a kill team with only veterans wont be too large anyway.  However the key will be having two kill teams in a single rhino to get both of them up field for the same cost.  This is where I can see the rhino starting to shine.  Having 8 frag cannons per rhino is a LOT of potential Fire power. 

 

One of the best transports for us is definitely the Corvus.  It can take mixed kill teams and the size of 12 means we can get a solid kit out + a character in each Corvus.  

 

While not ideal because of their cost, with the change to smoke launchers I could actually see running a land raider variant to get specific kill teams up and close. 

 

Forge World Units

 

Forgeworld Units really open up the playing field. The dreadnaught and dreadnaight drop pod options really help deal with a large variety of targets where we are weak by bringing some serious fire power and durability for their points.  The Leviathan with grav flux bombards absolutely helps us deal with both vehicles and to a lesser extent large units which goes back to the specialization aspect. By taking FW units we can make our kill teams more specialized to cover our other weaknesses. 

 

 

Imperial Allies

Imperial Guard
Imperial guard is the best ally IMO as it plugs the biggest holes in our list which is quantity of shots and quantity of bodies. Deathwatch are great at eliminating specific targets, however they lack the pure firepower to destroy he hordes that are making a combat this edition.

Personally every imperial army I make is going to have a squad of 50 conscripts, a commissar, and a officer for orders. Alternatively I will be running squads of Kriegers.  The ignoring shooting casualties for morale and hitting on 3+ is pretty significant.  They also have solid orders and a more durable Lord commander with the momento mori. They provide all the bodies I need, which is huge for controlling objectives in this edition, as well as board presence. Up to 200 shots at 12 inches isn't bad either haha. When it comes to taking care of large blocks of infantry IG has access to the cheapest volume fire power in the imperium because they are pay the least for their "chassis" as I like to call it.

We also can benefit from the Scion plasma drop, a cheap 60 to 70 point sacrificial unit to put the hurt on some major unit dropping it down to a weaker category could be a significant bonus to our survivability,


Edited by leth, 17 July 2017 - 12:46 PM.


#5
leth

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Specific Enemy strategies

Against Tau we need to be very aware of he location of their drones. It is very easy for them to sacrifice single wound drones to eat our strong weapons rather than have the battle suits take the hits. Especially since the wounds are allocated before actual wound and damage rolls. However they are not infantry and so will have a very hard time getting cover. It is imperative that you take out the drones before wasting your good shots on the suits, or any other model for that matter. I found that out the fun way when my vindicate tried to snipe some characters.

Battle suits are not infantry and thus have a very hard time benefiting from most types of cover. In addition they have the fly special rule so our Corvus black star launchers will hit them quite easily. 


Edited by leth, 13 June 2017 - 06:08 PM.


#6
Vel'Cona

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Someone wants a sticky, eh?  :P  But this is an important topic, OFC, so hopefully we'll have some info to put in here soon.  Still a week or so to go, though . . .


Seems like these models will never end!

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#7
leth

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Haha, nah.  I just wanted to consolidate it all in one place in a more pure form following discussion instead of it being lost over the course of like 20-30.

 

Guilliman can be efficient and so can I haha. I am going to update things as I think of them


Edited by leth, 08 June 2017 - 02:38 PM.

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#8
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor

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I guess it's time for my Terminator Captain to get the promotion he deserves since I have yet to get my own true Watch Master. It'll just be weird seeing him inside a Rhino though. :P



#9
Moostick

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Vanguard

 

-Vanguard in Veterans Squads

 

Fly in our units is a double edged sword.  There are many upgrades and abilities that are better against units that fly while there are none that are worse.  Adding a vanguard into your Veteran squad you are taking the risk for the entire unit in return for the ability to fall back.  However you also can assault fliers(hahahaha) but in general I get the feeling that vanguard veterans on any squad designed for CC will be a liability.  I would recommend just taking a Bike instead as that makes it so you can charge back in(which is where this unit wants to be anyway).   

 

Note that adding Vanguard to a Kill Team does not confer <Fly>, but only <Jump Pack>, to the unit, so they don't bring the advantage or disadvantage of the keyword.



#10
Kargrym

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Vanguard

 

-Vanguard in Veterans Squads

 

Fly in our units is a double edged sword.  There are many upgrades and abilities that are better against units that fly while there are none that are worse.  Adding a vanguard into your Veteran squad you are taking the risk for the entire unit in return for the ability to fall back.  However you also can assault fliers(hahahaha) but in general I get the feeling that vanguard veterans on any squad designed for CC will be a liability.  I would recommend just taking a Bike instead as that makes it so you can charge back in(which is where this unit wants to be anyway).   

 

Note that adding Vanguard to a Kill Team does not confer <Fly>, but only <Jump Pack>, to the unit, so they don't bring the advantage or disadvantage of the keyword.

 

but it does bulk up that model size in a corvus something fierce. so dumb.



#11
leth

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Vanguard
 
-Vanguard in Veterans Squads
 
Fly in our units is a double edged sword.  There are many upgrades and abilities that are better against units that fly while there are none that are worse.  Adding a vanguard into your Veteran squad you are taking the risk for the entire unit in return for the ability to fall back.  However you also can assault fliers(hahahaha) but in general I get the feeling that vanguard veterans on any squad designed for CC will be a liability.  I would recommend just taking a Bike instead as that makes it so you can charge back in(which is where this unit wants to be anyway).

 
Note that adding Vanguard to a Kill Team does not confer <Fly>, but only <Jump Pack>, to the unit, so they don't bring the advantage or disadvantage of the keyword.

Thanks for the correction catch!! Updating it soon

#12
Vel'Cona

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but it does bulk up that model size in a corvus something fierce. so dumb.

 

Doesn't the Corvus have 12 capacity?  How big of a KT are you trying to run, brother?  :P


Seems like these models will never end!

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#13
Kargrym

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but it does bulk up that model size in a corvus something fierce. so dumb.

 

Doesn't the Corvus have 12 capacity?  How big of a KT are you trying to run, brother?  tongue.png

 

 

how many? 2 KT would be nice.... but since the entire team have <Jumpack> each model takes up 2 space, not just the vanguard.



#14
leth

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Well if you have a minimum of 5, a terminator is two, a bike is three that is 10'down right there. So you either take one more veteran and a character, or you take a vanguard. Remember the unit has the keyword, not individual models. Within a unitnyou can have models that have different keywords.

Edited by leth, 09 June 2017 - 06:06 PM.

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#15
Kargrym

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While I think you are right, and I initially thought that as well, that might need a FAQ.

#16
Moostick

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Actually had a discussion with someone regarding that. The words specifically say that the keywords are conferred to the unit and not the model, and nothing says the keywords are applied to an individual model. The keyword simply makes the unit susceptible to certain abilities and rules. You'll notice they specifically use the words <unit> and <model> to differentiate what they're talking about. Like when a Captain takes a Jump Pack, the <model> gains <Jump Pack> and <Fly>.

 

Someone who argued against my reasoning eventually agreed that a unit can indeed have models with different keywords. An example he told me that convinced him were Tau units with drones.


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#17
leth

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Updated with Stats on special issue ammunition against a variety of targets!!

 

 

I was pleasantly surprised to see that each round does have its niche considering the wide range of targets that are available.  Dragonfire's bonus to hit actually puts it over some other ammunitions in specific situations, hellfire seems to still be a pretty solid round, however with the change in the wounding system, the other rounds have a role against a variety of targets, including light vehicles. 



#18
Moostick

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You know what would be the most lame, but best, tactic ever? Mass Razorbacks.

 

Just take 2 Vanguard Detachments. Assume the Matched Play section is not a typo and 1 model units are allowed.

 

2 Watch Master - 260 pts

 

12 x single model Vanguards - 252 pts

 

14 Razorbacks with AC and SB - 1,428 pts

 

Use the remaining 60 pts for whatever, maybe like 10 Hunter Killer Missiles or loadout the Vanguards with plasma pistols. Advance the Razorbacks up to the middle of the field in a convoy with WMs hidden between them for rerolls.

 

164 Wounds total. Every turn: 168 S6, AP1 shots, 24/48 S4, AP0 shots, reroll all failed To Hit rolls. Vanguards pop up anywhere to take pop shots at whatever. Worst. Player. Ever.



#19
leth

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You know what would be the most lame, but best, tactic ever? Mass Razorbacks.

 

Just take 2 Vanguard Detachments. Assume the Matched Play section is not a typo and 1 model units are allowed.

 

2 Watch Master - 260 pts

 

12 x single model Vanguards - 252 pts

 

14 Razorbacks with AC and SB - 1,428 pts

 

Use the remaining 60 pts for whatever, maybe like 10 Hunter Killer Missiles or loadout the Vanguards with plasma pistols. Advance the Razorbacks up to the middle of the field in a convoy with WMs hidden between them for rerolls.

 

164 Wounds total. Every turn: 168 S6, AP1 shots, 24/48 S4, AP0 shots, reroll all failed To Hit rolls. Vanguards pop up anywhere to take pop shots at whatever. Worst. Player. Ever.

 

Honestly, with the artificial limitations we have on access to equipment(best equipped my censored.gif) Razorbacks with assault cannons are something we should consider taking.  Short range means that they are going to be moving so it makes sense to save the assault cannons for them.

 

However you are going to want some longer range weapons because a lot of armies will out range you and while I know you were joking it does highlight the need for versatility within an army.  Assault Cannons are awesome, but they are terrible at taking down larger, more durable vehicles.  Multiple damage is what you need against those types of targets. 


Edited by Vel'Cona, 14 June 2017 - 02:04 PM.
Naughty words


#20
SnakeChisler

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Actually had a discussion with someone regarding that. The words specifically say that the keywords are conferred to the unit and not the model, and nothing says the keywords are applied to an individual model. The keyword simply makes the unit susceptible to certain abilities and rules. You'll notice they specifically use the words <unit> and <model> to differentiate what they're talking about. Like when a Captain takes a Jump Pack, the <model> gains <Jump Pack> and <Fly>.

 

Someone who argued against my reasoning eventually agreed that a unit can indeed have models with different keywords. An example he told me that convinced him were Tau units with drones.

Tau Drones form a separate unit once deployed next to its original owner probably for the reasons your stating



#21
Vel'Cona

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That is incredibly dirty, Moostick.  :P  Now to figure out what I did with those other 8 Razorbacks . . .

 

But yes, as leth said I think you'd want to blend a few Lascannons in there to deal with big scary stuff.  I'd also be concerned about how this army would do kill point mission wise, with that many solo Vanguard bombing around.


Seems like these models will never end!

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#22
shandwen

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Looking at our support choices (hs, fa, el) I really think we get a lot for the bikers, and the van vets are a trap. The termies look to be good in point games rather than power level games (as the power level is really high on them).
I'm looking at taking two three bike sections with two power weapons each to support my 2-3 kill teams and pair of ven dreads.

Now in Technicolor!


#23
Prot

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Well the Van vets may look like a trap but when you're paying a ton of points for a super shooty unit, you better be able to get them out of close combat without repercussions....

 

When I played Tau I could not keep virtually any units in CC. They just 'fly' away and you're left in the open to mass firepower. The more it happened to me the more I realized the value of the Vanguard Vet. I will say perhaps the 'trap' would be in taking masses of VV which I personally will not do.

 

Razorbacks are strong. There's no doubt... I'm seeing a lot of lists pop up for loyalists that basically are milking the aura and razorback.


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#24
Vel'Cona

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Razorbacks are strong. There's no doubt... I'm seeing a lot of lists pop up for loyalists that basically are milking the aura and razorback.

 

This is one interesting point: even without abusing solo units (possible rules violations aside), MSU RB with Veterans onboard will give the DW a ton of shooting options.  It's almost like a match made by the Emperor, because the RBs are cheap and plentiful with excellent firepower while the DW are expensive but extremely flexible in terms of shooting potential, making riding in RBs a no-brainer for them.  I'll have to smash together a few lists today and see how the numbers add up!  :D


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Seems like these models will never end!

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#25
Moostick

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Any opinions on Grav Pistols VS Plasma pistols?

 

Also, people are lauding Watchmasters, but you can have a Jump Pack Captain with Combi-weapon + Thunder Hammer as a solo hunting force to be reckoned with for the same point cost. I see people often opting for WM or a rather bare Captain. Why no love for them?






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