Vanguard Veteran Weapon Loadouts 8th Edition

[Noxnoctis22]

I've played a few games with running 3 VV squads with various weapon loadouts and I've been unimpressed with them. I feel this is going to fall on the fact that I'm still stuck in my 7E mindset.

 

I've been trying to DS 2-3 of them with Shrike and maybe 1 with the Chaplain aggressively at my opponent but more often than not I've missed the charge, even with Shrike providing the re-rolls. When I miss that big charge after a DS I'm hung out to dry there and there goes the game in most cases.

 

So what I'm thinking is that DS then charging, even with a re-roll is too risky. In the future I think DSing into cover or out of LOS then positioning yourself the next turn for a much shorter charge is key. If you're able to come down and stay outside of 12" for your opponent's turn but then close the gap on your movement phase with the new CT will be key here.

 

I know this is about VV weapon loadouts but no matter what weapons they have the above seems to be an issue....at least for me.

[Extropian]

Even with a re-roll there's only about a 48% chance of making the charge, unless my maths is off (tiring day so possible).

With the clarification to command point re-rolls (you must re-roll ALL the dice...you can't just re-roll 1 if you roll a 1 and a 6 for example) that all-or-nothing re roll is the best you'll get too.

not something i would ever build a list around tbh.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Not too confuse things further and/or be a complete tool, but in the example above you could actually reroll one dice with a CP, as the stratagem specifically states "a single dice".

 

Your point still stands though, and DS charge doesn't seem like a tactic to hang your hat on. With the caveat that I don't play in any way competitively, I quite like double plasma gunslingers for a DS drop. Negates the difficulty of charges, and still does a boat load of damage. Admittedly, maybe not as fluffy or to everyone's taste.

 

For classic claws'n'Shrike, maybe coming out of a Raven or SftS is a better bet, to get use out of all those 'packs.

[Noxnoctis22]

The Chapter Tactic and SFTS is much more important for RG now. Dropping in and just charging look amazing when 8th first came out but with some time it's not as great as it might have first seemed.

[Bluthusten]

What says the math about double Laserpistol? Seems pretty cool and some extra "optic" damage haha

[Extropian]

Not too confuse things further and/or be a complete tool, but in the example above you could actually reroll one dice with a CP, as the stratagem specifically states "a single dice".

 

For classic claws'n'Shrike, maybe coming out of a Raven or SftS is a better bet, to get use out of all those 'packs.

Is that still true wi re-rolls though? From the new FAQ:

 

"Page 178 – Re-rolls

Change this paragraph to read:

‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modi ers (if any) are applied.’"

 

But yeah, either way SFTS is massively more reliable as a delivery mechanism.

[Alcyon]

I watched this Tabletop Tactics batrep recently where a Blood Angel player failed every single one of his first turn charges from about four/five different units. I agree I think it's much too unlikely to build a list around — but that also means SFTS makes us one of (if not the only) army currently able to near-guarantee a first turn charge. That's a big deal and I'm definitely interested in how we can set up army lists to maximize that capability, even with only 1-2 units.

[Andrés Pacheco]

 

Not too confuse things further and/or be a complete tool, but in the example above you could actually reroll one dice with a CP, as the stratagem specifically states "a single dice".

For classic claws'n'Shrike, maybe coming out of a Raven or SftS is a better bet, to get use out of all those 'packs.

Is that still true wi re-rolls though? From the new FAQ:

"Page 178 – Re-rolls

Change this paragraph to read:

‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modi ers (if any) are applied.’"

But yeah, either way SFTS is massively more reliable as a delivery mechanism.

Yeah, i read the faq, but I'm interpreting the "unless otherwise stated" as being in play here. The reroll stratagem does specifically state how many dice you roll, "any single dice", so in my view would overrule the general point made in the faq.

[Extropian]

Yeah, interesting point. You might well be right, which would be nice.

[KGatch113]

Though, what is annoying is that many of the major tournament organizers are doing to a system where deploying first does not guarantee first turn, but only a bonus on a roll to go first.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Not too confuse things further and/or be a complete tool, but in the example above you could actually reroll one dice with a CP, as the stratagem specifically states "a single dice".

 

For classic claws'n'Shrike, maybe coming out of a Raven or SftS is a better bet, to get use out of all those 'packs.

Is that still true wi re-rolls though? From the new FAQ:

 

"Page 178 – Re-rolls

Change this paragraph to read:

‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modi ers (if any) are applied.’"

 

But yeah, either way SFTS is massively more reliable as a delivery mechanism.

 

Im suddenly terrified of Wyverns.  If they get a bad roll on the number of hits they spend 1 CP to reroll 4d6. :(:(:(

[Withershadow]

Going fluffy.

 

5x twin claws to go with Shrike.

 

He needs his command squad.

It's not only fluffy, but also effective, and lets you use the badass FW models.

[Extropian]

Though, what is annoying is that many of the major tournament organizers are doing to a system where deploying first does not guarantee first turn, but only a bonus on a roll to go first.

Tbh. Having played a few games both ways, I support the change. It tones down some of the armies designed to abuse a turn 1 alpha strike with an almost guaranteed first turn (4 Knights, 5 ravens etc).

 

Having less drops shouldn't give such a massive advantage, but the bonus on the roll means you still get something.

 

Personal taste though.

[Alcyon]

If they continue with this style of going first rule, it alters the use of SftS for RG a lot. Turn 1 assault troops and alpha strike units become much, much worse since the chances of them being hung out to dry is far higher.

 

Now that I think about it, this makes more sense with how GW likely intended SftS to work; encouraging you to put a number of units further up the board than they would normally be able to, walking (much like Lias Issodon's ability) rather than enabling turn 1 guaranteed charges.

[KGatch113]

On the flip side, horde armies with lots of troops have an advantage over smaller elite armies in grabbing and holding objectives, which gives them a greater chance to win. 1st turn is supposed to be an equalizer.

[Claws and Effect]

On the Vanguard weapons loadout, I have a mix for thematic reasons.

 

My Vanguard Veterans got where they are by being exceptional Assault Sergeants. With that in mind it seems fitting that they would continue using whatever weapon they are most comfortable with.

 

My squad is Sgt with Relic blade and shield, axe and shield, fist and shield, 2 twin claws. Not the most optimized loadout, but the squad has tons of personality.

[Alcyon]

That's definitely cool and thematic. You do you, man :)

 

Been thinking about this more lately and I think my Vanguards are going to run all TH+SS. I did the math and they are better than Lascannons at killing most targets, and if you're running Shrike it's a shame not to use them. For LCs I'm actually planning to run Cataphractii Terminators with SftS so they get an invuln, I think that's just so important in this edition.

[sultansean]

Resurrecting this post to see how people's feelings have changed with Chapter Approved adjusting the points cost of weapons. 

 

I'm thinking a mix of guys with power swords and axes would be good. Although the dual lighting claw also looks effective. 

[Claws and Effect]

Claws are the best option for anti-infantry by a wide margin.

 

Hammers or fists for tougher things.

 

I'm personally going to be running 2 5-man squads with claws as soon as I finish my Dark Fury squad.

[scflasheart]

I run them with 10 plasma pistols 8 power swords and 2 SS. SFTS with shrike and rip through the flank. I also like the dual LC on them too.

[Jacques Corbin]

Agreed, if they are going with Shrike, or a captain, Plasma Pistols all the way, but otherwise Claws are the way to go. Now by all the way, I mean Plasma Pistols and either a Power Sword or a Power Axe, save the power mauls for the Assault Sergeants. If you bring a Jump lieutenant, keep his officer bolter, and swap his Chainsword for the Teeth of Terra.

 

Given the buff bubbles in 8th now, we should consider them as well. Shrike of a Chaplain with Vanguard sporting paired Claws. For Plasma Pistols, definitely bring Shrike or a generic Captain. The Lieutenant is the guy around power weapons or Chainswords, it's only 1s, but still a great help. Super charged Plasma with a Lieutenant around is just vulgar.

 

Another point in favor of Plasma Pistols, they can be shot into a melee as of 8th, as well as being shot with while in close combat.

[SyNidus]

Personally i've been using 8 man teams with 6 Thunder Hammers/Stormshields, and 2 Dual Lightning Claws to pretty good effect.

I'm not sold on Plasma Pistols and Power Swords...What role do you use them for? They hardly seem threatening to me.

[Claws and Effect]

An overcharged plasma pistol is S8 and 2 damage.

 

On just about anything else I wouldn't bother. But on a unit that wants to be within 12" to charge anyway I can see the appeal.

 

A 5 man squad with plasma pistols and hammers can deal 43 damage per turn if everything hits and wounds. That's the loadout to run against other Marines.

[Jacques Corbin]

An overcharged plasma pistol is S8 and 2 damage.

 

On just about anything else I wouldn't bother. But on a unit that wants to be within 12" to charge anyway I can see the appeal.

 

A 5 man squad with plasma pistols and hammers can deal 43 damage per turn if everything hits and wounds. That's the loadout to run against other Marines.

Wow, and if Shrike or a generic Captain are around, then overcharge with impunity.

 

Overcharged Plasma is the way to go vs Terminators and support characters. En masse, like in a Vanguard Squad, only characters with multiple wounds, and a 3++, like Lysander, would not fold like so much laundry.

[Firepower]

It just feels rather odd giving C:SM's main stabby unit guns, when they have...y'know...stabby stuff. Like, all the stabby stuff. :teehee:

 

Still, pistols mitigate the loss of effectiveness when they don't make their charge...but...it ain't stabby...