Really disappointed with 8th edition changes

[imperialguard]

Hey guys, it's my first post on the forum, although I've been a fan of this site for a while now. I'm someone who's only gotten into Warhammer recently, but I really fell in love with the Imperial Guard.

 

Speaking honestly, 7th edition was a little complicated for me to jump into, especially with the wildly different power levels for codexes and the complicated rules for flyers, monstrous creatures, ect. I've tried my best to keep up, and things seemed like they would get better with 8th edition. It sounded like GW was committed to simplifying the rules and leveling the playing field. I was really excited.

 

...until I saw the new rules for Imperial Guard.

 

I'm sure others have different opinions, but to me it feels like GW has taken away almost everything that made this army unique. It is really disheartening to see some of the changes they have made. Platoons, combined squads, veteran customization- they got rid of everything that drew me to the Guard in the first place, and I don't particularly like anything they have given us to replace it with.

 

I built my army around platoons, supported by leman russes and veteran squads in Chimeras with carapace armor. I even converted my vets to give them a unique "armored up" feel. None of that, as I understand it, is viable now. There are no more platoons, which were the heart of the guard to me. No more way to combine squads, which gave our army great individuality. Veterans have lost all of their unique customization, and with the changes to Chimeras I honestly don't see any reason to field them. Essentially the way I played doesn't exist anymore.

 

Losing company and platoon command squads is another big blow. I guess the new game system wasn't designed to handle it, but having a single company commander running behind his men takes out a lot of the originality out of this army. I know people are still debating the merits of leman russ tanks, but from what I've heard they aren't going to be very competitive either. What is really frustrating is that it seems like there are now fewer units which are viable for us- which is the opposite of what GW promised. 

 

Perhaps the most frustrating part about this to me is that there doesn't really seem to be anyway to voice these concerns to GW. They made this massive change without really consulting Imperial Guard players. I know people are holding out hope that maybe a year from now we get a codex with some more personality and power, but it's hard for me to be optimistic now. They've done so much right so far with 8th edition in my estimation, but this feels like a serious mistake, and it feels really disrespectful to guard players.

 

What are you guys thoughts on all this? Am I overreacting? I hope there is a silver lining that I haven't seen yet. Thanks for reading.

Edited June 8, 2017 by imperialguard

[Olis]

Welcome to the forums, brother.

 

I am not entirely sure I can assuage what you feel, brother. To me, there are certain things that have become apparent which seem quite strong (basilisks + master of ordnance for example), but that doesn't really help if you've tailored your army to make the most out of a previous editions rules. 

 

As of yet, the rules we see are simple stand-ins, as the indexes are purely there to make sure everyone can get going straight away with rules for most if not all units available on launch. I think, considering you are saying things like it was "disrespectful" and that Guard players were not "consulted", that you are possibly taking these changes personally. They did not need to consult anyone for these new rules, although they did extensively play test them with certain select people outside of the company, so maybe that qualifies as consultation. 

 

I believe that the Codex will go some way to rectifying the loss of platoons, if it isn't already covered. What else can be said? There's only oh so much reliance on "wait and see" that we can do when some are clearly unhappy with what they see so far.

[MysticTemplar]

Hey guys, it's my first post on the forum, although I've been a fan of this site for a while now. I'm someone who's only gotten into Warhammer recently, but I really fell in love with the Imperial Guard.

 

Speaking honestly, 7th edition was a little complicated for me to jump into, especially with the wildly different power levels for codexes and the complicated rules for flyers, monstrous creatures, ect. I've tried my best to keep up, and things seemed like they would get better with 8th edition. It sounded like GW was committed to simplifying the rules and leveling the playing field. I was really excited.

 

...until I saw the new rules for Imperial Guard.

 

I'm sure others have different opinions, but to me it feels like GW has taken away almost everything that made this army unique. It is really disheartening to see some of the changes they have made. Platoons, combined squads, veteran customization- they got rid of everything that drew me to the Guard in the first place, and I don't particularly like anything they have given us to replace it with.

 

I built my army around platoons, supported by leman russes and veteran squads in Chimeras with carapace armor. I even converted my vets to give them a unique "armored up" feel. None of that, as I understand it, is viable now. There are no more platoons, which were the heart of the guard to me. No more way to combine squads, which gave our army great individuality. Veterans have lost all of their unique customization, and with the changes to Chimeras I honestly don't see any reason to field them. Essentially the way I played doesn't exist anymore.

 

Losing company and platoon command squads is another big blow. I guess the new game system wasn't designed to handle it, but having a single company commander running behind his men takes out a lot of the originality out of this army. I know people are still debating the merits of leman russ tanks, but from what I've heard they aren't going to be very competitive either. What is really frustrating is that it seems like there are now fewer units which are viable for us- which is the opposite of what GW promised. 

 

Perhaps the most frustrating part about this to me is that there doesn't really seem to be anyway to voice these concerns to GW. They made this massive change without really consulting Imperial Guard players. I know people are holding out hope that maybe a year from now we get a codex with some more personality and power, but it's hard for me to be optimistic now. They've done so much right so far with 8th edition in my estimation, but this feels like a serious mistake.

 

What are you guys thoughts on all this? Am I overreacting? I hope there is a silver lining that I haven't seen yet. Thanks for reading.

With regards to command squads - they still exist in the guard list, they just don't contain the actual commander anymore. And you know what? That's great! One of the biggest problems with Platoon/Company Command Squads is that Guardsmen are really fragile - making a Company Commander your warlord was often a terrible idea as a result, because they were tied to such a fragile unit. In the new rules, Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders are still fragile, but they're much harder to target, and thus remove, which really helps to protect your order sources.

 

The removal of platoons as an org-chart within a slot makes a lot of sense in the greater context of the 8th edition detachment system - There's incentive to take more choices due to being able to fill up larger detachments, and rolling so many units together into one slot would actually be bad for guardsmen, as it would make it much more expensive to fill up slots for CP. Not being able to blob up any more is more of a wash - on the one hand, it means you need more order sources, but on the other, with the changes to how buff characters work, their point is somewhat obviated, as you don't need to be a single 50 man unit for a commissar to benefit all the squads, for example.

 

The Veteran changes are a little confusing, though I guess that within the context of how normal guardsmen are now available, it does make sense to not have such a similar unit within the same slot, though I admit to missing the option of carapace armor.

 

The other intriguing thing I find, is that you get to disembark out of a Valkyrie after it moves 20" without penalty - and considering that you get to act normally after disembarking, it seems like a great way to deliver some Bullgryn to the fight.

 

Also - Hydras look incredibly cool now. The Fly keyword is really common, and a lot of them don't have the 'hard to hit' ability as well, so there's a lot of targets you'll get to shoot at on a 3+.

 

So long story short, Guard are some what different, but with the overall changes in the context of the game a lot of their tricks got better inherently - the wounding table change helps lasguns tremendously, for example (Because now they get to wound T5 on a 5+ instead of a 6+, and they can hurt T7+ at all)

Edited June 8, 2017 by MysticTemplar

[Prot]

You know Reece from Frontline gaming was involved in the play testing for months. He came to love the IG and thinks it's one of the better armies I the game now. He was saying the auras and changes to the vehicles are really good.

 

It might be a matter of relearning the army a bit and having so me patience with your own experimentation. Persoythe way I saw Reece talking about Astra I'm inclined to believe there are some gems I there that you will uncover in time.

[zero88]

I'd hold off judgement until the full book comes out for IG, as the new edition is often just to get things rolling. I remember in the 3rd edition rulebook (which also had initial codexes) the Dark Eldar Ravager for example was armed with 3 Lascannons.... yes.... lascannons. So give it some time IMO

[imperialguard]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to try to keep an open mind here.

 

One thing that is still tripping me up is trying to imagine breaking a 40 or 50 man blob down into individual squads. Each ten men squad is going to be incredibly fragile. It's going to be trickier to manage line of sight for five different squads, harder to keep them all within range for commissars and leadership buffs, harder to keep enough officers close to issue orders, it will be hard to keep them in any sort of coherency for overwatch, and each squad will collapse under any enemy assault or concentrated fire.

 

I'm not seeing a lot of advantages here. Even with whatever bonuses we get from command points it still seems like a lot of the strength of guardsmen is going to be dissipated by breaking them up like this into small squads. It also just takes one more thing away from this army that made them play uniquely.

[mertbl]

Honestly go play a game. I played a game against an ork.

 

Orders are really powerful.

 

Plasma is awesome now.

 

I didnt use vets. Use them as counts as scions and put the heavy weapons teams into squads.

 

Command squads spitting plasma and melta death are very good.

 

Used 5 10 man infantry squads. Flamers and autocannons. Work pretty well holding the line.

 

Lascannon heavy weapon teams did work. Dropping a deff dread in 1 round. And killing 2 mega nobs a turn.

[Ishagu]

Conscripts are a good shout if you want to run giant squads, especially with a Comissar nearby meaning they'll never lose more than one man to morale.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I can see how someone who was first introduced to Guard would find the changes in 8th very jarring and you'd feel like the army you loved was taken away, depending on the build you preferred.

 

As a Guard player who first fell in love with the army in 3rd, I am nearly weeping tears of joy each time I look at the new army list, because it feels like a real return to the IG roots and what I fell for the first time, but with the changes to 8th factored-in. There are no more characters with command squads in any army, so it was inevitable that our officers would now be solo, but as others have pointed out, this is actually a good thing because we get the benefits of command squads but with added survivability for our officers. Plus with auras things like medics got a lot better.

 

For us long timers, veterans as troops was always an abomination, so I am glad to see them not troops. But, if you want to field lots of veterans, there is the Vanguard detachment  -- 1+ HQ and then a bunch of elites, no need to buy troops if you don't want. Or you can use them as Scions I guess ... I mean, I've played tournaments where guys were using Death Korps Grenadiers (who have same equipment as Scions) as lasgun/flak armour vets, so its got to be fair game to go the other way in my view.

 

Also, the platoon org chart of yore was necessary back in 3rd edition where you would max-out on troop slots way too fast if each infantry squad was its own choice. And that was the reason they were organized the way they were -- to give us the ability to field the troops we needed. Now, it works greatly to our advantage to have them seperate since we can now max out on command points by filling up detachments easily. So this is a huge bonus and it's not like platoons are gone -- you can still take a platoon commander, his command squad, and infantry squads to make platoons. They just take up more than one troops slot which, again, is a huge bonus now to collecting command points.

 

As others have said, try a game -- I think you may be pleasantly surprised!

[morroccomole]

I second mertbl. Honestly, the changes aren't bad in the context of the overall game. Everything is generally more survivable, so you and your opponent will have to think hard about prioritizing what units to "delete" each turn.

 

To your point about line of sight: everyone can split-fire by default now, and intervening models no longer matter in shooting. Frankly, I had a harder time worrying about line of sight for a 30 man blob wrapping around terrain and the suchlike.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

PS I haven't played a game yet, but with the way battle shock works and how bloody this edition looks like it will be, I think that 10 man squads may be better than combined because then when the enemy lays down 20 wounds on your 10 man squad only 10 die, not 20 plus battleshock casualties. And since we no longer need to worry about spacing (no more templates) or who's in front, your commissar can be right in the middle of your squads to keep them in the fight.

[imperialguard]

Hey everyone, thanks for talking me off the ledge, so to speak. A lot of what you said makes sense, and I'll try to keep an open mind when the book arrives next weekend.

 

I'm still wrapping my head around the idea of chimeras no longer being an effective platform to fire from.Looking at the changes now, it honestly seems a little harder to justify not just taking a Taurox for grabbing objectives.

 

I suppose I can come to terms with switching veterans in my army out for millitarum tempestus, but it's still pretty damn frustrating after all the work I did building some carapace vets.

 

The Emperor gives and he takes away, I suppose.

[micahwc]

Watched a battle report on mini war gaming today. The ability to withdraw from combat to allow friendly units to shoot the close combat troops is really nasty, especially if you give the withdrawing squad the order allowing them to fire as well.

Charging 40 points of guardsmen into a hive tyrant to tie it up for a turn, only to withdraw and then shooting it with all your tanks is pretty nasty.

[duz_]

Welcome to the fray!

 

Dont fret the lack of flavour is just to get the ball rolling. We may well see it all return in our codex. I for one am really excited to see the regiment key word appear being a Mordian player myself.

 

Can I suggest you play your vets as counts as scions! Especially if you've put that much work into them.

 

As for voicing your concerns, this is the new GW they are listening. They could well be reading this thread. If you want to take it a step further how about a positive post on their Facebook page providing them with some constructive feed back?

 

If it makes you feel any better vanilla Space Marines have lost all their Chapter Tactics in their new index. ;)

 

Now you have me curious, I think you will have to post some photos of this army of yours!

[DrLoveMonkey]

I too was really disappointed by the loss of combined squads and platoons, but after watching a few games I can actually see why. Our orders are extremely powerful now, and we've got one for basically every situation, so thats pretty cool! Instead of requiring orders to boost a squad to mediocre effectiveness they actually make it go above and beyond what normal units are capable of.

 

Also now that things like commissars are all aura based you don't need to blob the squads to get full benefits, indeed, news the time to spread those around to your special weapons teams and stuff now!ill still keep a giant blob of conscripts as a meat shield but they're going to be there to protect my infantry sections. Hah! Imagine that, infantry sections are worth keeping safe now! Of course they in turn protect the tanks who protect the backfield artillery, with some Bullgryn and roughriders sprinkled in there as a surprise.

 

Of course this is all anti assault tactics, for other armies it's much different. I really like it though, the image of a hill fortified with line after line, layer after layer of defence makes us positively daunting to face.

[imperialguard]

Ha thanks duz. I'm still too shy about my painting to be showing off my regiment yet, mostly what I did for the carapace veterans was forge-world Cadian enclosed helms, along with some extra armor on the arms and legs.

 

I actually just finished a simple conversion to a  chimera for my company command squad- it had an officer leaning out the turret hatch and waving a regimental flag. I was pretty excited about how it worked out, only to learn today that the chimera/company command squad combination doesn't really work anymore. Whoops.

 

Scions really interest me actually, so I may take a closer look at them as well. One way or another I guess we all got to find some ways to purge the enemies of the Imperium.

[TheTrans]

Don't stress mate!

I used to run a huge blobbed squad with a space marine of some flavour in there and used my guys as the Tyrant's Legion. Looking over the list, I can still happily (almost) do that .

Commissars are so much better than everyone else's 'reroll morale checks'. You can box car...shrug your shoulders and take a single dude away. Snake eyes...same thing, not a lot can be said for many of the other races (orks and nids.. I know), still super good way of mitigating loses.

I really think Conscript platoons with a commissar and Senior Officer are the way to go..

Get 2 full conscript squads with commissar yarrick in the mix with a senior officer... Say you have 2 50 man squads with an enemy inside 12, with a FRF SRF order on both. That is a whopping 400 shots (If I'm reading the rules correct) with about 154 hits on target, now depending on what that is hitting..that is pretty gross..and glorious. All for 460pts.

Factor in short of snipers, those 100 conscripts will die to the last man, at most losing 6-7 guys each from battle shock over the coarse of the battle. So much fun. Then you add in say 3x3 Heavy Weapon platoons with commisariat and platoon command for support (30 is a steal for a commissar and Company Commander). With lascannons comes in around 280 pts, that is a lot of AT firepower going around there, hell even get some sweet medic action in.

This isn't even taking into lols of taking 6 platoon commanders with powerfists for 180pt character assassination squad. For those playing at home, that is 18 4+ S6 AP -3 D3 damage.. like..come on... how awesome is that?!?!

Anyway, think outside of the..in all honest. Quite constrained Guard Lists of yesteryear and embrace the crazy new guard shenanigans!! 

Quantity finally has a quality all of its own again!! 

Edited June 9, 2017 by TheTrans

[Tallarn Commander]

You all make some excellent points. Especially Nicodemus' comment comparing 8th edition to 3rd edition.

 

I enjoyed 7th edition. I won about a quarter of my games. My victories were usually against other sub-par armies like orks, Nids, Chaos, and IG).

 

I also enjoyed 3rd edition.I won about half my games. My victories were against all types of opponents except for ork speed freaks--they were my kryptonite).

 

8th feels a lot more like 3rd and this makes me happy indeed.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

3rd edition I actually took second overall in a tournament with a fairly typical Guard army, nothing min/maxed. All the batreps I am looking at are filling me with warm and fuzzies. I can't wait to get an actual game in.

[Otto von Bludd]

You can still make platoons if you want via detachements, except now you are rewarded command points for doing so.  Company Commander + 2-6 Infantry squads +HWTs +Special weapons squads.  It's a platoon in everything but name, except now you get the bonus of command points.  Your carapace vets can continue to run as vets, or you could run them as scions if you want.  Regarding the Chimera, don't jump to conclusions to fast, I think it remains superior to the Taurox.  You have 12 transport slots (10 man squad, plus 2 supporting characters), you are tougher (which is a big deal with the new damage table) and you can take the new king of close range weapons, the heavy flamer, twice!  Judging by the sounds of it, your list is going to be way stronger than it was in 7th, and the only thing you have lost are a few naming conventions.  I good trade if you ask me.

 

Edit:  As for the Russ, some people lament them based on some mathematical averages, seemingly ignoring just how awful they were in 7th.  You don't roll averages in games though, and the Russ is far more than just a battle cannon shooting at MEQs.  In contrast to the math though, I have not seen an 8th edition game where the IG player did not report afterward that the Russ was significantly better than in 7th.  Even where the player was lamenting how bad his Russes had become before he tried them in game.  As someone who used the Russ extensively in 7th, I can say I am only looking forward to using them now.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Bludd, the batreps I've been watching/reading seem to confirm what you say about the Russ. They seem to do a lot more than before. I watched a Guard vs. 'Nids batrep this morning and the guy rolled quite poorly with the Demolisher but then reduced a carnifex down to one wound with a Vanquisher (regular, not commander) with hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas. My Vanquisher command tank identically kitted out never did anything like that in 7th ... come to think of it, I don't think it ever did much of anything other than look really cool on the tabletop.

[Withershadow]

A lot of misplaced complaints.  Yes, blobs are gone, but they're a relatively recent development for platoon infantry squads.  You still have conscripts, commissars are super useful, veterans in carapace can be represented better by stormtroopers, vehicles are overall more competent rather than pill boxes, multi-wound models are more durable due to lack of instant death on double toughness.  The new edition in general, especially in the current "index" stage, favors numbers, which favors the Hammer of the Emperor.

 

So really it seems the only thing we've lost are demolition vets, or camo cloak vets.  That is a damn shame for sure, and veterans are definitely the biggest losers at first glance, but you really haven't lost that much overall.  Who knows, there may be some play in taking a small detachment of Catachan Veterans.  Straken or a company commander + Sgt. Harker + 2 vet squads is a vanguard detachment.  Give them 3 plasma guns and a lascannon per squad, and between Harker's bonus and orders, they effectively have preferred enemy.  Can even be a threat up close with rapid fire and orders and extra melee attacks from Straken.

 

Everyone has lost flavor overall, which will be re-introduced in the more specific codices, so I wouldn't stress over it too much.

[Gothical]

Hey guys, it's my first post on the forum, although I've been a fan of this site for a while now. I'm someone who's only gotten into Warhammer recently, but I really fell in love with the Imperial Guard.

 

Speaking honestly, 7th edition was a little complicated for me to jump into, especially with the wildly different power levels for codexes and the complicated rules for flyers, monstrous creatures, ect. I've tried my best to keep up, and things seemed like they would get better with 8th edition. It sounded like GW was committed to simplifying the rules and leveling the playing field. I was really excited.

 

...until I saw the new rules for Imperial Guard.

 

I'm sure others have different opinions, but to me it feels like GW has taken away almost everything that made this army unique. It is really disheartening to see some of the changes they have made. Platoons, combined squads, veteran customization- they got rid of everything that drew me to the Guard in the first place, and I don't particularly like anything they have given us to replace it with.

 

I built my army around platoons, supported by leman russes and veteran squads in Chimeras with carapace armor. I even converted my vets to give them a unique "armored up" feel. None of that, as I understand it, is viable now. There are no more platoons, which were the heart of the guard to me. No more way to combine squads, which gave our army great individuality. Veterans have lost all of their unique customization, and with the changes to Chimeras I honestly don't see any reason to field them. Essentially the way I played doesn't exist anymore.

 

Losing company and platoon command squads is another big blow. I guess the new game system wasn't designed to handle it, but having a single company commander running behind his men takes out a lot of the originality out of this army. I know people are still debating the merits of leman russ tanks, but from what I've heard they aren't going to be very competitive either. What is really frustrating is that it seems like there are now fewer units which are viable for us- which is the opposite of what GW promised. 

 

Perhaps the most frustrating part about this to me is that there doesn't really seem to be anyway to voice these concerns to GW. They made this massive change without really consulting Imperial Guard players. I know people are holding out hope that maybe a year from now we get a codex with some more personality and power, but it's hard for me to be optimistic now. They've done so much right so far with 8th edition in my estimation, but this feels like a serious mistake, and it feels really disrespectful to guard players.

 

What are you guys thoughts on all this? Am I overreacting? I hope there is a silver lining that I haven't seen yet. Thanks for reading.

 

I know others have already talked you back a bit, but here's my thoughts too.

 

Firstly, the Guard are massively improved by the various changes with 8th, even if there are some things that have lost some of their shine in the change-over. for every "weaker" unit (see debate over Leman Russes) there are two or more massively improved units, such as Bullgryn or Manticores.

 

I certainly understand being annoyed about the lack of options on Veterans and hopefully something will return in the eventual Codex. For now, you may be best served using them as Scions, or keep using them as Veterans - although Scions can carry 4 Special Weapons now there are benefits to using the latter, such as a heavy weapon and benefiting from Orders from regular Officers and not having to buy a Scion officer.

 

Chimeras are still brilliant, though the (game-wide) loss of Firing Points sucks. The Lasgun Arrays are reasonably powerful with the new way Wounds work, and you have the option of 2 Heavy Bolters (greatly improved weapons) and a Heavy Stubber for long-ranged work and 2 Heavy Flamers (which are stupidly good now) and a Storm Bolter for any unit that will be advancing up the board. Vehicles as a whole are tough to kill, and the ability to put someone like a vulnerable Officer, Astropath, whole entire Squad or similar into such a tough box in a pinch could absolutely save you games.

 

Combined squads though, are something that was relatively new to the Guard, and I have always felt they were a bad thing as it led to the irrelevance of Conscripts (why take them when for only a few points-per-model more you get better BS, better Ld and actual weapon options?). I do totally agree about the loss of the Platoon structure, that was one of my favourite things that I also felt was unique to the Guard. However, after discussing it with my local store manager I can see why perhaps it was dropped - apparently it was an incredibly difficult concept for players to grasp and was a nightmare to try to teach (and, interestingly, it was the adults who struggled more than the children). Combine that "entry problem" with the opening up of the Force Organisation Chart that has made the Platoon structure less necessary and it does seem sensible for it to go (even if I hate it still )

 

Also, the platoon org chart of yore was necessary back in 3rd edition where you would max-out on troop slots way too fast if each infantry squad was its own choice. And that was the reason they were organized the way they were -- to give us the ability to field the troops we needed. Now, it works greatly to our advantage to have them seperate since we can now max out on command points by filling up detachments easily. So this is a huge bonus and it's not like platoons are gone -- you can still take a platoon commander, his command squad, and infantry squads to make platoons. They just take up more than one troops slot which, again, is a huge bonus now to collecting command points.

 

As others have said, try a game -- I think you may be pleasantly surprised!

 

I hadn't thought of looking at building Platoons that way, that is a really clever idea. It will be limited by any "max detachments" caps people put on games (especially tournaments) but Guard could get bonkers with the Command Points.

 

Watched a battle report on mini war gaming today. The ability to withdraw from combat to allow friendly units to shoot the close combat troops is really nasty, especially if you give the withdrawing squad the order allowing them to fire as well.

 

Charging 40 points of guardsmen into a hive tyrant to tie it up for a turn, only to withdraw and then shooting it with all your tanks is pretty nasty.

That does sound neat, but I wouldn't use the order on a naked 40-point squad, Lasguns and a Laspistol won't do that much to something like a Hive Tyrant. However, it could be a fantastic niche for Veteran Squads - keep them buried in amongst your other units, rush them forwards to shoot & assault a threat like the aforementioned Tyrant, lose a few lasgun/shotgun guys in melee, then fall back & blast it with the good guns again thanks to the Order.

 

As it is, I plan on making sure I have at least 1 squad with Flamer and Power Weapon in each of my "platoons" to act as a counter-attacking staller, so the premise behind the tactic is certainly viable. Conscripts will be the true screen (especially as you can get them up to a 3+ save quite easily) but I feel a second/reactive wave between them and the rest of the infantry is warranted.

 

I actually just finished a simple conversion to a  chimera for my company command squad- it had an officer leaning out the turret hatch and waving a regimental flag. I was pretty excited about how it worked out, only to learn today that the chimera/company command squad combination doesn't really work anymore. Whoops.

 

It can work very, very well still - give the Chimera 2x Heavy Flamers, give the Command Squad a Heavy Flamer, whatever fun stuff you want (Medic, Standard Bearer if you want to represent turret-guy out of the tank, etc.) and then give the remaining men Special Weapons too - perhaps Flamers, to keep a theme going, but Plasma Guns are great on BS3+ models. This will give you 3D6 automatic S5 AP-1 hits (which is devastating) plus whatever else the Command Squad has, and allows you to keep using your cool conversion.

[Otto von Bludd]

Bludd, the batreps I've been watching/reading seem to confirm what you say about the Russ. They seem to do a lot more than before. I watched a Guard vs. 'Nids batrep this morning and the guy rolled quite poorly with the Demolisher but then reduced a carnifex down to one wound with a Vanquisher (regular, not commander) with hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas. My Vanquisher command tank identically kitted out never did anything like that in 7th ... come to think of it, I don't think it ever did much of anything other than look really cool on the tabletop.

 

I've seen multiple bat reps with the Demolisher and like you say, even with average to poor rolls it's still a monster taking huge gouges out of the wound pool of big enemy models.  The Vanquisher too is much improved but I honestly think its cannon is supposed to be STR 9, because the Genestealer Cult's Leman Russ Vanquisher Cannon is STR 9, and STR 9 makes the most sense in differentiating it from the Battle Cannon.  If they do make it STR 9 in a FAQ, which I think they will, it will have even more of a role to play, reliably putting wounds on T8 targets where the Battle Cannon is only wounding on 4s. 

 

edit: That was also my Vanquisher's main duty; looking really cool but not accomplishing very much.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[H311fi5h]

Unfortunately, even with strength 9 the Vanquisher would still be (as in mathematically worse against tanks than the Battle Cannon). With -4 AP and 3+D3 damage it could begin to see the light. I'm really curious what Forge World will do with their Vanquisher variants. I expect rerolls to hit with the coaxial weapons.

Edited June 10, 2017 by H311fi5h