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Really disappointed with 8th edition changes


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I've been drawing up a 2000pt list for the weekend and I just love the new list. Now I'm lucky in that everything I like got better or cheaper. Looking forward to seeing how my Russes match up as they're the only question mark I have.

 

The Platoon thing... I wasn't sure at all about combined squads going away (I don't really like Conscripts) but having drawn up a list with 5 squads, I don't think it will actually be bad at all. Auras will mean Commissars and Priests are still effecting lots of troops at the same time. You can only lose 10 models at most at a time now (Baal Predators... Shudder...). Orders are easier to get off so its not hard at all to get most of your old Platoon FRFSRF. Manoeuvring is a bit easier and more flexible, so you can use a squad of 10 as a road block while everyone else scarpers heroically moves back to better use the Emperor's Lasguns.

 

For me, the single best thing is the removal of templates. Now my Praetorians can form up in neat ranks. I'm even going to make some movement trays for them! Kneeling models in front, Standing to the rear.

 

As that great philosopher Duff Man once said: "Oooooooh Yeah"

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I think the loss of platoons is a bit give and take. Sure, you lose the ability to cram a bunch of units into a single slot, but that forces you to actually think a bit more about your slot choices rather than just loading up the platoons until you hit your points limit. Also, there's no more of the "go big or go home" attitude that the minimum sizes for platoons, formations, and decurions seemed to force (a bare minimum HQ and 2 Troops choices was seven squads, 55 dudes). A playable Guard army is now a lot cheaper in both points and dollars.

Edited by leinglo
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I am just hoping the 8th edition wyverns are decent, because I always wanted to buy a load of them but hate how long it takes to resolves multiple blasts. Now it looks like it should SHRED (heehee) even monstrous creatures like a machine gun.

 

Oh, and hell with the platoons, I am all about the conscripts!

Edited by bozo69pd
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Rest assured, Wyverns still look like a great choice. They're cheap and powerful, now with added survivability.

 

They're no longer an auto include just because everything else also looks like a good choice, which is a great position to be in. Hopefully this will more or less continue as new codices are released.

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I'd argue that Mortar Teams are generally slightly better. They offer more firepower for the same points, and they can block the backfield more effectively from deep striking. However, they are more vulnerable.

The biggest advantage of Wyverns should be the Master of Ordnance. Take two Wyvers, a Basilisk and a Manticore with the MoO standing in the middle buffing all 4 of them. That combo should allow you to nuke any threat, vehicle, monster or infantry, anywhere on the table. 

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I've scrounged up parts for Mortar teams from the darkest depths of my bitz box since they do look good now, you're right. Just need some appropriate bases for them.

 

That's an example of what I'm talking about though, a month ago comparing a Mortar team and a Wyvern would have been laughable! There are only a few things I would say are obviously outclassed (Why take Ogryns when you could have Bullgryns? Veterans for now seem fairly sub par etc) but for the most part most units are a decent choice, at the very least no there are no options that actively hinder you!

 

I haven't really thought about how some units now have very different roles though, I can see how that would frustrate someone who put a lot of time into writing a balanced list and then went and purchased it.

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I'd argue that Mortar Teams are generally slightly better. They offer more firepower for the same points, and they can block the backfield more effectively from deep striking. However, they are more vulnerable.

The biggest advantage of Wyverns should be the Master of Ordnance. Take two Wyvers, a Basilisk and a Manticore with the MoO standing in the middle buffing all 4 of them. That combo should allow you to nuke any threat, vehicle, monster or infantry, anywhere on the table. 

If I were facing Necrons or Dark Eldar which would perform better/survive?

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I find it odd that veterans are now elites, but storm troopers are now troops? You'd think the soldiers trained exclusively by the schola progenium would be a lot rarer than standard troops surviving a campaign (or however many battles that are required to be considered a veteran). The loss of combined squad was disappointing, but it's a return to old guard, before the days of 5th edition. I'm more disappointed in the fact that I still cannot give my guardsmen carapace or camo cloaks again, I miss my old doctrines. Would have liked my officers and sergeants to have access to shotguns and lasguns again too, even boltguns being made cheap special weapons for non-scion units would have been cool.

 

I like the fact that officers are now independent characters, makes hiding them a lot easier. Though orders got nerfed and buffed. Auto-passing is nice, but with the loss of combined squads getting those orders out to as many units as possible got a lot harder. Vox casters also got nerfed, they've become much more expensive if you want blanket coverage, also, only 18" order range from a vox?

 

Still not sure on many of the vehicles, I'll have to see how they play when I get some 8 edition games under my belts. 

Edited by jarms48
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I find it odd that veterans are now elites, but storm troopers are now troops? You'd think the soldiers trained exclusively by the schola progenium would be a lot rarer than standard troops surviving a campaign (or however many battles that are required to be considered a veteran). The loss of combined squad was disappointing, but it's a return to old guard, before the days of 5th edition. I'm more disappointed in the fact that I still cannot give my guardsmen carapace or camo cloaks again, I miss my old doctrines. Would have liked my officers and sergeants to have access to shotguns and lasguns again too, even boltguns being made cheap special weapons for non-scion units would have been cool.

 

I like the fact that officers are now independent characters, makes hiding them a lot easier. Though orders got nerfed and buffed. Auto-passing is nice, but with the loss of combined squads getting those orders out to as many units as possible got a lot harder. Vox casters also got nerfed, they've become much more expensive if you want blanket coverage, also, only 18" order range from a vox?

 

Still not sure on many of the vehicles, I'll have to see how they play when I get some 8 edition games under my belts. 

 

Whilst it is certainly a little odd fluff-wise, having ST as Troops means that players formerly using Codex: Militarum Tempestus can still play their armies.

 

Now that I've seen the Designer's Notes/FAQ thingy I am disappointed that Officers are lone models, given it is entirely possible for a mixed unit of Characters and Non-characters to exist (the whole unit cannot be targeted unless it is the closest model whilst the character lives). Balance-wise I can totally understand it - having 4 Melta/Plasma that you cannot target would be way too powerful - but it is rather aggravating.

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Now that I've seen the Designer's Notes/FAQ thingy I am disappointed that Officers are lone models, given it is entirely possible for a mixed unit of Characters and Non-characters to exist (the whole unit cannot be targeted unless it is the closest model whilst the character lives). Balance-wise I can totally understand it - having 4 Melta/Plasma that you cannot target would be way too powerful - but it is rather aggravating.

 

What do you mean? Are you saying that officers can't join other units, or are you disappointed with the removal of command squads and the fact that a command squad could not join another unit? I haven't seen the FAQ yet. 

Edited by jarms48
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What do you mean? Are you saying that officers can't join other units, or are you disappointed with the removal of command squads and the fact that a command squad could not join another unit? I haven't seen the FAQ yet. 

 

 

No Character can join any unit, but the FAQ gave the example of a Genestealer Cult model (Patriarch) that can take additional models (Familiar) as an item of wargear (and therefore creates a unit), then goes on to state that the unit formed of the Character and non-character model follows the same restrictions for targeting Characters until the actual Character-keyword model (in this case the Patriarch) dies (if the Patriarch dies and the Familiar does not, the "unit" returns to normal status and can be targeted etc. normally).

 

I had not realised that a combination Character/non-character unit was possible, and a similar wording could, in theory, have been applied to Officers and Command Squads to keep them functioning the same way they have previously (i.e. all one unit). I would have preferred this as the Guard are not really an army of stand-alone heroes (barring a few famous examples like Creed and Yarrick), but then I realised how broken it would be given the Command Squad's wargear options.

 

Hence, disappointment with an 8th edition change, even if I totally understand why.

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I've never really liked that you can tool up command Squads with 4 special weapons myself. They should be carrying Medi-packs, Vox's, Standards, maybe storm shields or something, not special weapons.

 

People talking about putting 3 "Command Squads" in Valkries doesn't sit well with me. It seems that Command Squads are almost the standard troop choice in min/max armies.

 

The separation of the Company Commander has only exacerbated this. If you had a Command Squad using the same rules as the Genestealer Patriach and "squad" that would be great, but only if the squad wasn't tooled up with special weapons. Then again my Command Squad follows my Company Commander about so there's really not much difference except that my Standard now actually does something useful!

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Agree on it being weird to have three command squads on suicide missions into the heart of the enemy. Nobody ever saw someone charging heroically into the enemy lines and thought "Ah, that must be the colonel's staff." I'm actually thinking of reflavoring them as penal legionaires. But you could do a lot of things.

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I suppose it's fine if you just use them as "Veteran Special Weapon Squads", it just always seems odd to see peoples lists containing more "Command Squads" than Guardsman Squads!

 

Having said that, my Scion Command Squad has 4 Volley Guns so who am I too talk... They are lead by a Sgt Harper kitbash though (With a Sharpe kitbash as my Tempestor Prime) which clearly makes it ok!

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Why suicide command squads, though?  Taking regular storm trooper squads let you still take 4 special weapons AND a vox caster, and have some ablative bodies.  With a 4+ save and being able to land into cover, they may not evaporate in one shooting phase.  Scion Command Squads may actually be quite viable as, well, actual command squads.  You can't teleport Commissars, so the banner actually is useful for the re-roll.  A medipack lets you bring back any model, so you can bring back that plasma gun that overheated and whatnot.  Just keep them central and surrounded by other Scions who block LOS to them.  After all the command upgrades, you only have one slot left for a weapon anyway, not worth exposing them for one shot.

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I have the same issue with the command squad, but very easy just to title them something else. Now they are a weapons squad and do the job better than a special weapons squad who have been made obsolete. I would not get too used to it though, once our codex comes out, maybe in a year or two, there will likely be more defining rules to how we structure our armies. No more command squads than you have officers, Storm troopers are only troops if you have a Storm Trooper Officer as the warlord, that kind of thing.

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You could always play with the Index if you don't want to use a specific army's codex. :P

 

Special Weapons squads do still have the distinction of being able to bring demolition charges, but yes, the command squad is just a flat better way to bring higher BS special weapons.  How about spamming grenade launchers?  They are actually a pretty good weapon now, I like it more than flamers anyway.

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All my squads have Grenade Launchers! This is most welcome news.

 

However my Command Squads will carry Flags. Why bring Plasma Guns when you can bring Flags? There's no tactical sense to it! Do you all just leave your Regiments Colours in the Barracks? Madness!

 

Next you'll have your men cowering behind cover, hiding their pristine uniforms from the enemy!

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Agree on it being weird to have three command squads on suicide missions into the heart of the enemy. Nobody ever saw someone charging heroically into the enemy lines and thought "Ah, that must be the colonel's staff." I'm actually thinking of reflavoring them as penal legionaires. But you could do a lot of things.

 

Or you go hard and make them like incredibly fluffy.  Ie. Command squad is all like guys with glasses with computers, and maps and the like. Charging with butter knifes. 

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