The Frag Cannon in 8th edition

[Prot]

So I was thinking of doing a wonky, multi purpose assault squad in a Corvus.... but then I started thinking about the Frag Cannon and Rhino rushes since i'm not too keen on Drop Pods.

 

Then it hit me that multi Frag teams in Rhino's could be a very strong unit if used correctly.

 

So they are assault weapons... that Auto hid 2D6 times.

 

T1, Rhino moves, and advances.

 

T2, Unit disembarks (beginning of turn now) within 3" and moves/advances and then ignites everything it can.

 

Units assaulting are taking 3-4 Frag Cannons x 2D6 auto hitting.

 

Units get too close? Move away, "advance" away, each frag cannon can still hit 2D6.

 

This is the way I'm reading it. And it seems like a potentially strong tactic just simply because the Frag is S6, and that's going to do work against a vast majority of stuff, and anything it can't reliably hurt you'd just switch modes.

 

I'm just thinking of some of the nasty assault armies I'm seeing and in the last edition you didn't see them as much but when you did they were extremely difficult to deal with, but now the Frag overwatch, and ability to allow 'advancing' and Fragging seems potent.

 

What do you guys think? Is this valid or am I missreading something? 

[Runefyre]

Seems legit to me! Bonus points if you take them in a razorback for some added long range firepower.

[TheSauce]

I've played a couple of small games of 8th edition (1000 pts / PL 50), and the frag cannons have been consistent stars.

 

Advance + Auto-hit means you have a pretty big threat range ( 6" + D6" + 8" ) to lay down some serious hurt against almost anything, and being able to choose casualties means the frag cannons can sit at the front of the unit to threaten opposing charges (overwatching 2D6 autohits as well), and hang around until the unit is completely destroyed.

 

I've been taking 2 frag cannons per unit, so I have 3 more expendable bodies before the big guns go down. I haven't tried mechanizing them yet, though. That's probably a better idea against armies with longer range, protecting the frag cannons until they can get into range.

[Moostick]

Sounds like a solid plan that fully utilizes the Assault profile and negating the -1 to Advancing.

 

This idea would be amazing if we get storm shields cheaper, and you top it off to a full 10-man unit (3-6 storm shields). It'd be a walking tank that no one would assault while being able to weather incoming fire.

 

Right now, the downside would be it's too high risk, high reward. The unit would get one turn of shots off before getting killed by return fire.

 

Edit: To further clarify, I believe this style of unit needs to have 4 FCs; if we only take 1 or 2, they won't be enough of a deterrent to charges, and they likely won't be able to kill a charging enemy outright. If they get stuck in melee, their effectiveness is essentially neutered, and falling back will waste a turn/get them killed. There's also the issue if your opponent is feeling ballsy and charges you at 9" away; then you don't get those autohit overwatch shots.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the unit may be to expensive to work, it'd be around 300 points that relies on five marine wounds (which things die super fast now). I think a couple of units like it may work, and if i understand the edition correctly the transports aren't tied to unit any more so you could place them into different vehicles depending on what you need. So I think its viable but I wouldn't spam it.

[Prot]

Well I'm thinking two methods... one is a razorback style with maybe 2 Frags. The other can't be spammed.... it would be 4 Fragcannons and a full Rhino.

 

Or a larger squad pouring out of a Corvus including a Vanguard Vet to allow for retreating without penalty.

 

I realize the Corvus build is meant to have staying power and can't be spammed but the Corvus itself is a pretty darn punishing flyer ( imvamt see taking more than one).

 

The rest of the army would support the Corvus unit with cheaper options and perhaps a teleport homer or two so that you can sucker your opponent into chasing them in a remote area and just pull them off the game able. I think there might be a combo in here with the homer

 

Again this could be a pipe dream. I'm always looking for ways to exist on our own, and I still,love the Corvus.

[MeltaRange]

After spending some time with the army indexes, I think the Frag Cannon is probably the best Infantry gun in the entire game.  The 2d6 auto hits in Overwatch make it worth having 1 in every unit, I believe.

[Vel'Cona]

Oh, good point! I hadn't realized the restriction on 1d6 from 7th's Wall of Death rule has been lifted. Hmm, now I'm glad I have 8 of these buggers.

[Prot]

Oh, good point! I hadn't realized the restriction on 1d6 from 7th's Wall of Death rule has been lifted. Hmm, now I'm glad I have 8 of these buggers.

I know right? So think of nids/GSC/World Eaters... etc going for a first/second turn assault. If they're within 8" then 4 Frags are laying down 8 x D6 hits! That is going to hurt.

[Kargrym]

Oh, good point! I hadn't realized the restriction on 1d6 from 7th's Wall of Death rule has been lifted. Hmm, now I'm glad I have 8 of these buggers.

I know right? So think of nids/GSC/World Eaters... etc going for a first/second turn assault. If they're within 8" then 4 Frags are laying down 8 x D6 hits! That is going to hurt.

but if they take a 9" charge (even with the phantom inch) from a deep strike, you don't get those hits, just the solid shells.

[Vel'Cona]

Oh, good point! I hadn't realized the restriction on 1d6 from 7th's Wall of Death rule has been lifted. Hmm, now I'm glad I have 8 of these buggers.

I know right? So think of nids/GSC/World Eaters... etc going for a first/second turn assault. If they're within 8" then 4 Frags are laying down 8 x D6 hits! That is going to hurt.

No doubt. Although the Infernus HB is going to offer a reasonable challenge to the FC's dominance in that market, now . . .

Hmm, do Anvil Industry make a bit for this?

Update:

http://anvilindustry.co.uk/The-Armoury/Heavy-Weapons/exterminator

BY THE EMPEROR!

[MeltaRange]

The IHB is pure crap compared to the Frag Cannon.  The Heavy vs. Assault Designation is huge as is the extra d6 automatic hits and the extra point of strength.  If I want a long range bolter, which is the only real benefit of the IHB (besides it's cool looks) then I'd go with 3 regular HBs for 5 points more than 1 IHB.

 

Also, Kromlech makes a Frag Cannon as well.

 

http://bitsofwar.com/home/479-legionary-frag-launcher.html

[Prot]

You're right 9" takes them out of flame death range, but that's the point. If you start making opponents try all their charges from 9" away that's in your favour.

 

All those solid shells will be like mini las cannons plus your poison rounds. I think the goal would be to have your opponent try charges at 9" and kill one or two models and hopefully he fails the charge.

 

If not, you retreat with your Vanguard and hopefully burn him down regardless. The unit needs a tank to go all out like this or you go MSU with 2 Frags each.

[Kargrym]

So make group with frags and VV, fly back 6", flaming, then land and "say come at me bro, I can do this all day"

[leth]

If you are taking a lot of frag cannons I would include some barebones terminators for increased survivability. With the number of points you are putting into the unit terminators are a really cheap way to help it stay alive.

[Kargrym]

If you are taking a lot of frag cannons I would include some barebones terminators for increased survivability. With the number of points you are putting into the unit terminators are a really cheap way to help it stay alive.

 

haha Terminator with <Jump Pack>, or Biker with <jetpack>. the modeling in my head makes me laugh.

[Prot]

If you are taking a lot of frag cannons I would include some barebones terminators for increased survivability. With the number of points you are putting into the unit terminators are a really cheap way to help it stay alive.

 

Yes in the Corvus group that was the plan. One VV and one Termie. Unfortunately for the Rhino squad this won't be possible. I was just re-reading drop pods again and was disappointed to realize that Termies can't fit.... kind of stinks. 

 

This to me indicates a codex will have to let the Deep Strike in of unique units again as transport options are extremely rare.

[hmk17]

Another frag cannon from a popular shapeways store. 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/QPWS8XHXR/3x-mk1-blackwatch-cannon-w-pack?optionId=60528145

[SnakeChisler]

Drop pods are a side issue there not going to be any real use in 8th from initial tests

 

Few games in and the Tau player in our group is already changing stuff round quite a bit, drones as screening units and also pathfinders as thier dirt cheap. Also infiltrators

 

This pushes any DS further away

 

1St round charges are going to be a thing seen a few demo games and screening and being able to effectively counter attack is going to be a key tactic something that Rhino squads should be good at.

 

The more you pump into frag cannons the fewer bodies your going to have and Marines are far more survivable this edition + special ammo took a real boost. Survivable because everyone is getting the -1 penalty for heavy weapons and boost coz s4 wounds on 5's up to t7 and vengeance rounds can really strip wounds off stuff very quickly.

 

2 per squad again seems a balance.

 

Seen a couple of horde games and nids/Orks are going to make a mess of 7th armies & the new poxwalkers.

 

I'm excited I think even with the cost of Deathwatch we have the tools to deal with a lot of stuff, before we needed a decent amount of points in an ally I think this edition is going to be very different.

[Irbis]

The more you pump into frag cannons the fewer bodies your going to have and Marines are far more survivable this edition + special ammo took a real boost.

Yeah, I don't get why everyone is still talking about Storm Shields. I found them borderline in 7th and now, with their new cost, I'd just take another marine 9 times out of 10. Slightly better save is cute, but it's bodies/guns that are doing all the work now, not toys, and if your extra guy was sniped by lascannon or something you just can think of it as a 'passed' save on SS...

http://bitsofwar.com/home/479-legionary-frag-launcher.html

https://www.shapeways.com/product/QPWS8XHXR/3x-mk1-blackwatch-cannon-w-pack?optionId=60528145

I still don't get why people pay 21 euro for 3 guns, especially seeing whole DW kill team box can be had for less, or considering the fact original, GW frags are 2-4 euro on bits sites with an added bonus of not having problems in stricter GW stores...

[Silas7]

You're right 9" takes them out of flame death range, but that's the point. If you start making opponents try all their charges from 9" away that's in your favour.

 

All those solid shells will be like mini las cannons plus your poison rounds. I think the goal would be to have your opponent try charges at 9" and kill one or two models and hopefully he fails the charge.

 

If not, you retreat with your Vanguard and hopefully burn him down regardless. The unit needs a tank to go all out like this or you go MSU with 2 Frags each.

 

Lets not forget that the FC can overwatch a transport with it's solid shells and if the squad destroys it and get charged by the squad that just jumped out of the now smoking wreck, the FC can now unleash the auto hits if they are within range if not pump out some more solid shell shots. watch masters re-roll misses are going to be a massive boost to this weapons damage.

[Moostick]

Yeah, I don't get why everyone is still talking about Storm Shields. I found them borderline in 7th and now, with their new cost, I'd just take another marine 9 times out of 10. Slightly better save is cute, but it's bodies/guns that are doing all the work now, not toys, and if your extra guy was sniped by lascannon or something you just can think of it as a 'passed' save on SS...

 

Have to keep hope alive that the 15 might actually be a 5. We must believe.

 

Edit: suck at quoting on phones

[Prot]

Few games in and the Tau player in our group is already changing stuff round quite a bit, drones as screening units and also pathfinders as thier dirt cheap. Also infiltrators

 

This pushes any DS further away

 

1St round charges are going to be a thing seen a few demo games and screening and being able to effectively counter attack is going to be a key tactic something that Rhino squads should be good at.

 

The more you pump into frag cannons the fewer bodies your going to have and Marines are far more survivable this edition + special ammo took a real boost. Survivable because everyone is getting the -1 penalty for heavy weapons and boost coz s4 wounds on 5's up to t7 and vengeance rounds can really strip wounds off stuff very quickly.

 

2 per squad again seems a balance.

 

Seen a couple of horde games and nids/Orks are going to make a mess of 7th armies & the new poxwalkers.

 

I'm excited I think even with the cost of Deathwatch we have the tools to deal with a lot of stuff, before we needed a decent amount of points in an ally I think this edition is going to be very different.

 

Yea I just don't see the Drop Pod being worth a darn right now. I really want to use it but I can't figure out any angle that makes it remotely useful compared to other options. (especially since this thread is about the Frag cannon, it seems even more useless).

 

About Tau... yea.... They are pretty sick. I just got tabled by them. Battle suits are sick, and a lot of heavy AP and >D1 type stuff just melts marines. SO much T5 is extremely hard for typical marines though. I can't tell you how annoying it is to try to wound on a '5' for most of the game (normal bolters) and have no AP on those bolters on top of it. The extra wounds, extra T, and you absolutely cannot hold them in combat. They will roast you if you get too close. 

 

Screening with Drones is super annoying too...... I actually think Deathwatch are a better 'alpha' on Tau than other marines now, except... one problem... slow as heck.  That's where the Frag Cannon will have to 'Advance' then hope you're in range to burn 'em down. The Flyer is going to play a big part here. 

 

Really though new Tau is different than old Tau but I actually think it's better!

 

Our tournaments (largely ITC, but not always) and our gaming groups got really tired of the 'stand back and shoot you to death' game styles of the Alter of War missions. So that's why we consciously moved to Maelstrom for (not tournament) games.

 

The thing is Tau had some probs with Maelstrom. But now Obsec is dead, Tau's BEST units move super fast, and cannot be kept in CC, AND they are way more survivable now. 

 

They're even better at CC too. They hit on whatever they hit on. Not like 7th where they're skill could be so bad at times compared to yours.... and then moral is so much better for them on solo units. I've made Riptides run from taking 2-3 wounds... now that's impossible.

 

I think more than ever it's going to take just a mix of Poison and Frag.

[Silentz]

I think part of the benefit of a drop pod that can be no scatter deep struck at will any time turns 1-3 is the mind games.

 

You are forcing your opponent to keep using models as bubblewrap when they could be doing useful stuff like taking objectives or assaulting things. 

 

True, they are borderline value... but they are not useless in creating difficult decisions or suboptimal deployment for your opponent.