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Tide v Horde


Firepower

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How about something like this:

 

2 x full crusader hammer/fist squads with Grimaldus & Cenobytes

 

4 x min heavy bolter crusader squads

 

5 x Ven Dreads with Las/Auto

 

Bare bones Cap & Bare bones Primaris Lieutenant (I know, I know. ..call them the Master of Ordinance or something)

 

That's 10 lascannon shots and 20 autocannon shots hitting on re-rollable 2+, re-rolling 1s to wound, screened by 4 small deep strike prevention units, covering the advance of 40 morale-immune troops.

 

7 CP for maxing lascannon damage, that should give your opponent something to think about at least.

 

I dunno, that doesn't feel very Templar like to me. Efficient and powerful yes, but Templar? Not doing it for me really. 

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How about something like this:

 

2 x full crusader hammer/fist squads with Grimaldus & Cenobytes

 

4 x min heavy bolter crusader squads

 

5 x Ven Dreads with Las/Auto

 

Bare bones Cap & Bare bones Primaris Lieutenant (I know, I know. ..call them the Master of Ordinance or something)

 

That's 10 lascannon shots and 20 autocannon shots hitting on re-rollable 2+, re-rolling 1s to wound, screened by 4 small deep strike prevention units, covering the advance of 40 morale-immune troops.

 

7 CP for maxing lascannon damage, that should give your opponent something to think about at least.

2 points over 2000 with the Primaris. Drop him and put in an Apothecary to help get those guys over the table.

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I dunno, that doesn't feel very Templar like to me. Efficient and powerful yes, but Templar? Not doing it for me really.

 

That's cool, everyone will have their own feelings about that kind of thing, and I appreciate is not exactly full of codex cover units.

 

It's got 44 crusading foot sloggers though, and dreads are like ancient, gun covered reliquaries, so it still works for me :)

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Actually I could see that sort of deployment for a defense of something super important, waking up all the old knights in the place, grabbing the big guns, and hunkering down until the Big Daddy Fleets arrive to reinforce and allow the chainswording to begin :lol:

 

But overall, stabby > shooty for Templar 'feels.'

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Maybe Predators if you don't already have the Dreadnought models?

 

Also you have so many lascannons that you could save the money on the Hammers/Fists and have Axes instead.

Edited by Gendo
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Fine! :) Not enough tanks, too many guns....how about:

 

2 x 5/5 man crusader squads in Godhammers

 

1 x 5/5 man crusader squad with Grimaldus and Helbrecht in an LRC

 

2 x double autocannon Ven Dreads

 

Only 35 bodies now, so much less of a tide, but more of a Pow, Right In The Kisser approach than before?

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I feel like we're getting a wee bit off the mark, so let's look at it this way:

 

In a 2000 point list, you can have 8.333 Crusader Squads of 20 bare bones Templars, which is about 160 models and some change.  Instead of starting the list building at 0 points and adding our way up, let's use that as the beginning and work our way back.  Set a bar that you consider 'Tide' worthy, like 50 or 60 bodies, and work to keep from dropping below that number.

Edited by Firepower
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3x 20 Man squads with LasPistol, PowerAxe, PlasmaGun and GravCannon to get more shots when moving and 4 Boltguns = 882

 

Seems versatile and as you take casualties you remove the Boltguns. Ideally having the Retinue and Apothecary is essential in large squads so 2x 20 man is the max i would run but not really a tide.

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I feel like we're getting a wee bit off the mark, so let's look at it this way:

 

In a 2000 point list, you can have 8.333 Crusader Squads of 20 bare bones Templars, which is about 160 models and some change.  Instead of starting the list building at 0 points and adding our way up, let's use that as the beginning and work our way back.  Set a bar that you consider 'Tide' worthy, like 50 or 60 bodies, and work to keep from dropping below that number.

Ha ha, sorry. I think I got list tourettes and started randomly shouting things at the Internet :)

 

Meanwhile, back at the tide list....

 

The two biggest problems seem to be morale and durability. 20 man squads suffer from morale losses heavily, so currently Grimaldus seems essential to prevent that. I can't find a way to provide any defence while the tide crosses the board other than situational cover etc. And there's no Hide in Tide. Well, actually, there nearly is, I suppose, but details like that smell of Xenos trickery and witch talk....

 

If we had an Azreal ++ bubble.... <swoon>

 

Any mileage in a VV (sword brothers) list? Everyone with a cheap storm shield for added protection, but they can still be drowned in small arms, so it's probably not a keeper. 60 VV and support characters can fit in 2000 points, so it reaches tide level bodies, at least?

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I don't think you need to be on foot to have 50-60 bodies. If your average marine is 15 points (taking into account veterans and neophytes) then 50 marines is only 750 points. That leaves plenty of room for some transports to help protect some of them
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I don't think you need to be on foot to have 50-60 bodies. If your average marine is 15 points (taking into account veterans and neophytes) then 50 marines is only 750 points. That leaves plenty of room for some transports to help protect some of them

Completely, apologies, I was just trying to throw out some conceptual stuff for a heavy footslogging list. But you're absolutely right, plenty of room for transports if you want to go mech.

 

The problem I'm finding is with full 20 man squads, there aren't any transports you can use (apart from FW), so there is little protection for your T4 no ++ models, even with armour on the table to support them. If you reduce the numbers to fit them in transports, I'm struggling to capture the tide feel in terms of body count.

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++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [101 PL, 1990pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain Grimaldus [6 PL, 120pts]

 

High Marshal Helbrecht [9 PL, 170pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 180pts]

. 2x Initiate

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Sword Brother: Combi-plasma, Power sword

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 180pts]

. 2x Initiate

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Sword Brother: Combi-plasma, Power sword

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 180pts]

. 2x Initiate

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Neophyte: Boltgun

. Sword Brother: Combi-plasma, Power sword

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 148pts]

. Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power sword

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Power sword

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 148pts]

. Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power sword

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Power sword

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 148pts]

. Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Chainsword

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power sword

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Neophyte: Combat knife

. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Power sword

 

+ Elites +

 

Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts]

 

Chapter Ancient [4 PL, 67pts]: Power sword

 

Honour Guard [2 PL, 50pts]

. Honour Guard: Power sword

. Honour Guard: Power sword

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin assault cannon

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [101 PL, 1990pts] ++

 

Just throwing stuff together to see what a mech tide might look like. 66 bodies and 7 Rhino hulls doesn't seem too shabby really, no thought at all given to how it would work though, I'd probably drop a squad or two and their transport to bring some more elite options which would cut into the numbers a bit, likely JP troops or *gasp Terminators for their deployment options.

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I don't think you need to be on foot to have 50-60 bodies. If your average marine is 15 points (taking into account veterans and neophytes) then 50 marines is only 750 points. That leaves plenty of room for some transports to help protect some of them

Completely, apologies, I was just trying to throw out some conceptual stuff for a heavy footslogging list. But you're absolutely right, plenty of room for transports if you want to go mech.

 

The problem I'm finding is with full 20 man squads, there aren't any transports you can use (apart from FW), so there is little protection for your T4 no ++ models, even with armour on the table to support them. If you reduce the numbers to fit them in transports, I'm struggling to capture the tide feel in terms of body count.

Honestly I think that 20 man squads are a liability, especially with all the 4+ saves they will have. There is a reason why orks have Ld = to their squad size to help mitigate heavy losses. I think you can still capture the feel of tide with 12 or 16 man squads and have the protection of a durable and deadly transport. Just my 2 cents though ;)

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Looks good, you could swap 2 Rhinos for 2 Pods and have 2 Grav-less squads out of each, BTs everywhere!

 

Or even better, if now Pods block line of sight have 3 of them land up field with Deathwind launchers and 2 squads with HB/StormBolter, then squads on foot instead of Rhinos and use the points for Anti Tank. 

Edited by Gendo
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+ HQ +

Chaplain Grimaldus [120pts]

The Emperor's Champion [108pts]

+ Troops +

2x Crusader Squad [590pts]
. 7x Initiate: w/CCW
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power Axe
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. 5x Neophyte: w/Boltgun
. 5x Neophyte: w/CCW
. Sword Brother: w/Plasma Pistol, Power Axe

 

6x Crusader Squad [474pts]
. 3x Initiate w/Boltgun
. Initiate w/Heavy Bolter
. Sword Brother: Storm Bolter

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Assault Marines [123pts]
2x marines w/CCW

2x Marines w/ Plasma Pistol, Chainsword

Sargent w/ Plasma Pistol, Eviscerator
 

+ Elites +

Apothecary [55pts]

Cenobytes [6pts]: 

 

Company Veterans [2 PL, 149pts]

2x Veterans: w/Thunderhammer, Storm Shield
2x Veterans: w/Lightning Claws, pair

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin assault cannon

3x Drop Pod [324pts]: w/Deathwind Launcher

++ Total: [2003pts] ++

 

I think could work vs horde, lots of shots out of the Pods, 2 large Crusader squads with Grimaldus+Ret and Apothecary. Razorback with Vets and EC, plus CC Assault squad.

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Maxed out Crusader Squad or 2, Grimaldus, add 2 Cenobytes, a Crusade (Company) Ancient, an Apothecary. You can use Grimaldus' Ld instead, which is 10 thanks to the Ancient's banner, which is irrevelent because Cenobytes let you auto-pass morale. Chainswords grant an extra attack, plus Grimaldus grants another attack for each 6 to hit. Now factor in all those rerolls to hit in the fight phase because of Litanies of Hate. A model is removed as a casualty? In a 4+ he can shoot or swing one more time immediately before being removed, factor in the Chainsword and Grimaldus (Litanies of Hate and Unmatched Zeal). Then, in your next movement phase, that Apothecary can revive a casualty on a 4+. Keep in mind that you can spend a command point to reroll ANY die roll. I doubt y'all have too terribly much to worry about.
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It could just be me but I think for tide in this edition the ideal is several small units. Altogether you'll still have lots of bodies but they'll have more special and power weapons and less susceptible to morale. Plus with transport rules you can pop them in all sorts of taks or drop pods and have just a couple larger units with some neophytes to keep that squire feel.
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Something to consider for a Black Tide army are Chaplain Dreadnoughts, they now give +1S to other units locked in the same combat as them. A nice bonus that along with Helbrecht will make Crusaders strength 6, not too shabby.

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I think in this edition Vanguard Veterans with no jump packs will be my new Crusaders, they have 2W 2A and can be equipped with double Chainsword (4A total?) for 16 points, double the Wounds and Attacks for 3 points more.

 

Gets more expensive as you grow in models because no Neophytes but I'm happy to run 10 man squads at 160pts and have less of a footprint gaining better buffs.

 

After seeing an Orks game who roll 5A I got sad about our 2, does the thinking adds up or it's just me?

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I am trying so hard to make a large 20-man squad work...but I am not entirely sure that multiple of those squads is viable.  I just keep turning myself down.  I think that we're going to see a lot of bodies on the ground for a bunch of other armies, for cheap and we simply cannot compete with that.  Especially when the weaponry of the world now negate our armor like never before.  So we need to leverage our strengths elsewhere...but I am not going to give up on the possibility of at least ONE large blob unit in the list.

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I am trying so hard to make a large 20-man squad work...but I am not entirely sure that multiple of those squads is viable.  I just keep turning myself down.  I think that we're going to see a lot of bodies on the ground for a bunch of other armies, for cheap and we simply cannot compete with that.  Especially when the weaponry of the world now negate our armor like never before.  So we need to leverage our strengths elsewhere...but I am not going to give up on the possibility of at least ONE large blob unit in the list.

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere I think a couple of heavy armed pods zoning out the enemy could give enough cover/time for on foot blobs to advance.

 

The idea is to negate as much line of sight as possible by zoning enemies in their own cover and blocking their main paths, and having them deal with the fire coming out of 4 squads, a 12" deathwind launcher and the pod itself if they want to pass through.

 

Will give it a go next week.

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