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Tac Marines in 8th...

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#1
neonmole

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Hi guys,

 

I, like most of you am trying to figure out what a decent BA list looks like in 8th... I am grappling with a specific question.

 

I want to run a brigade, and take "troops", both from a fluff perspective, but also because I would like to try and take advantage of the new command points system. Problem is, I am wondering how best to take troops and it not feel like dead weight (and expensive dead weight at that!!)

 

Originally I was thinking 10 man units in Rhinos would be the way to go, but the more I consider it, the more it feels like the Razorback is so much more efficient in terms of points. Granted you lose 4 models, but you turn what is otherwise a pretty useless metal box into a pretty decent light tank...

 

As such, my conclusion is that the following is the optimal setup for Tacs in 8th:

 

6 Marines  

Melta-Gun

Combi-Melta on the sarg

Powersword on the sarg (origionall I thought 'fists, they are just so expensive, especially with -1 to hit, seems the sword is better for 4pts)

Razorback with twin assault cannon (seems like the most solid default choice, though you could switch it to plug gaps if  you needed)

 

That comes to 220 by my calculation... is this a good unit do we think? Or just polishing a turd... so to speak...

 

You will obviously notice I have foregone the heavy flamer / flamer setup in favour of melta. This is because I feel like the supirior way to take those weapons is on a similar devastator squad in razorback

 

6 Marines

4 x Heavy Flamer

Combi-flamer

Powersword

Razorback with twin assault cannon

 

263

 

This squad seems to me like it could be extremely good against pretty much any target, really want to try and include in some way...

 

 

I would be  curious to get a sense if people think units like this will actually be points efficient / effective in in 8th... They seem so expensive to me! But I guess that is the benchmark for costs in the new edition...

 

Also - in general is this a way of running BA that other people have been considering?

 

Just looking to bounce some ideas around!

 

Cheers


Edited by Jolemai, 01 September 2020 - 09:37 AM.
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#2
DarkProdigy

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I've been pondering this as well. Coming from spearhead force I've always done tri-flamer 10man tacs in ravens but that feels far too expensive now. Razorbacks seem to be my favorite vehicle so far looking into 8th.

#3
Dont-Be-Haten

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I think it all depends on what you are going to face.

scouts are the better troop choice. being able to infiltrate anywhere on the board to flat out stop your opponents deep strike, the ability to put mortal wounds on characters etc. just leaves tactical marines wanting.

The assault cannon while good, leaves a lot to be desired when facing the plethora
of T8+ which is why I feel the lascannon is better.

A rhino with 2 Storm bolters and a HKM, makes a great delivery system, but I would rather have Storm Ravens and Storm Hawks, because they are so brutal with their fire power, until the meta-shifts. Look at seeing a ton of air on the board.

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#4
Arkhanist

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I'm thinking of taking tacs in razorbacks, as you are, but I'm thinking plasma/combi-plasma as my standard, more suited for hunker down on an objective and plink away. Maybe a multimelta if I'm expecting more high wound targets.

 

Company vets with JP will be my 'meltacide' squad.


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#5
Indefragable

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I think Troops was the weak point of our Faction in 7th, and it looks like it could be that way in 8th as well.

 

I think a unit of Sniper Scouts w/ camo cloaks may be mandatory for saving points/filling out Troops slots. And the potential threat they provide to enemy buffing units is something the enemy has to at least divert a unit or two to deal with...TO THEIR DOOM.

 

I do really like your idea of turning Devastators into the premeir barbecue squad. It's actually quite brilliant. Melta/Combi-Melta (infintite use!) is a good idea, but my concern is that--based on all the mathhammer dudes crying foul--they won't be able to take down vehicles quite the way we expect them to.


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#6
terminatorAM

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I've been thinking about squeezing 2 five-man tactical squads into a single Rhino since they can take multiple units now. Then 2 heavy flamers and 2 combi-flamers can disembark and roast tar-pit units to clear the way for close combat squads changing out of razorbacks.

I really like razorbacks this edition, but I also want at least one Rhino in my list to charge into close combat before any infantry so that it can stop shooty enemies from having multiple overwatches. Just an idea that hasn't been tested yet.

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#7
Indefragable

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I've been thinking about squeezing 2 five-man tactical squads into a single Rhino since they can take multiple units now. Then 2 heavy flamers and 2 combi-flamers can disembark and roast tar-pit units to clear the way for close combat squads changing out of razorbacks.

I really like razorbacks this edition, but I also want at least one Rhino in my list to charge into close combat before any infantry so that it can stop shooty enemies from having multiple overwatches. Just an idea that hasn't been tested yet.

 

It's a really good point.

 

The hidden value of Rhinos in 7th was that they blocked Line of Sight. In our case, that meant Jumpers could move up behind a wedge of cheap sight-blockers to attach the enemy lines. In contrast, Razorbacks were more of stand-off weapons, depositing dudes on an Obj and then moving off to keep the enemy at arm's length.

 

Now Rhinos really favor the aggressive Troops choices since they can not only continue to block LoS, but also have eat that Overwatch with minimal concern.


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#8
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I've been using the assback with a 5 man melta/combo melta (or dual inferno pistol) squad. The assback clears hordes on the way up, then the tactical squad jumps out and shoots down any monsters/heavy infantry/vehicles that get close. I would recommend mixing the razorbacks arms though if going for a full blown brigade. You likely don't need that many assault cannons, and might benefit from the plasma or lascannon variants.

#9
Arkhanist

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Depends upon what you're facing. Razorback or rhino quad heavy flamer devs are kinda a fire and forget weapon. I've been planning on them too (2 more ebay tac heavy flamers coming to fill up my squad). They'll be great against horde infantry, like nids. Anything would be nuts to charge them due to flamers autohitting on overwatch. But they'll be very vulnerable to being shot off the board, especially since they'll be sat right next door. One option I'm going to try is a heavy flamer razorback to double down on the BBQ, and then perhaps charge a nearby anti-infantry shooting unit with it.

 

But a distraction unit that forces the enemy to use limited anti-infantry shooting getting rid of it means less guns pointed at say, my DC or VV or SG. If they've got plenty, then the flamer devs would have to be used carefully to get their points worth.

 

I was previously thinking 2 5 man tac squads with full flamer loadout in a rhino, but I'm worried it'd waste points on ordinary marines that are kinda just a distraction unit after they've fired. I might just double down on scouts instead. And definitely more armour to add options (full las or auto/las preds are looking good for bigger targets, as are shooty dreads).

 

Either way, I'm magnetising the heavy flamer helmets so they can be used in tac or dev squads depending upon which turns out to be the better use of them. 

 

If I didn't already have a couple of tac heavy flamers I would have bought these, I think. And the bitspudlo razorback heavy flamer turret is just too sexy not to find a use for :)

 

q7MVvjN.jpg

 


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#10
tychobi

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For me 5 man with missile launcher.  Cheap and effective enough vs all targets to draw fire.  Place in cover and blast away.  Play to the strengths of tac marines, cheap(ish) and versatile. 

 

I think that the transport question is a good debate meaning that the points are fair.. . .ish, but they certainly do not define how tac marines will perform.  No intrinsic mobility and big cost of transport leaves tacs in a spot so i think we should rely on shooting to earn our points.  

 

My big sadness is the 8 inch range on flamers.  Makes the drop pod kinda out of the question for tac and our unique heavy option a bit anemic.  Only shines in countering a charge which leaves the choice in your opponents hands.  not my bag


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#11
Crimson Ghost IX

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I love Razorbacks and Rhinos. Meched up Tacs is alot of fun in past editions and will still be effective in 8th I think. Definately doesn't suck anyway.

 

Tho in past editions you ran MSU to really get Razospam going and I question whether enough mass can be achieved with the higher point costs.

 

Also you mentioned the Brigade. I think trying to fill a brigade is a bad idea under 2000 points probably in 8th, for us anyway as so much is likely sacrificed for a reroll or two. It is my belief that having 6 command points total is a nice floor to build towards. 12 is more than you likely needed before things are decided. So there is that. Maybe two 3pt battalions to get 9 is easier?

 

I am gonna jump into 8th with fewer vehicles (still gonna use some) and go with more Jump Troops for delivery options. I really do see the use of meched tacs in a balanced force tho. Only half your army units can reserve and somebody has to roll out on those objectives while the flyboys get the glory.

 

I really think the move and fire penalty is going to make it harder to decide which vehicles to use most effectively for marines generally. More than might be considered by folks currently anyhow. That aside tho, tanks are still great on the tabletop for many many reasons and will continue to be in 8th I am thinking. I just think BA might better excel in other areas currently besides razorspam. Perhaps I am wrong tho, which is fine since I have like 6 of em.

 

I like a double LasCannon razorback parked in the back with lascannon 5 man ok if I want to do that with a tac squad.

 

That BBQ squad in extra crispy Rhino might be a great way to fill in the troop slots and is in the BA toy column... It is 3 units in one drop to go first also... so there is that too.

Mmm Mmm Good. Will probably run along with my Baal Predator with Flammenwerfer at some point to werf things with flammen hehhehheh.

 

 

Plus I just like saying "How about a little fire Scarecrow?"


Edited by Crimson Ghost IX, 15 June 2017 - 08:44 AM.


#12
Xenith

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I really think the move and fire penalty is going to make it harder to use many vehicles most effectively for marines generally.

 

I don't get this: harder than in 7th, where you either stay still, or move and fire 1 weapon at full BS and the rest at A -3 modifier to BS? Or move 12" and dont get to fire anything?

 

the -1BS when moving 12" is a joke for vehicles after they were crippled moving from 4th - 5th ed, they have overnight become much better.

 

Unless by harder to use, you mean more options that take thought to decide what to use biggrin.png

 

Assback with TL assault cannon:

 

 

7th ed Move 6", fire, get 3-4 hits after rerolls

8th ed, move 6", fire, get 6 hits after -1 modifier.

 

7th ed Move 12", fire, maybe 1 hit after rerolls

8th ed, move 12", fire, get 6 hits after -1 modifier.

 

Shooting with tanks is much better.


Edited by Xenith, 15 June 2017 - 07:58 AM.

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#13
Crimson Ghost IX

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I really think the move and fire penalty is going to make it harder to use many vehicles most effectively for marines generally.

 

Unless by harder to use, you mean more options that take thought to decide what to use biggrin.png

 

Assback with TL assault cannon:

 

 

7th ed Move 6", fire, get 3-4 hits after rerolls

8th ed, move 6", fire, get 6 hits after -1 modifier.

 

7th ed Move 12", fire, maybe 1 hit after rerolls

8th ed, move 12", fire, get 6 hits after -1 modifier.

 

Shooting with tanks is much better.

 

 

Yeah I cleaned that up. It was very unclear =)



#14
MordentHex

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Expect a lot of people to be bringing lascannons and such with high strength and d6 damage weapons.  with that said, i would just put the points from the razorback into another squad or a cheapo rhino because yoru tank will die quickly. With models that only have 1 wound a lascannon is back to being just a waste of points again. If you fight an ork or Nid player with mobs you will thank me on this and you will be seeing those armies coming back into circulation.

 

Back to basics:

10 man squad with a flamer and a missile launcher, serg with a combiweapon(whatever flavor you like) done.


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#15
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I'm thinking a set of 2-3 tactical marine squads is going to be well worth their points on the board. 10 bodies per squad isn't that expensive, but gives you objective sitting bodies that your opponent has to chew through in order to capture objectives. I plan on taking tacticals in my list, but I also want scouts. Sniper scouts. Lots of them.


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#16
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As you might've noticed from the SG and DC threads I like numbers, so here are numbers (or well, the charts from the numbers). All based on a tac squad having moved, so heavies hitting on a 4+, and close enough to be in rapid fire/flamer range:

 

2G9SwR4.jpg

 

RGBJdnI.jpg

 

I see a number of options. Though the normal flamer isn't particularly brilliant (not bad, it just doesn't offer a lot compared to others given the range issue) the Heavy Flamer is king at close range against infantry. If I was going to use this it would be hopping out of a transport so either a 10-man squad with Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma + Power Weapon in a Rhino or a 6-man unit in a Razorback minus the normal plasma. Of course the 10-man unit could just be run as 2x 5-man squads each with Heavy Flamer and the combi on the Sergeant, which would give a bit more damage efficiency but I haven't looked at morale resilience with that yet. Whichever way they're run I'd be looking to hop out, blast away and then follow up with a charge. I see a transport as the only realistic way to get them in flamer range. The plasma would be because it's about the same efficiency as a basic flamer against horde when rapid firing even without overcharge, is stronger aganist anything tougher and can operate beyond 8".

 

As an all-round heavy the Grav Cannon is extremely good. It has the bonus damage against high wound/armour targets and the multiple shots keep it effective against infantry too, even on the move. I'd look at putting this in a squad moving on foot or drop pod, and again combine it with plasma and/or combi-plasma for all-round efficiency.

 

If I feel I'm going to face a lot of high wound, high toughness targets I'd be tempted to swap the plasma for Meltaguns. While it'd drop efficiency against basic infantry it provides the high damage potential against tough targets, and bolters are already capable against basic troops. The reasoning for Meltaguns even though overcharged plasma is just as strong is that the Melta doesn't have the rolling 1s risk, and while I might have characters with reroll auras they're most likely going to be following specialised units rather than a Tac squad.

 

I just don't see many other weapons being as effective. Though none are useless and all are upgrades over a bolter those above just stand out for me.

 

Heavy Flamer: King against hordes, though you have to make sure it gets in range fast.

Plasma Gun: Versatile all-round special, high damage potential against 'Monsters' but self destruct risk in doing so.

Meltagun: The simple, lower risk "anti-tough" special when you don't want to risk overcharging plasma, though less versatile.

Grav Cannon: Very efficient all-round and still amongst the strongest "anti-tough".

 

Lascannons are obviously great against tough targets but no more so than a Grav Cannon, which is more effective against other things too. Missile Launchers are stuck in the middle, not offering a lot of efficiency given the points rise they got. Both do offer long range but for me I like my Tac Squads operating within 24" of the enemy and combining both shooting and assault. I'd rather take a Dev Squad to sit further back and utilise the longer range, as they can pack in more heavy weapons - or more vehicles.

 

I'm just a little torn on the Plasma vs Melta choice for Tacs. I do like the versatility of the plasma, and ability to join the bolter in firing up to 24", but it really needs to be overcharged against anything multi-wound and that is a risk when the meltagun can do it safer. Probably just leave it in safe mode on Tacs unless something tough nearby really needs the extra damage, and see where else I might be able to amass plasma in combination with a character to provide rerolls.


Edited by Thoridon, 15 June 2017 - 12:56 PM.

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#17
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As you might've noticed from the SG and DC threads I like numbers, so here are numbers (or well, the charts from the numbers). All based on a tac squad having moved, so heavies hitting on a 4+, and close enough to be in rapid fire/flamer range:

 

2G9SwR4.jpg

 

RGBJdnI.jpg

 

I see a number of options. Though the normal flamer isn't particularly brilliant (not bad, it just doesn't offer a lot compared to others given the range issue) the Heavy Flamer is king at close range against infantry. If I was going to use this it would be hopping out of a transport so either a 10-man squad with Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma + Power Weapon in a Rhino or a 6-man unit in a Razorback minus the normal plasma. Of course the 10-man unit could just be run as 2x 5-man squads each with Heavy Flamer and the combi on the Sergeant, which would give a bit more damage efficiency but I haven't looked at morale resilience with that yet. Whichever way they're run I'd be looking to hop out, blast away and then follow up with a charge. I see a transport as the only realistic way to get them in flamer range. The plasma would be because it's about the same efficiency as a basic flamer against horde when rapid firing even without overcharge, is stronger aganist anything tougher and can operate beyond 8".

 

As an all-round heavy the Grav Cannon is extremely good. It has the bonus damage against high wound/armour targets and the multiple shots keep it effective against infantry too, even on the move. I'd look at putting this in a squad moving on foot or drop pod, and again combine it with plasma and/or combi-plasma for all-round efficiency.

 

If I feel I'm going to face a lot of high wound, high toughness targets I'd be tempted to swap the plasma for Meltaguns. While it'd drop efficiency against basic infantry it provides the high damage potential against tough targets, and bolters are already capable against basic troops. The reasoning for Meltaguns even though overcharged plasma is just as strong is that the Melta doesn't have the rolling 1s risk, and while I might have characters with reroll auras they're most likely going to be following specialised units rather than a Tac squad.

 

I just don't see many other weapons being as effective. Though none are useless and all are upgrades over a bolter those above just stand out for me.

 

Heavy Flamer: King against hordes, though you have to make sure it gets in range fast.

Plasma Gun: Versatile all-round special, high damage potential against 'Monsters' but self destruct risk in doing so.

Meltagun: The simple, lower risk "anti-tough" special when you don't want to risk overcharging plasma, though less versatile.

Grav Cannon: Very efficient all-round and still amongst the strongest "anti-tough".

 

Lascannons are obviously great against tough targets but no more so than a Grav Cannon, which is more effective against other things too. Missile Launchers are stuck in the middle, not offering a lot of efficiency given the points rise they got. Both do offer long range but for me I like my Tac Squads operating within 24" of the enemy and combining both shooting and assault. I'd rather take a Dev Squad to sit further back and utilise the longer range, as they can pack in more heavy weapons - or more vehicles.

 

I'm just a little torn on the Plasma vs Melta choice for Tacs. I do like the versatility of the plasma, and ability to join the bolter in firing up to 24", but it really needs to be overcharged against anything multi-wound and that is a risk when the meltagun can do it safer. Probably just leave it in safe mode on Tacs unless something tough nearby really needs the extra damage, and see where else I might be able to amass plasma in combination with a character to provide rerolls.

 

hey man I really like your charts and the analysis you have been doing, its been very informative. One thing to note tho that one of the main benefits of all flamer weapons is overwatch, it could make them up to twice as effective as they are being shown on the graph because they essentially get to fire twice (obviously not guaranteed).


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#18
Thoridon

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The charts aren't gospel but I like the rough idea they give me for planning my units for the new version. Glad others find them useful :)

 

I agree with the overwatch benefit to some extent. It's certainly something I'll be using a lot with my Imperial Guard, as I might well move them into flamer range, use the extra shots order to give the lasguns 4 shots each plus flamers (which help negate the weaker BS 4+) and then instead of charging maybe sit back to overwatch with the same massive numbers of lasgun and flamer shots. They have the low cost and number of bodies to lure enemies in like that, and for Guard the 6+ overwatch with lasguns is closer to their normal 4+ than it is for us.

 

With Marines I think I'd want to keep firing and charging rather than waiting to overwatch, which obviously isn't always easy to do when the enemy is trying to do the same, but with bolters no longer being unable to charge after firing it's become a lot easier. The flamer is also less of an upgrade for us with BS 3+ than it is for anything that hits on 4s or 5s. Plus if you do sit further back and the enemy tries a charge from beyond 8" (such as deep striking) the flamer doesn't get to overwatch anyway.

 

The flamer certainly isn't awful, and if your unit is going to get up close vs hordes it will be as efficient as several other options, I just personally don't feel it offers the versatility I want in my Tac Squads. As I say, in my IG force I'll have a LOT.


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#19
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Man, I hadn't expected MM to come out so poorly vs grav-cannon given the similar points cost. 5 man foot tac squad with grav cannon and combi-plasma sitting back a bit to cover objectives against fast movers or doubled up in a rhino to cover midfield looks pretty damn good, given I've plenty of other places to put heavy flamers. Guess I'm finally going to have to buy some!


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#20
Thoridon

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The MM is a tough one being D6 damage. It can beat the Grav Cannon if you hit and roll a 5-6, which would be a nice jump higher. On the other hand you could roll a 1-2 and end up being far less effective. For statistical purposes I modelled a D6 roll as 3.5, which obviously is impossible but should reflect the long term average damage. You just have to remember each individual hit will likely be above or below that mid-point. The multi-melta also suffers a bit more on the move, with that 50% chance of missing outright.

 

The Grav Cannon also has variable damage on armoured targets (I modelled D3 as being 2 damage) but the variance is going to be less extreme, plus the 4 base shots mean more chance of at least having some land when on the move. Being S5 it will wound anything from T6 - T9 on a 5+ which isn't great but then the -3AP and D3 damage kick in. The 4 S5 shots keep it versatile against T3 and T4 targets, wounding on 3s, and against those single wound models the D3 damage (or lack of, for weaker armoured infantry) is irrelevant.

 

I think the grav cannon sits in an extremely versatile place right now for a mid-range unit, having the profile to be pretty much the same effectiveness against everything and either being close to or exceeding the specialised weapons in the two extremes. Only the Heavy Flamer beats it as a specialised anti-horde heavy weapon and the overcharged plasma gun and multi-melta are ever so slightly more points efficient against T6 3+ creatures.


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#21
Xenith

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Hey man, great charts, any chance you could mod those last two for T4 3+ save, the most common thing we'll be shooting? I'm interested to see melta v plasma for that.

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#22
Thoridon

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Aye, the Tac charts were quick ones I did based on a few profiles I face (not Marines!). My newer charts have MEQ added in, so I'll go back and add it to these.


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#23
Morticon

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Thoridon, 
 

thanks for what you're doing for the community. 
 
Its hugely appreciated. 
 
Please keep it up for as long as you have time ^_^ 

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#24
Helias Tancred

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I apologize for the heresy,  but in 8th edition are heavy flamers and flamers so beneficial?

 

Don't get me wrong, they are good for what they do, but if you need your tactical squad to shoot, and shooting has gotten better in 8th, I'm not sure if they should be so prevalent in our tactical squads?

 

... unless the goal of your tactical squads is normally to close to CC with your enemy?


I have three of my six tactical squads equipped with heavy flamers (and two of those three have a flamer, and a combi-flamer) ... I'm thinking of cutting one out and going with a multi-melta? Leaving two of my Tactical squads being full flamer squads?



#25
Bartali

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Expect a lot of people to be bringing lascannons and such with high strength and d6 damage weapons.  with that said, i would just put the points from the razorback into another squad or a cheapo rhino because yoru tank will die quickly. With models that only have 1 wound a lascannon is back to being just a waste of points again. If you fight an ork or Nid player with mobs you will thank me on this and you will be seeing those armies coming back into circulation.

 

Back to basics:

10 man squad with a flamer and a missile launcher, serg with a combiweapon(whatever flavor you like) done.

 

No. On average it takes nine Lascannons to blow up a Rhino. Worst case scenario - Lascannon moved, Rhino popped smoke, in terrain - it takes 21 Lascannons on average to blow up a Rhino

 

I think people are going to have a really hard time dealing with mech spam unless they have Melta out the wazoo


Edited by Bartali, 15 June 2017 - 11:16 PM.






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