New Issodon Rules - Sneaky Peaky

[Lemondish]

 

 

Super disappointed at this trend of leaving Primaris out of everything. It makes me sad because I actually kind of hate the squat vanilla models.

You can still SftS your Primaris and keep the squat vanilla Devastators with all their Grav-Cannons and Special Issue Boltguns with Lias... Then you just need some Sniper Scouts or Vanguards to start on the board and move up in support. The perfect plan...

I don't have any of the squat vanilla marines (any longer) :(

 

But Lias may be worth picking some up.

 

I made an issodon for my raven guard in 7th, but then again, my group is more on the competitive side; my buddy's deathwatch blackshield army he made in 5th have been whitescars, ultras, Raptors, red scorpions and chaos depending on what characters he wants to convert up and use.

 

Don't quite understand the no primaris rule negativity. Primaris are really cool models, but in taking issodon you'd never have a 100% primaris force; stfts can be used in place of his rule as well so it's not like they're getting left in the dust

I'd love to have a 100% Primaris force when it comes to Infantry (except for some characters, of course), and this is just one of what seems like a dozen examples of Primaris not being included for arbitrary reasons. It's mostly the big transports I have the biggest gripes with. A Stormraven can transport termies and a dreadnaught, but not Intercessors? Like whyyyyyyy. At least I could theoretically convert a Primaris marine into Lias since his model isn't available.

 

Back on topic, though - so Devastators and Sternguard seem to be the common theme here for the special rule...I suppose the beakie helms help the situation on the modeling front lol

Edited August 15, 2017 by Lemondish

[SkimaskMohawk]

Command squad is cheaper than Sternguard and has the bodyguard rule, only reason to take sterns is for a 10 man unit. I've already had the multimelta debate earlier about devs so I won't rehash that, grav is better against t4, but worse on average against vehicles.

 

Pretty much always go for command squads for the most efficient use of points, unless going for max squad size, and then take sterns

[TheBattenBurger]

I used Lias' rules to create a strong ambush unit. Everyone at my Local Club thinks he's a tad OP so I didn't want to go all out, Fluff was the main Objective.

 

In combination you have:

Lias Issodon

Lieutenant (Primarchs Wrath)

Apothecary (Warlord with Storm of Fire)

Sternguard (x10, Special Issue Boltguns)

 

They all arrive in one group in the 12"-15" sweet spot. All your Sternguard get RapidFire on their AP-2 Guns and the opponent suffers -1 to hit you because of the Chapter Tactics.

You start with the Sternguard and you use their Special Stratagem. Thats 20 shots that reroll all failed to hits, ReRoll 1s to wound and then get +1 to their wounds. Any sixes (and 5s thanks to the +1) become AP-3 Instead of AP-2.

If somehow the Marine squad your shooting isn't dead, you still have the Lieutenant to shoot with the Primarchs Wrath and Lias Issodon. Trust me, rolling those 6s to wound with Lias is cruel, AP-5 Ignores Cover :D 

I have quite Regularly removed a squad a turn with these guys.

You may be wondering why the Apothecary? Firstly its cool being able to bring a Sternguard back from the dead, more shots is more shots after all. But also people tend to pick on Lias, giving him a way to regrow those wounds is great. Plus the Apothecary being the Warlord means that Lias is less of a target.

It's cool to imagine these guys all waiting for the perfect time to reveal themselves and ambush the enemy like Raptors should :D

[Lemondish]

I used Lias' rules to create a strong ambush unit. Everyone at my Local Club thinks he's a tad OP so I didn't want to go all out, Fluff was the main Objective.

 

In combination you have:

Lias Issodon

Lieutenant (Primarchs Wrath)

Apothecary (Warlord with Storm of Fire)

Sternguard (x10, Special Issue Boltguns)

 

They all arrive in one group in the 12"-15" sweet spot. All your Sternguard get RapidFire on their AP-2 Guns and the opponent suffers -1 to hit you because of the Chapter Tactics.

You start with the Sternguard and you use their Special Stratagem. Thats 20 shots that reroll all failed to hits, ReRoll 1s to wound and then get +1 to their wounds. Any sixes (and 5s thanks to the +1) become AP-3 Instead of AP-2.

If somehow the Marine squad your shooting isn't dead, you still have the Lieutenant to shoot with the Primarchs Wrath and Lias Issodon. Trust me, rolling those 6s to wound with Lias is cruel, AP-5 Ignores Cover

I have quite Regularly removed a squad a turn with these guys.

You may be wondering why the Apothecary? Firstly its cool being able to bring a Sternguard back from the dead, more shots is more shots after all. But also people tend to pick on Lias, giving him a way to regrow those wounds is great. Plus the Apothecary being the Warlord means that Lias is less of a target.

It's cool to imagine these guys all waiting for the perfect time to reveal themselves and ambush the enemy like Raptors should

 

I really, really like this. Creates a separate fire base opening another front somewhere else on the field that is resilient, impactful the moment they land, and could be supported by drop units when needed. 

[Alcyon]

Command squad is cheaper than Sternguard and has the bodyguard rule, only reason to take sterns is for a 10 man unit. I've already had the multimelta debate earlier about devs so I won't rehash that, grav is better against t4, but worse on average against vehicles.

 

Pretty much always go for command squads for the most efficient use of points, unless going for max squad size, and then take sterns

 

Command Squad can't take the Special Issue Bolters or use the Sternguard Stratagem, but they can take all Special Weapons which is better than the Sternguard's ability to only take Combis. Plus they can take a combo of Specials and Storm Shields to make them really survivable. Personally I wouldn't do this with RG CT though because the 12" rapid fire range breaks the -1 to hit ability, so I think it's better suited to chapters that need to reply on Drop Pods for Deep Striking Plasma. I would SftS some Hellblasters before bothering with a Command Squad.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The -1 is icing on the cake, not something you let yourself be handicapped trying to accommodate. Its like in 30k when people try and give their night lords terminators anything that's not a powerfist to "take advantage" of their trait. Just go with the best option, the one that has the highest damage against targets for points costs. I also think people are tending to forget the fact that being within 15" to rapid fire special bolters or incinerators, means the opponent's unit moves 3" to deny our Tactics.

 

Hellblasters don't have the bodygaurd rule, with the trade up being -4 to save and one more wound, but that's for an additional 18 points. The 10 man sternguard unit does on average 9 (11 with stratagem) unsaved wounds compared to around 8, better against pure marines, worse against any other targets. If you want an anti marine unit take aggressors and SftS them, you get 21 wounds on average with the same Issodon-LT-Storm of Fire buffing, though for 26 more points.

 

Take all comers unit is command squad for sure based on the cost for the unit, marine unit and less would be aggressors.

[Lemondish]

The -1 is icing on the cake, not something you let yourself be handicapped trying to accommodate. Its like in 30k when people try and give their night lords terminators anything that's not a powerfist to "take advantage" of their trait. Just go with the best option, the one that has the highest damage against targets for points costs. I also think people are tending to forget the fact that being within 15" to rapid fire special bolters or incinerators, means the opponent's unit moves 3" to deny our Tactics.

 

Hellblasters don't have the bodygaurd rule, with the trade up being -4 to save and one more wound, but that's for an additional 18 points. The 10 man sternguard unit does on average 9 (11 with stratagem) unsaved wounds compared to around 8, better against pure marines, worse against any other targets. If you want an anti marine unit take aggressors and SftS them, you get 21 wounds on average with the same Issodon-LT-Storm of Fire buffing, though for 26 more points.

 

Take all comers unit is command squad for sure based on the cost for the unit, marine unit and less would be aggressors.

Sure, the unit you're targeting can move 3'' to reduce the -1 to hit, but the opponent has more than one unit able to hit back, and the more space you have to stay at range and hit hard the more likely you are to benefit from the CT.

 

Also, Hellblasters aren't able to play with the Lias ability if that's what you were suggesting.

[SkimaskMohawk]

A previous poster suggested using them with SftS instead of plasma command, which is why I mentioned them.

 

3" isn't a huge deal, especially not to gimping efficiency 

[Lemondish]

A previous poster suggested using them with SftS instead of plasma command, which is why I mentioned them.

 

3" isn't a huge deal, especially not to gimping efficiency

But the fluff, man.

 

Second, if it's the only way to get my local group to accept an out of print forge world unit (that's two marks against it for those counting), then so be it.

 

Third - Sternguard are the only hunched over squat marines I can stomach. Those proportions for non-Primaris are just so weird.

 

Finally, and an actually (somewhat) relevant point - I don't see the value in ambushing with devastators that already can achieve efficient shooting at their preferred targets from turn one with more resiliency than a Lias ambush could provide. Most other infantry cannot, not without spending CP, so that is why this looks just as valid.

 

Sorry about the misunderstanding on the Hellblasters. I think I misread what you were saying.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Lemondish

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not sure what OOP forgeworld model you're talking about. If it's Issodon, he never had a model in the first place

 

Use the Sternguard models and give them plasma guns? Command squad veterans were never anything specific; it was the Banner/Apothecary/Champion that drew the eye.

 

Also not sure what you're saying for point three. A few other people have advocated multimelta devs to get them in melta range, which is alright when dealing land raiders or models with a significant amount of wounds. That's where devs come up in the conversation, I personally don't advocate them unless your opponents role with a lot of single targets.

[Alcyon]

It's all about the Grav-Cannons on the infiltrated Dev Squads, the 24" range is a handicap vs. other weapons but they do very well against almost all targets especially with re-rolls.

[Dragolord19d]

It's all about the Grav-Cannons on the infiltrated Dev Squads, the 24" range is a handicap vs. other weapons but they do very well against almost all targets especially with re-rolls.

Personally I'm thinking of using my multi melta or autocannon Mortis Dreadnought and primus marines as bait with my stormtalon giving them topcover, once the enemy moves in to attack I'll ambush them with a 10 man Tac squad w/missile and grav, a 5 man Dev w/Grav and M-melta and a special-issued Sternguard for me... once I can afford the sternguard due to the Stormtalon and Dev draining my spare cash...

[defl0]

I made an issodon for my raven guard in 7th, but then again, my group is more on the competitive side; my buddy's deathwatch blackshield army he made in 5th have been whitescars, ultras, Raptors, red scorpions and chaos depending on what characters he wants to convert up and use.

 

Don't quite understand the no primaris rule negativity. Primaris are really cool models, but in taking issodon you'd never have a 100% primaris force; stfts can be used in place of his rule as well so it's not like they're getting left in the dust

 

Well, I personally have some issues with primaris. The models are cool and probably the scale they always should have been... BUT I don't like that GW basically then killed off a bunch of chapters and repopulated them primaris. 

 

Like Blood Angels are basically all primais now... 

 

It would have been better if the original marines were better at something. 

 

And it seems ridiculous that the squads aren't mixed too. There aren't primaris stern guard? No primaris devs?

 

In general its just handled poorly

[MajorNese]

 

It would have been better if the original marines were better at something. 

And it seems ridiculous that the squads aren't mixed too. There aren't primaris stern guard? No primaris devs?

Well...you're saying primaris should replace every single regular marine, but regular marines should be better in some way? Well, regulars are better at sternguarding, devastatoring, and have a lot of tactical flexibility with combi/special/heavy weapons while being cheap (including their multitude of transports), while primaris excel at the legion approach, one unit for every target.

 

Primaris have filled one release window to the maximum, as well as have a lot in the Dark Imperium box. Compare that to other new armies (skitarii) and their 4 kits, and primaris are very well equipped...

[Lemondish]

Back on topic - would a full Sternguard unit with Special Issue bolters alongside an LT using the Storm of Fire warlord trait with Lias be equal to or better than going the combi weapon route? I'm particularly focused on the stratagem and the rerolls the LT brings, but there's some tactical flexibility from having a bunch of special weapons in addition to normal bolter fire (the rerolls limiting the issue of firing both). The third unit would be the aforementioned Multi-melta or grav cannon Devastators, of course. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Back on topic - would a full Sternguard unit with Special Issue bolters alongside an LT using the Storm of Fire warlord trait with Lias be equal to or better than going the combi weapon route? I'm particularly focused on the stratagem and the rerolls the LT brings, but there's some tactical flexibility from having a bunch of special weapons in addition to normal bolter fire (the rerolls limiting the issue of firing both). The third unit would be the aforementioned Multi-melta or grav cannon Devastators, of course. 

 

 

The 10 man sternguard unit does on average 9 (11 with stratagem) unsaved wounds compared to around 8, better against pure marines, worse against any other targets. If you want an anti marine unit take aggressors and SftS them, you get 21 wounds on average with the same Issodon-LT-Storm of Fire buffing, though for 26 more points.

 

Take all comers unit is command squad for sure based on the cost for the unit, marine unit and less would be aggressors.

 

Gravs do 11.9 wounds against 3+ t4 after burning the cherub, 5.6 to any vehicle with a 3+ and higher than toughness 5. Totally forgot that they count as having moved, so any heavy weapon based squad would have to be deployed vis SftS to get full value. It's actually 8.7 vs marines and 4.8 to most vehicles for gravs. Multi-meltas push 3 past vehicles, which should kill one.

 

Once again, plasma is cheaper for a TAC approach; stern-combo and grav (stfts) will outperform against normal marines, but aggressors really can't be beat for that niche of murdering power armour and less. If we're talking pure what to drop with Issodon's rule, then it's plasma, or multi meltas if you really need to alpha strike something like a sicaran, otherwise you won't kill it due to toughness (with a bit of armour mitigation if it's a land raider) or the additional -1 to hit if it's a flyer; plasma's 12ish wounds on T7 3+ is good enough most of the time.

 

Plasma command costs less than any other proposed squad and while it loses out on infantry killing to the stern combo, it kills vehicles way better; grav does worse on average because of the Heavy modifier, while multi meltas are only better in extreme high-roll cases. 147pts for TAC supremacy 

[highwind]

The thing most people overlook in this context is that Sternguards Special Issue Boltguns having a 30/15" range compared to the 24/12" range of Plasmaguns.

 

12" between you and your target means that the average enemy unit (6" movement, 2D6 charge) needs a 5 or more to successfully charge your Sternguard, which is a well over 80% chance.

15" between you and your target means that the average enemy unit needs a 8 or more to successfully charge your Sternguard which is only about a 40% chance (so less than half as likely).... It also means that the enemy unit has to move to avoid the -1 hit modifier from the Raptors CT.

 

Also, with 5 Plasmaguns Veterans every wound you take really hurts at 29pts per model and rerolling all hits from Lias also actually increases the chance of Plasma overheating when compared to only rerolling ones from a captain.

 

 

For me Sternguard with Special Issue Boltguns is the single best unit you can drop with Lias... (Grav-)Devastators are better deployed with Strike from the Shadows Stratagem because of the negativ hit modifier (though they DO work with Lias aswell because the reroll to hit ability becomes relativly stronger with less BS) and any form of deep striking Plasmaguns is far better utilized in form of cheap allied IG units like Elysian Command Squads (2 Elysian Veterans with 2 Plasmaguns is actually 1pt less than a single Space Marine Veteran with a Plasmagun!... and the former have natural deep strike and dont need an 195pts character to be able to).

 

 

And please dont even mention Multimeltas... with their current point costs they are just next to useless!

As the damage reroll only equals an average of one additional wound (in comparison to a non rerollable D6 damage) the lascannon is just superior with not only having four times the range but also being 2pts cheaper!

That said, Gravcannons easily beat both of them in a TAC list...

Edited September 28, 2017 by highwind

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, he's a tad OP for his points :P

Just his ability is the cost of 3 Drop Pods, so you get a solid Chapter Master + 3 Pods + the ability to SFTS due to successorship.

[Nusquam]

I've said it before but with Gman and Magnus existing, and guard bane-chassis being severely undercosted and now nids looking to be fantastic(they deserve to be good ha), I'll take every ounce of power I can take.

 

Mentioned this in a different thread, but I emailed FW and they confirmed his Ambush consolidates the units he takes with him in a single drop instead of 4 separate ones and they do arrive all at the same time. Very powerful. Not quite Gman reroll all the things and solo knights powerful but definitely strong.

 

I crunched the numbers on plasma stern with him and an LT; expensive but the guaranteed full-power alpha strike will maim LR+s. Two full plasma stern have a good chance of dunking a baneblade in one volley. Which, to be fair, is more points than the baneblade itself. Add in a relic banner and you have a firebase that retaliates as it gets shot.

[Lucumon]

I ran a LI list at an RTT recently and won all three games to take 3rd of 24... this guy is a gem most havent figured out.  I even had a Ynarri player marvel at the shenanigans he allows.

 

My games were against:

1st - IG brigade with a stormsword

2nd - alpha legion spearhead detachment of 3 leviathans with some titan killer tank

3rd - Ynarri and Alaitoc

 

The inane amount of fire power is awesome.. until you realize that IG can be way more points efficient.  Your advantage is being able to be more precise.

 

The single drop thing is huge... I thought it was 4 separate ones.

[MajorNese]

Sounds interesting. What did you drop with him?

 

I'm currently trying to find out how to roll him this edition. Lots of options for S4, but heavier stuff seems a problem...

[Lucumon]

3 devastator squads of 10 dude-bros each.... with the to-hit re-roll and the small penalty for moving heavy weapons, what's the problem?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

3 devastator squads of 10 dude-bros each.... with the to-hit re-roll and the small penalty for moving heavy weapons, what's the problem?

Post your list!

[Lucumon]

I posted it under a different thread.  I was hoping to get some feedback on how to make the list better and/or get ideas on things I need to watch out for.