The value of Tactical Marines and Scouts for the Raven Guard

[Filius]

Dear Ravens,

 

this is a bit a general 8th Edition Tactic Question, but as I currently mostly think in Raven Guard Dimension and as there is a fluff-dimension in this question also I post it here …

 

… if I do understand the 8th Edition Rules correctly all Units can secure objectives by now. And there are serveral detachments, that don't force you to take troops. So I wonder … why should I (as a maybe-to-be Raven Guard Player) choose a Tactical Squad or Scouts at all?

 

Possible pros and cons I found myself or I can think of …

 

• 8th Edition seems to be still shooty, so having 10 or 6 Marines with Bolter + Special and Heavy Weapons + Rhino or Razorback might be a quite cost effective Choice to get "more" Dakka in the Army …
• … but would be a Squad of Devastors + Razorback be better Choice then?
• … and they are not so fluffy for Raven Guards, right?
• … and Rhinos got more expensive an now cost nearly the same as half a Squad.
• Scouts with Sniper Rifels seem to be pretty strong + Deployment Rules for them are pretty cool + they are very fluffy for Raven Guard.
• Fluffy Assualt Squads are not one of the Top-Close-Combat Units in the Game and fluffy Vanguard Veterans (which are better) still are expensive and eat up still precious Elites Slots. So having either Scouts or Tactical Marines might be an easy way to get Support for the "not too good" Assault Marines or the "never enough of them" Vanguard Veterans.
• All Jump Packed Units (and Terminators) can deploy later … buuut … if I understood the rules correctly, you can deploy only half of your Units later. So you need something to deploy in the beginning, and Tactical Squads and Scouts are the cheapest thing you can get.
• The Brigade Detachment grants incredible 9 Command Point, but has 6 Troops as mandatory Choice. Tactical Squads and Scouts are probably the cheapest way to get those slots filled and get the 9 CP. Although I am totally not sure how much of an advantage 9 CP are.

 

I wonder wether these reasonings are correct or false and wether there are some other pros and cons I didn't think of …

 

As always a heartly "Thank you very much!" in advance for all help!

[Colonel Bindoff]

I've only played one quick game so far, only picked up rules yesterday. However it seems like CPs can turn a phase and game if well used, particularly with the new morale checks.

 

It occurs that having a load of CPs to play with fits the Raven Guard way of 'cerebral' warfare quite well. You need troops to pull off the higher CP detachments, so go for it!

 

I also think that existing perceptions of what are 'top tier' choices will need huge alterations. So far I've found the balance to be pretty good, and this will mean my VVs and Assault Marines can play more often!

[Filius]

Ah right! I didn't thought about that, but having many and esp. more CPs  than you Opponent is of course super-raven-guardish … !  Thanks!

 

Your obersavtion about the "top tier" is also interesting. I do read a bit within the Wolves Forum and they are trying pretty much everthing from the Codex, but move within the Armylist there's a tendency away from Troop Choices … interesting Times!

 

Thanks again!

[Claws and Effect]

The value of Tactical Squads and Scouts for the Raven Guard is in their versatility.

 

You can equip them for nearly any battlefield role and find a use for them.

 

Assault Squads are probably best started on the table, woth Vanguard coming in from reserve.

[Jacques Corbin]

I plan to pepper my deployment zone with combat squads of Sniper Scouts. Just dare any enemy Characters to step out of their deployment zone. I think my Land Speeder Storms may no longer be fielded in force, given the drastic point increase. Still, it will make a nice mobile bunker for where there is no cover available. I may even make a couple shotgun squads with cloaks for Concealed Positions to camp objectives midfield. I already have plenty of Bolter squads. Now with the extra attack on the Scout Sergeant, is it worth it to take a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword if that squad is likely to get charged?

 

For Tactical Squads, no more Drop Pod for me. I will go 5 with special and Combi in a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback. Might even make it 10 and split off a Combat Squad with a Heavy Weapon to camp somewhere. I am thinking Plasma Cannons in this edition.

 

Also, with templates and scatter gone, I am bringing the artillery (Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds) for sure to soften up the enemy for my jump pack ninjas.

[Mr. Poe]

I think I'll be filling all the troop choice requirements with scouts in this edition. Similar to what Corbin said, shore up my deployment zone with scout squads, holding any near by objectives while providing a soft fire base for the rest of the army.

 

I think it's a fluffy and strong tactic. I do fear that the LSS will be left at home a lot now. It's too expensive and doesn't pack enough fire power. Maybe if it still had some version of the Jamming Beacon rule (was that the name?) it would still be worth it, but know I don't know. Shame, I love land speeders.

[Filius]

Thanks everyone. So I think I'll keep my plans, start an Army List and build some Tactical Marines, Scouts (and Terminators) in the next Weeks (Months). Sweet. I would have been sad, if Tactical Squads and Scouts were (more or less) out of the Game.

[SyNidus]

Tactical squads are fantastic. I've been running 4x 5 man squads with special and combi-weapons in a couple of stormravens.

 

The real boost that our tacticals got is the ability to rapid fire their bolters and then charge. That being said, i've always advocated a "it's how you use it that matters" approach, so you need to remember some basic tactics when using them.

 

Keep them together in close support of each other. Whatever your choice of deployment options, keep them together unless necessary.

 

The same can be said for scouts. In fact, big bolter scout squads have gotten a buff. Infiltrate 20 of those boys up close (preferably on a flank), and you've got a decent threat which your opponent has to deal with early on.

[Filius]

Tactical squads are fantastic. I've been running 4x 5 man squads with special and combi-weapons in a couple of stormravens.

 

*snip*

 

"In a couple of Stormravens"? I have to admit that I never really like the Rhinos (and just bought two TRVs, to avoid their Minis) and always planned for a Stormraven or a Stormwolf, but I always considered these beast extremely expensive. May I ask how many of the you field? Or does "a couple" just mean two?

 

On the other Hand … now that I think of it … they are pretty much a heav weapons plattform, fast and have lots of wounds … hmmm …

[Race Bannon]

Oh, you HAVE to get those TRVs on camera and share them.

[Mr. Poe]

This ^^

 

Please. 

[Filius]

Hehe, I will, I will.

 

If you don't want to wait that long … there's a Raven Guard TRV over at Westgamer (found it via Pinterest), including a really posh Racing Stripe!

 

Edit: Typo.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Filius

[GreyCrow]

Well the value of Tactical Squads for the Raven Guard in this edition is totally like you mentionned !

 

It is a shooty edition primarily, with a buffed CC, but heavy weapons being so powerful now, CC is efficient more as a finisher than a main source of damage.

Unless you can bring tons of models but we're really not a horde army :P

 

In this edition, the Tactical Squad has been designed as the true mainstay of every marine army, with every other units acting as support for the Tactical Squad It seems. For 2 reasons :

1) They're relatively cheap

2) They have the capability to take a Heavy Weapon without sacrifing their mobility

3) They're very resilient points wise, being able to cheaply provide enough armour and the ability to negate the impact of D2+ weapons Through wasted damage.

4) They can take cover, and a 5 Man combat squad is quite easy to hide from LOS

5) Due to the combat squad mechanics, you can afford to run MSU with the ability to seriously delay the positioning of your support units.

 

It's a very points efficient unit that packs a lot of punch! Heavy weapons are so strong now with the damage mechanic that even one is a very serious proposition in a small squad!

 

Let's look at scouts now :

1) They can take the Missile Launcher, which is a pretty good Heavy weapon

2) Their deployment options are effectively limited vs 7th, although They can get a charge Turn 1 If you manage to go first and deploy last, which is pretty cool

3) Camo cloaks make them very on/off, superb in cover, horrible in any other situation with the new AP mechanic

4) Sniper rifles are good but not reliable due to the effect happening on a 6+

 

So, Scouts can work as the mainstay of a Raven Guard army, simply due to the ability to take a (limited selection of) Heavy weapon(S).

But due to their frailty, I really see them as a support units for Tactical Squads as the mainstay now

[Filius]

Well the value of Tactical Squads for the Raven Guard in this edition is totally like you mentionned !

 

It is a shooty edition primarily, with a buffed CC, but heavy weapons being so powerful now, CC is efficient more as a finisher than a main source of damage.

Unless you can bring tons of models but we're really not a horde army

 

In this edition, the Tactical Squad has been designed as the true mainstay of every marine army, with every other units acting as support for the Tactical Squad It seems. For 2 reasons :

1) They're relatively cheap

2) They have the capability to take a Heavy Weapon without sacrifing their mobility

3) They're very resilient points wise, being able to cheaply provide enough armour and the ability to negate the impact of D2+ weapons Through wasted damage.

4) They can take cover, and a 5 Man combat squad is quite easy to hide from LOS

5) Due to the combat squad mechanics, you can afford to run MSU with the ability to seriously delay the positioning of your support units.

 

It's a very points efficient unit that packs a lot of punch! Heavy weapons are so strong now with the damage mechanic that even one is a very serious proposition in a small squad!

 

Let's look at scouts now :

1) They can take the Missile Launcher, which is a pretty good Heavy weapon

2) Their deployment options are effectively limited vs 7th, although They can get a charge Turn 1 If you manage to go first and deploy last, which is pretty cool

3) Camo cloaks make them very on/off, superb in cover, horrible in any other situation with the new AP mechanic

4) Sniper rifles are good but not reliable due to the effect happening on a 6+

 

So, Scouts can work as the mainstay of a Raven Guard army, simply due to the ability to take a (limited selection of) Heavy weapon(S).

But due to their frailty, I really see them as a support units for Tactical Squads as the mainstay now

 

That sound great! Especially as it is another reason not to go with the Wolves: Grey Hunters don't have a Heavy Weapon Choice in 8th and Scouts are still an Elite Slot, which I plan to fill with Vanguard Veterans, of course. And Terminators.

 

Edit: Finished Sentence …

Edited June 20, 2017 by Filius

[GreyCrow]

Wait what ? Scouts are not Troops no more ? Did my eyes deceive me ? :O

[Filius]

Wait what ? Scouts are not Troops no more ? Did my eyes deceive me ?

 

Don't worry, only for the Space Wolves. And they haven't been during the last Editions … if I am not gravely mistaken.

[GreyCrow]

Oh right! I entirely trust you there, I did not read the Space Wolves' index ^^

 

I do love our furry friends as much as any loyal citizen of the Imperium and certainly much more than I do the zealot Grey Knights, but their playstyle is so anathema to what I naturally gravitate towards that I didn't bother ^^

 

Their Wolf Scouts are indeed much better and indeed much Elite!

 

Grey Hunters with no Heavy Weapons will probably tend to gravitate towards a brute force approach, losing models as they move up but unleashing stronger burst damage when they are close.

 

Currently; with our vanilla 8th ed Marines, I believe it's more about sustained efficiency throughout 5 turns.

[Filius]

Yes … the Grey Hunters have a free Chainsword. For every one of them. (Which is a kind of funny as the Extra-Chainsword used to be the defining difference between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. That and BS 4 and the Option to out upto 15 Blood Claws in one Pack.) Plus the additional Grey Hunter Pack Leader or/and Wolf Guard Pack Leader can also be mostly equipped for Close Combat. They used to have the Acute Senses (like all Wolves) and Counter Attack Special Rules, but lost both. Or to put it short: Blood Claws = Close Combat Troops, Grey Hunters = Shooting Troops. The 8th Edition seems to have weakend this distinction.

 

Be it as it may be … I still have a weak spot for the furry side of the Imperium, but that is another topic for another day.

[Jacques Corbin]

Anybody else upset that Sniper Rifles are S4 instead of wounding on a 4+? So much for popping MCs...

[Claws and Effect]

Mildly.

 

I'm more upset that Nihilus is gone, and probably not coming back.

 

Mostly because I went to a great deal of effort to model a Vet Sarge with it.

[Race Bannon]

I'm also mildly disappointed. But I never counted on snipers :P

[Nusquam]

Anybody else upset that Sniper Rifles are S4 instead of wounding on a 4+? So much for popping MCs...

 

Yeah I'm not a fan of that. Really should have been 4+(6+ against vehicles) and 1 Mortal wound on a 6+ against non vehicles instead of normal damage + mortal. Maybe that's one thing we can bring up on the new supposed balancing forum.

 

As for tacs I'm definitely feeling their value in being able to sit 10 bodies in cover on an objective. That 2+ has been doing very well.

[Kua]

Vehicle and monsters are mainly distinguished by:

– High T

– Many W

This way, S4/D1 is already a penalty against them.

The more W and Sv the enemy has, the more snipers have to rely on 6s.

So… I tend to agree that a constant to-wound value would be more appropriate, but I’m not yet sure.