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DW power level a bit too high?


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#1
Irbis

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So, I made DW army to try 8th vs IG list. We agreed on 1000 points each. The problem? IG list was PL 48. Mine was PL 61 wacko.png

 

I can kind of see why this is happening (PL is supposed to be average of all upgrades unit can take) but that suggests while going light on upgrades is the way to go if you use points, to get some extra bodies, then if you use PL and want to be even remotely competitive you need to load up every upgrade you can. Like quad frag cannons and/or combi-meltas. To simply compensate for 20% force slash compared to using points (my list would need to lose either vanguard vets or dreadnought plus razorback to get down to IG level, leaving me with pretty much only one sad unit above 5 mandatory picks from battalion detachment).

 

Thoughts?



#2
shandwen

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Yeah... the PL for DW is high. But it's also easily abused. Imagine a squad with thunder hammers and combi meltas on every guy. The point cost would be huge, bUT PL doesn't care.

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#3
Irbis

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The cost would be huge but it's still 3+ T4 guy, with few if any assault delivery mechanisms that also don't cost arm and leg. So, yeah, I think PL is kind of broken in DW case unless you have whole separate shelf of minis built to abuse it...



#4
MeltaRange

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As shandwen said, it's because of the crazy options that DW has available to Kill Teams particularly.  I can make a Kill Team that costs 95 points for 9 power.  I can also make a Kill Team that costs 334 points for 9 power.

 

I don't mean this to come off the wrong way, but to the people who are already bringing up power level "balance" - it just seems like you are searching for things to complain about.  It's meant for narrative games.  My group plays those most often, and everyone is a reasonable person so it works out just fine.  Yes the system can be abused.  But if you are strictly WYSIWYG and you play the game for fun/friends, it's not a problem.

 

If you are a ultra-competitive person or are attending a tourney or something then you should expect to use Points.  



#5
SnakeChisler

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With Battlescribe updated and I'm guessing other army builder apps there's no reason to not use points

 

GW are coming up with there own

 

The power levels are only loosely matched up and its and quick dirty way to put a list together

 

ex - Scouts are power level 6 cost 55 points Tactical marines cost 65 and are Power level 5 and a Razorback with twin assault cannon costing 102 is power level 5 as well. so a max of 10 bolter shots for PL 5 or a max of 12 Assault cannon shots and 4 storm bolter shots with 3+ save and 10 wounds at T7 for PL 5?

 

How close is it ? lets say 100 PL is equal to 2000 points

 

A normal deathwatch 2000 list that you pay points for with vets + Razorbacks + bikes + & a couple of characters in will typically be 10%+ over in the Power level front coming in at 110 - 120

 

So if you play power levels your probably running round the 1800 point mark



#6
Irbis

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I don't mean this to come off the wrong way, but to the people who are already bringing up power level "balance" - it just seems like you are searching for things to complain about.  It's meant for narrative games.  My group plays those most often, and everyone is a reasonable person so it works out just fine.  Yes the system can be abused.  But if you are strictly WYSIWYG and you play the game for fun/friends, it's not a problem.

 

If you are a ultra-competitive person or are attending a tourney or something then you should expect to use Points.  

 

Except if you read my post at all the reason I say PL is unbalanced is because fluffy, sparingly taken upgrades like single frag and 1-2 power swords leave you massively disadvantaged in narrative games! Not a problem? How? ermm.gif

 

You need to 'abuse' power levels with DW or you will be absolutely crippled with everyone else easily bringing in 20+% points more than you do even if both sides have same, light, fluffy loadouts, simply because nonsense DW loadouts you'd never see in fluff drag the average used to calculate PL way too much upward. So, you either build second DW army to have a shade of chance in narrative or ask opponent for PL deductions if you go low on wargear because PL costs in DW case are fundamentally broken. If you don't see why this is a big issue for anyone who wants to field fluffy army (being complete opposite of 'abuse'), I am sorry, I can't help you facepalm.png



#7
MeltaRange

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I don't mean this to come off the wrong way, but to the people who are already bringing up power level "balance" - it just seems like you are searching for things to complain about.  It's meant for narrative games.  My group plays those most often, and everyone is a reasonable person so it works out just fine.  Yes the system can be abused.  But if you are strictly WYSIWYG and you play the game for fun/friends, it's not a problem.

 

If you are a ultra-competitive person or are attending a tourney or something then you should expect to use Points.  

 

Except if you read my post at all the reason I say PL is unbalanced is because fluffy, sparingly taken upgrades like single frag and 1-2 power swords leave you massively disadvantaged in narrative games! Not a problem? How? ermm.gif

 

 

It's not a problem because it's a narrative game.  I could take a Captain and 5 units of guys with Boltguns only, on foot, for 50 Power and the narrative could be that they are a scouting vanguard who needs to try and stem off a much better equipped army of Ynarri so that that the bigger force can be scrambled to meet it head on.

 

Or I could take a Watch Master and 2 kitted out Kill Teams in 2 Corvus Blackstars for 50 Power and now the narrative is that the Watch Master and his elite Bodyguard are trying to strike into the heart of the enemy army to eliminate it's warlord Purgatus style.

 

I do understand your point.  The fact each model in the unit can be kitted out to crazy levels drags the average up for Power Level. My counterpoint is simply that if you're worried about being competitive in a Narrative-style battle using Power, you're doing it wrong.



#8
Vel'Cona

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The Power Level system in general is easily abused, and unfortunately that means some armies (Orks, IG) are going to make out like a fat ratling in a ration truck while elite armies that can stack powerful upgrades will be shafted.  For the most part, it's a fun system for its intended purpose: to attempt some level of balance in a "throw down, laugh it up" type of game.  Unfortunately, if either player has an inkling of competitive performance then it only takes a little push to break that system, which I think GW would be quick to admit if pressed.

 

That being said, I think the worst turnouts for DW are the Terminators and Bikers.  Veterans aren't too bad as long as you stay purely power armour and avoid making actual Kill Teams (sad, but true).


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