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Elysians in 8th


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#1
Galron

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A bit presumptive but many things are out there at this point that we can talk about it without Vultures, Venators, and Vendettas(I just noticed after almost ten years of playing Elysians all of our vehicles start with V).

Things we can safely assume:

Missile launchers will be our heaviest weapon.

Mortars and heavy bolters will be there.

Deep strike on basic troops and maybe our Valkyries as well

 

 

Not sure aside from deep strike what our special rules will be. Likely something to mitigate Battleshock.

 

Now assuming the list stays relatively intact, what are people's plans?

 

After playing a fairly large multiplayer game(using my alphas) and seeing what different armies can do now I have kinda gotten a direction for my Elysians with the assumptions above. Our flyers are going to get their butts kicked. That -1 modifier for hard to hit is nothing for MEQ armies with a zillion shots, that and flamers can hit us like its cool. I wiped Drago and 2 paladins off the board in one round of shooting with rapid firing combi-plasmas taking the -1 to hit to fire both weapons and still taking them down. 

 

Aside from special rules we can actually almost play our Elysians now. Troops, all the valks we want, all the weapon squads we want, storm troopers, vet squads, etc.  Your aircraft are going to want to keep moving. You will take a pounding if you stay in the same area. Also means you will only get two shots at a specific target before moving out of range. I haven't noticed a rule yet that says flyers don't get cover so if you reach a board edge and have to fly off, just switch to hover but try and position yourself behind cover.

 

 

Heavy weapon teams

Heavy bolters and mortars are dirt cheap. Missiles a bit more. This matters as they are cheap slot fillers on a brigade while still being stupidly effective. Missile launchers are one of the best utility weapons in the game now causing d6 damage and at the same time doing d6 shots with frags. 3-18 shots. Very worth it. Mortars are the cheapest heavy weapon choice we have, I think at something like 27 points for three. It will put some wounds on something. Might not kill more than a marine, maybe two if lucky but 2 would pay for the whole squad and they can do it without coming into LOS. Heavy Bolters are just good general dakka without breaking the bank. I expect to see a bunch of them and autocannons in normal IG lists. After witnessing a monolith die to lasguns, mass dakka isn't just about overwhelming terminators anymore. Plus a heavy bolter being 5 strength with a -1 to armor saves, means most normal non heavy vehicles will be wounded on a 5+. I know heavy weapons squads weren't used often in the last few editions, but now I think with their relatively low cost, will be invaluable. In my army I plan on at least 2 missile, 2 mortar, and a heavy bolter team in most normal sized lists.

 

But what about Vendettas? I see vendettas approaching land raider costs. I haven't seen a data sheet or heard anyone talk about having seen them but a barebones Valk is 130, a twinlinked lascannon is I think 50 if I remember right. I have heard they are pointing out vehicles in the FW books very conservatively so we are safely looking at upwards of 300 points for a vendetta. It will be the big boy in our armies. Really hoping they up the BS to account for its super high cost.

 

Valkyries- Our basic bird. I think its one of the best transports in the game allowing a nasty meltagun range alpha strike on enemy vehicles. It hasn't been FAQ'd yet to say it doesn't. Maybe GW threw us a bone for once intentionally. So what do we put in here? I am thinking either vet, command or special weapon squads and more likely a mix of the latter two. A pair of command squads and a SWS all with meltas. Its borderline broken with 9 meltaguns. Yeah they will die stupidly quick to the opponent's other forces, but very little, outside of broken necron vehicles who will ignore half of the damage, will survive. I haven't run the numbers but a quick run through the numbers 6 will put 21 wounds on most vehicles. Better if you skip the SWS and add a commander with orders.

 

Sentinels?-

Really not sure what to do with these guys right now. I haven't used them or seen them used. I know my old deep strike and use heavy flamers thing isn't going to work anymore for obvious reasons. Since we do have non-scatter DS(or will) then perhaps multi-meltas might come back in vogue. Yeah its a one shot weapon which is never good for BS4+ but a pair of them have a 50/50 chance to hit and you can DS into their short range. Until we get DS I am not sure what to do with them.

 

Vets- Another good group of riders for a Valkyrie with their BS 3+ and 3 special weapons and heavy flamer(assuming we keep it in the new list). Quite pricy though, especially vs Storm Troopers who get a lot more bang for the buck.

 

Storm troopers- The bread and butter troop of normal IG this edition. Its an autoinclude for most people. They deepstrike on their own, carry 2-4 special weapons, 4+ save, have their own officer and 4 special weapon command squads. Kind of hard not to like these guys. They have been covered extensively elsewhere though and their use doesn't change here. Unless of course FW uses common sense and makes them elites in an elysian list which is what I think they will do.

 

Troops- Your normal cool looking guys which was a good chunk of why we built these armies. I don't think anything will change in their usage. I am tempted to put a plasma pistol on the sergeant and use a special weapon of some sort, but keep them cheap and plentiful. I doubt we will see FW return them to a platoon style formation, I hope they don't actually since I like the new/old system of guard organization where each squad is a slot.

 

 


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#2
Beaky Brigade

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It will be interesting to see what they do. I made the mistake of trying to start a D-99 force at the end of 7th edition, and I only have the parts for around 30-35 guys, so pragmatically I'll probably have to make them a veteran support force again. I'll also be using missile launchers, 2 drop sentinels, a Valk and a Valk skytalon... Mostly because that's what I have!

 

It's nice that you can plausibly run them as IG if you don't feel like using the Elysian list, and there should be less worries with reserves in this edition.

 

Looking at the death korps death riders preview today on the community site it looks like they will keep the army lists thematic, if not exactly working how they did before. The death korps have rules to reduce the effects of failed morale tests, and they get an extra attack in close combat if models are killed.

 

Perhaps we'll see the return of the 'iron discipline' rule in some other form.

 

I don't think we'll see storm troopers/ scions, mainly because they've made them so distinct now with their own officers, the ease of adding them to the army any way, and because the contents don't show them


Edited by Beaky Brigade, 19 June 2017 - 06:52 PM.

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#3
Galron

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They have been an iconic portion of the Elysians since day one. Doesn't the index ToC just say Elysian list? I doubt they would reprint the entire datafax for them since they are already in the main IG index(also forces you to buy that one to use them). Most likely there will be a paragraph in the main rules or a box somewhere that says Militarium Tempestus is a troops/elite choice in an Elysian list.

 

Kind of in your boat, I have a few of the official heavy and special weapons squads, 4 regular squads, a pair of vultures, vendetta, some valks and a pair of Venators. I also have around 100 of the Mantic marines and a platoon of their heavy weapons.

 

Edit: I read the lists after I saw you posted it. Still not too worried. They will probably be in that additional rules section much like how they will have Vultures and vendettas listed in the appropriate slots but the stats elsewhere in the book. Now that I have gotten to look a little closer at the list, I see Snipers are their own squad now. That is promising. I might have to look into picking a bunch of them up.


Edited by Galron, 19 June 2017 - 07:03 PM.

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#4
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The snipers are probably going to be really good just due to the new edition. I'll have to pick some up as well :) Really wish forgeworld still produced the Tauros assault vehicle :( 

 

Krash


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#5
Beaky Brigade

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They have been an iconic portion of the Elysians since day one. Doesn't the index ToC just say Elysian list? I doubt they would reprint the entire datafax for them since they are already in the main IG index(also forces you to buy that one to use them). Most likely there will be a paragraph in the main rules or a box somewhere that says Militarium Tempestus is a troops/elite choice in an Elysian list.

 

Kind of in your boat, I have a few of the official heavy and special weapons squads, 4 regular squads, a pair of vultures, vendetta, some valks and a pair of Venators. I also have around 100 of the Mantic marines and a platoon of their heavy weapons.

 

Edit: I read the lists after I saw you posted it. Still not too worried. They will probably be in that additional rules section much like how they will have Vultures and vendettas listed in the appropriate slots but the stats elsewhere in the book. Now that I have gotten to look a little closer at the list, I see Snipers are their own squad now. That is promising. I might have to look into picking a bunch of them up.

 

Yeah I would expect that they'll want you to buy Index Imperium 2 to use it properly. I find it a bit odd that there is a distinct entry for an Elysian Lord commissar, but no regular commissar, while DKoK get a Commissar but no lord. Not in panic mode, just wondering.

 

I appreciate the Elysian's first campaign book had them drop in with storm troopers leading the way, it's just the stormie fluff has changed a lot and I'm not sure the breastplate wearing scion guys fit in next to them. If FW ever do more than maintain the Elysian range in the future it would be nice to see the Elysian version of stormies, in the same way DKoK have grenadiers. Realistically though I just hope the range is not too decimated by phasing out of kits.

 

If snipers have the option for 60" range like the previous edition they could be nasty. Mantic marines look like a reasonable substitute.


Edited by Beaky Brigade, 19 June 2017 - 07:19 PM.


#6
Galron

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60" range? I remember 36" for as long as I have played. That said in recent editions, the only snipers I have played were marine scouts.

 

I agree on the massive aesthetic differences. I have the newer models as well as the older ones and I cant say I am a fan of the new ones. I will probably just field my old ones in limited numbers to minimize mixing and matching. Having actual Elysian storm troopers would be flippin awesome, just not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Hoping they haven't completely forgotten the line. Kind of confused why they got rid of the plasma special weapons squad as those were our only way to get slightly larger numbers of plasma troops without buying the cheaper weapons pack.

 

I never used the smaller tauros vehicle. Only the larger one with the lascannons. I expect they will be in the 115 point range this edition.


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#7
Beaky Brigade

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60" range? I remember 36" for as long as I have played. That said in recent editions, the only snipers I have played were marine scouts.

 

I agree on the massive aesthetic differences. I have the newer models as well as the older ones and I cant say I am a fan of the new ones. I will probably just field my old ones in limited numbers to minimize mixing and matching. Having actual Elysian storm troopers would be flippin awesome, just not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. Hoping they haven't completely forgotten the line. Kind of confused why they got rid of the plasma special weapons squad as those were our only way to get slightly larger numbers of plasma troops without buying the cheaper weapons pack.

 

I never used the smaller tauros vehicle. Only the larger one with the lascannons. I expect they will be in the 115 point range this edition.

 

In the D-99 List at least you could upgrade guardsmen to spotters, so in a 6 man sniper team you'd have 3 snipers, and 3 spotters, and you get the extra range if the spotter did not shoot anything.


Edited by Beaky Brigade, 19 June 2017 - 07:56 PM.


#8
Galron

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Oh wow, that was pretty impressive.


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#9
Withershadow

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You could technically stick 3 command Squads for a total of 12 melta guns into a Valkyrie. Meltas are outrageously expensive, of course, so not sure if suicide guys at 18 points a model are worth it! Bullgryns may be fun. Acolytes with storm bolters for dakka is another possibility and they have innate rerolls depending on target.

#10
Galron

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I was thinking use as taking out centerpiece units. Yeah I wouldnt put 12 of them in a suicide unit like that. 8 at most. Be useful for a death or glory against something big of the opponent's that will cause hell for the rest of the army and seeing as how much you need to be able to quickly kill vehicles before they repair themselves. I know in my game there were at least 4 vehicles fixing themselves or getting fixed by untargetable mechanics, mine and the grey knight's rhinos were old and busted by comparison.

 

On that note, from memory, anyone remember if the Elysians got access to engiseers and if they can use their abilities while embarked. Be cool to have a crew chief fixing the planes as they fly.


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#11
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I'd consider sticking an Officer of the Fleet in there too, for a chance to deal automatic mortal wounds and give the Valkyrie rerolls of 1s to hit (which effectively is reroll 1s and 2s when moving).

#12
Beaky Brigade

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What will the underslung combi krak grenade launcher be like? If they make it unlimited ammo like combi in 8th and you can fire in addition to the lasgun it might be quite nifty.

#13
Galron

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I forget, did the 2nd ed Taros list even allow Officers of the Fleet? There was one of the advisors I thought was weird we weren't allowed to have. But yes, if we get the option, an officer or two of the fleet(Combat Controllers) will be an auto include for me. As for the ones or twos, lost what you mean. Only a rolled 1 is rerolled since its done pre-modifiers like plasma 1s. But having essentially slightly better chance to hit is worth it even if they do have to be within 18". Speaking of that, how does one get a fleet officer that close to the enemy?

 

This was something I was thinking about last edition but never put into action, a Sniper Command squad. Since I think we are going to see a resurgence of heavy weapon squads in the back field, how about 4 snipers with one being a medic in between a couple Heavy weapon squads to bring dudes back. Along these lines I am actually thinking with that 9" no DS bubble, you can probably spread your weapons, command and sniper teams out fairly well to prevent anyone from appearing in your back field. That's a pretty nice big bubble. Yeah it will evaporate when shooty termies appear in front of you but they will have already landed.

 

It didn't come up in my game, does intercept even exist this edition? If so, does anything in the IG have it?

 

Underslung Krak grenade launcher is nice, I don't know what I would put it on though unless squaddies get it. I was thinking plasma pistols on sgts(provided its an option) since they are so cheap and lost the "gets hot" rule unless its an overcharge.

 

How many flyers are people thinking about using? They have lost quite a bit of "UMPH" since even flamers can possibly bring one down and I see the board getting crowded quickly since we cant just drive them off the board edge anymore for them to come back. I personally was thinking 5. Two Valks with vets, two Vultures with punishers, and either a Lightning or a Vendetta with a Flamer SWS team.


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#14
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Having started a D-99 list as well, I don't know what to expect when the book comes out.  Seeing the info about DKOK and their special rule, one could be cautiously optimistic about Elysians rules. The product line is showing it age, and wasn't as successful as DKOK line up. Mainly because their rules and support in the game. If done right they could be big seller for FW.  I wish they would bring back the insert for back of the Valerie. 

 

Flyers are going to be a integral part of 8th, you would think airborne force would be supported by GW/FW



#15
Galron

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I am of two minds on flyers in 8th. On one hand with how they nerfed them, we might see more casual players using them as there should be less stigma about using multiples of them. On the other hand, with how they nerfed them we will see less competitive people using them since they aren't nigh indestructible gunships and assault transports anymore. But I concur, there is a lot FW could do with the Elysian line and I hope with the increased sales from the book release and hopefully accompanying interest in Elysians combined with the drop in HH sales they will think about fixing holes in the line and maybe some new stuff. I don't know about age of the line, I am putting together some new models from them and they are as crisp as the ones I put together years ago. In fact I am really hoping someone bites on my Tau and noise marines on sale on BT so I can order a bunch more weapons teams and another troop squad.


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#16
Galron

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One thing I was made aware of that I think we are going to see a lot of that we haven't seen much of in the last two editions is orks. Even more rare that will be super common on the field will be Storm boyz. Don't even have to deep strike any more. Place at the edge of their deployment zone, move 12", advance 3"(on average) and charge(with a reroll for fails). They can be in your lines easy in turn one with 30 guys(22-24 after their roll to see who lives from the charge and not counting overwatch). 240 points base plus whatever they give the nob.

 

I have friends here planning on having 75 stormboyz in a standard list. So how do we counter these super fast melee units? I am quite sure we will have our units with deepstrike but that still leaves the other half on the table. I don't know about you guys but I still plan on at least 5 heavy weapon teams, a pair of venators, and a command team with snipers. I think though I have finally found a use for SWS squads. Arm them with 3 flamers and place them at the forefront of where the enemy will be charging from. Fairly cheap at 45 points, 3d6 hits on overwatch plus another 6 lasgun shots. Gotta love being bait. Just ensure that no one else is within what 3" so they wont be piled into. Odds are really good they will die, if not to the orks, they probably will to battleshock. Now the remnants of the ork unit is standing in the open waiting for your heavy weapons to finish them, and yes that is best case scenario if they make the charge. So maybe 8 or so die from the flamers and if you are lucky one from lasguns, 6 or 7 from charging losses.

 

then again, command squads do show their silliness by being 48 points for 4 dudes with flamers, yeah, their BS goes to waste but you get 4d6 overwatch and more importantly since Elysians are expensive dollar wise, you are only using 4 guys even if you have to convert all four to carry flamers. 


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#17
Beaky Brigade

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Anyone seen the list yet? I've seen their orders and deep strike rules but not the units. It also seems the vendetta is 12 capacity and punisher vulture is 40 shots

#18
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I'd like to see the elysian list too!!

 

Krash


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#19
Galron

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Havent seen anything other than they all have deep strike. I am getting the digital this afternoon but I am impatient, someone got the digital copy already. I figured they were going to keep the weapons on the Vulture intact thus giving it 40 frikkin shots :) I plan on running a pair of them. They have different orders than standard guard? Do they cost more per guy? Are Vendettas really costing more than a land raider? Spill the beans.


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#20
Beaky Brigade

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Not a lot of discussion elsewhere about the Elysians and still waiting for my book, but one titbit I have picked up is there is a mistake with their plasma gun profile, they do 3 damage on overcharge instead of 2. Most likely a future FAQ/ Errata but perhaps the Elysian pattern is just better msn-wink.gif

 

I saw the Elysian orders page this morning:

 

Order 1: Hold the line! Ignore Casualties from shooting or fight phase for morale checks this turn  (until their next move phase)

2: First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! As normal

3: Bring it down! As normal

4: Move and fire! Looks like an earlier version of the AM 'Forwards for the Emperor!' Order. Any infantry in the squad count as having assault weapons until the end of the turn. I think it's the same as FFTE The unit can shoot this phase even if it advanced in it's movement phase. Would need to know more about 8th to be sure.

5: Get back in the fight! As normal

6: Move! Move! Move! As normal

7: Take Aim!  As normal

 

So the only difference is no fix bayonets, which makes sense as they don't have them, they could have just renamed it Close Quarter Battle Drill or something and saved the bother of remembering 1 different order.

 

No sign of aux grenade launcher in the weapons list :(, maybe it's on individual unit profiles?


Edited by Beaky Brigade, 23 June 2017 - 07:03 PM.


#21
Galron

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Been reading on it. Alot of changes from the last list.

No longer do we get to put Sniper Rifles in HQ squads. Snipers are their own elite choice but have better BS than everyone else.

 

Storm Troopers are not in the list, at all. There is a note at the front, "There are a number of Astra Militarum datasheets that can be used by the Elysian Drop Troops – presented in the box on the left. Those that do replace the <REGIMENT> keyword on their datasheet in all instances with ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS. If an Astra Militarum unit does not appear on the list to the left, it cannot be used by models with the ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS keyword, and so cannot have the ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS Faction keyword" To me that backs up an argument I had in another thread that if it isnt in the list it cannot be taken in the detachment.

 

Vultures are the bomb, not that you would bring a bomb when you can bring twin punishers for 40 shots and hitting targets without fly you are +1 to hit smile.png

 

Vendettas are still beasts, very expensive though.

 

Venators if they move more than 10" get a 5++

 

We get officers of the fleet- obvious but useful.

 

Not having storm troopers is going to require me to pick up more troops :/

 

Lost the special Valk transport drop rule and they are not dedicated transports so you will be taking a flyer wing if you want a mix of aircraft.

 

Every infantry squad can take a breaching charge :) They are nasty.

I like the list overall. Its a fairly small list but has really cool options although has the same PITA format for factoring points as the standard indexes. grrr. Now to start back on painting.


Edited by Galron, 23 June 2017 - 09:54 PM.

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#22
HenricusTyranicus

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Been reading on it. Alot of changes from the last list.

No longer do we get to put Sniper Rifles in HQ squads. Snipers are their own elite choice but have better BS than everyone else.

 

Storm Troopers are not in the list, at all. There is a note at the front, "There are a number of Astra Militarum datasheets that can be used by the Elysian Drop Troops – presented in the box on the left. Those that do replace the <REGIMENT> keyword on their datasheet in all instances with ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS. If an Astra Militarum unit does not appear on the list to the left, it cannot be used by models with the ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS keyword, and so cannot have the ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS Faction keyword" To me that backs up an argument I had in another thread that if it isnt in the list it cannot be taken in the detachment.

 

Vultures are the bomb, not that you would bring a bomb when you can bring twin punishers for 40 shots and hitting targets without fly you are +1 to hit smile.png

 

Vendettas are still beasts, very expensive though.

 

Venators if they move more than 10" get a 5++

 

We get officers of the fleet- obvious but useful.

 

Not having storm troopers is going to require me to pick up more troops :/

 

Lost the special Valk transport drop rule and they are not dedicated transports so you will be taking a flyer wing if you want a mix of aircraft.

You can't give them the faction keyword Elysian. That will matter later. Nothing says you can't take them in the same detachment, they just can't take orders from Elysian officers


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#23
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So are Tauros actually useful now?

 

Krash


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#24
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4: Move and fire! Looks like an earlier version of the AM 'Forwards for the Emperor!' Order. Any infantry in the squad count as having assault weapons until the end of the turn. I think it's the same as FFTE The unit can shoot this phase even if it advanced in it's movement phase. Would need to know more about 8th to be sure.

 

 

So the only difference is no fix bayonets, which makes sense as they don't have them, they could have just renamed it Close Quarter Battle Drill or something and saved the bother of remembering 1 different order.

 

I think there is a big difference. Move and Fire works on turns you've deepstruck in, allowing your missile launchers to fire at full BS from turn one. It makes showing up with a ton of Heavy Weapons from the sky and brutally alpha striking totally viable.


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#25
Tyr13

Tyr13

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Been reading on it. Alot of changes from the last list.

No longer do we get to put Sniper Rifles in HQ squads. Snipers are their own elite choice but have better BS than everyone else.

 

Storm Troopers are not in the list, at all. There is a note at the front, "There are a number of Astra Militarum datasheets that can be used by the Elysian Drop Troops – presented in the box on the left. Those that do replace the <REGIMENT> keyword on their datasheet in all instances with ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS. If an Astra Militarum unit does not appear on the list to the left, it cannot be used by models with the ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS keyword, and so cannot have the ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS Faction keyword" To me that backs up an argument I had in another thread that if it isnt in the list it cannot be taken in the detachment.

 

Vultures are the bomb, not that you would bring a bomb when you can bring twin punishers for 40 shots and hitting targets without fly you are +1 to hit smile.png

 

Vendettas are still beasts, very expensive though.

 

Venators if they move more than 10" get a 5++

 

We get officers of the fleet- obvious but useful.

 

Not having storm troopers is going to require me to pick up more troops :/

 

Lost the special Valk transport drop rule and they are not dedicated transports so you will be taking a flyer wing if you want a mix of aircraft.

You can't give them the faction keyword Elysian. That will matter later. Nothing says you can't take them in the same detachment, they just can't take orders from Elysian officers

 

 

What he said. And its the same in the general IG list - storm troopers always have the Militarum Tempestus faction keyword, they dont get any other regiment keywords.






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