Unit of the Week 8th: Assault Squads

[Acebaur]

So a new edition and new books across the board means a whole lot we need to discuss. Especially considering the very drastic changes to the game(most of which I think are great). So in light of that we are kicking off the UotW this year with 3 initial topics to get the ball rolling!

 

This topic will cover a unit long overlooked by most everyone except for Raven Guard, the Assault Squad. Melee has changed drastically with less attacks from many units but the ability to charge nearly whenever you want. Gone are the days of deep striking a unit only to have to wait a full turn while your enemy flees from them, or shoots them to pieces. Now combat drops are far more deadly and cinematic. Chainswords finally have a special rule that makes them great and the squads ability to take plasma pistols puts them in a prime position to do serious damage both in and out of combat. 

 

So how will you run your assault squads in 8th? Are flamers still a good choice for them? Does the decrease in attacks across the board help or hurt a unit like this? With no more scatter and choice of when to come in will deep strike be the optimal method of deployment?

 

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

People poo poo on flamers but don't realize their efficiency counted in percentages or damage per point is far higher than people realize, since they see "IT DEALS LESS WOUNDS PER AVERAGE THAN PLASMA GUNS IT'S :cuss" from that green and red chart and immediately dismiss them.

 

I'm still going to run the standard 5 men, 2 flamers, 5 jump packs. Although I really, really want to put an Eviscerator on for cool factor, and giving sergeant wargear this edition is very worthwhile, so I still have to figure out the final loadout.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've never been very fond of Assault Squads, but I will say this from a theory point of view.  If you're deep striking them with the intent to hope for a charge, plasma pistols are probably better because of the longer range.  If you're deploying them normally and simply speeding up the board, or deep strike some distance from the enemy with the intent of closing in and charging on subsequent turns, I'd take the flamers.

[The Unseen]

People poo poo on flamers but don't realize their efficiency counted in percentages or damage per point is far higher than people realize, since they see "IT DEALS LESS WOUNDS PER AVERAGE THAN PLASMA GUNS IT'S :cuss" from that green and red chart and immediately dismiss them.

Damage per point spent doesn't mean as much when the opportunity costs are so much higher tyberos.

 

If your going to run assault marines, sure, give them flamers, they only have plasma pistols as their competition, so the opportunity cost is 2 fewer plasma pistols for 2 flamers, and the flamers do better vs the only units assault marines can do damage to, low armor infantry.

 

When you can bring any of the specials and your limited more by the cost of the units carrying those specials, the few extra points for a better weapon pale in comparison to bringing an entire other unit to make up that opportunity cost.

 

Flamers don't kill enough chaff to make them worth giving up something that does its job almost as well, along with a bunch of other targets that the flamer doesn't even scratch, it doesn't matter that its a little cheaper.

[Firepower]

Flamers are ideal choices for Assault Squads because they're the sort of unit most likely to get into proper range to exploit them.  I think the loss of attacks hurts the squad overall, but it's arguably balanced out by assaulting from Deep Strike.  Previously you'd take a face full of shooting for your trouble before getting in any swings, so odds are the extra attacks would be roughly the same total as you're likely to get now that you can get into the fray faster and safer.

 

That said, I still feel like they're chiefly a harassment unit.  If you want to stomp something into the mud, their Big Brother Vanguards are where to start the search.

 

As units that chiefly harass rather than wipe out enemies, I'd argue that plasma pistols aren't necessarily a great idea.  That extra bit of oomph is tempting, but I try to keep harassment/distraction units cheap so I can put real power into the heavy hitters.   On the upside, you can look for decent damage output from them without worrying about the new Gets Hot, but if you look to pistols only for their Overcharge mode of fire you are risking a small unit's tiny pile of wounds, for the cost of more points to deploy them.  And then there's the whole issue of Gets Hot now biting you in the bum because of negative hit modifiers on the squad, not just natural 1's.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Firepower

[Acebaur]

Keep in mind that Plasma pistols are now 2 points cheaper than a flamer, so a squad with 3 plasma pistols is only 3 points more expensive than the same squad with 2 flamers. Not a bad price for a unit and they can fire those pistols in your own phase in CC which is a nice bonus.

 

As for the gets hot, remember that only happens if you supercharge them now, otherwise they are safe to fire on normal.

[Claws and Effect]

How about 2 flamers and a plasma pistol on the sarge?

[Jacques Corbin]

The application of Assault Squads has certainly changed. No more wall of death (since Overwatch is just like a normal shooting attack except needing 6s to hit), and having to arrive from reserve via jump pack outside of 9" seems to nerf flamers a bit. So, while they are not ideal to drop in, flamers are good for counter assault, because your opponent may think it better to try for a 9" charge rather than risk a d6 hits per flamer Overwatch for trying to charge from 8" or less.

 

The Plasma Pistol is only 7 points now. And 3 per squad can be nasty. You can unload right after dropping in, and if a fight seems hopeless, you can shoot your pistol in melee in overcharged mode.

 

Now, what nobody has seen fit to mention, is that combat shields are 5++ instead of 6++. I would dare say that makes them almost worth it. Still won't save you from a Mortal Wound though. Also with the changes to AP in 8th, what totally negates a 3+ save (-4AP) anymore? Is a 1 in 3 chance to save worth it?

 

Most of all, I am eager to see what Chapter Tactics will come with a proper codex.

[Myrkul]

I feel like flamers on JP assault marines is kind of a waste, or at least if ypur intent is to drop them in. Since you have to deep strike 9 inches from enemy models and flamers have only a 8 inch range, your not able to fire the first turn on the table. To me in this role plasma has he better benefit.

 

Now if your actually using JP marines but not deep striking or using foot marines in a transport I can see flamers being viable. Frankly Ive seen flamers absolutely wreck IC, monsters etc just in the shear numbers of hits you potentially tossong on a target. I almost feel theyre better in a songle target capacity vs horde control.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I pick jumppack assault marines with a flamer because, as firepower stated, their mobility allows them to actually get value out of them. A crusader/tac squad will most likely have issues getting in range, either getting kited or have to move into unfavorable positions to even get them off. And as they are not the cheap "i'd rather have this than a bolter" and plasma is such a tempting alternative on PA marines, i'd rather put my flamers on mobile platforms. To that i add my old reliable jumppack chaplain with a powerfist and a fist on the sergeant. That leaves me with a squad that can thin hordes before charges and overcome most nasties with quality cc and a large, reliable number of attacks. However, jack of all trades master of none will certainly apply, plus that are some heavy points.

[Acebaur]

I think deepstriking an assault squad with some plasma pistols is a great "deal with me" unit that is cheap and effective.

 

Likewise running flamers and starting them on the board is a great harassment unit and good for clearing light troops.

[Jacques Corbin]

Also, if you read the Falling Back section in the rules, Jump Pack units have the Fly keyword, so they can fall back and shoot. Usually, when melee is joined, I let the flamers eat the first unsaved wounds, but with this change, I will be saving them in case I want to Fall Back and hose my opponent with 2d6 automatic hits.

 

With Plasma Pistols, is it worth it to shoot, shoot in the fight, then fall back and shoot in the next shooting phase?

[old git]

Deep striking them and having to be 9" away invalidates flamers initially. Also, they haven't lost attacks in real terms. Shooting their pistols in the shooting phase and then getting 2 attacks thanks to the chainsword rule means 3 attacks overall, same as before.

[Acebaur]

Also, if you read the Falling Back section in the rules, Jump Pack units have the Fly keyword, so they can fall back and shoot. Usually, when melee is joined, I let the flamers eat the first unsaved wounds, but with this change, I will be saving them in case I want to Fall Back and hose my opponent with 2d6 automatic hits.

 

With Plasma Pistols, is it worth it to shoot, shoot in the fight, then fall back and shoot in the next shooting phase?

 

 

Keep in mind that while they can shoot while engaged in combat, they don't get to shoot twice. You shoot in your shooting phase and then that's it(except for overwatch) so if it's your turn and you aren't engaged you can shoot, charge, and then that's it. There is not shooting during the fight phase. 

[Marshal Wolfhart]

This is true for pistols but flamers wouldn't get to shoot in assault, so falling back and shooting is a sound tactics especially if you can bait the opposition into another round of overwatch.

[Ebon Hand]

Great observation about having fly and falling back to shoot! That definitely improves the case for flamers.

 

However, I'd rather my opponent be falling back from me than vice versa as I want to stop as much shooting from them as possible. In that sense the plasma is better for the range and not causing so many casualties that you fail a charge.

 

In the shooting phase in cc, it's like having 2 more power weapon hits, and the high strength combined with the way you can split your fire means you can drop in, put a couple wounds on something to finish off a vehicle/monster and then charge an infantry unit to make use of those chainswords.

[Xenith]

People poo poo on flamers but don't realize their efficiency counted in percentages or damage per point is far higher than people realize, since they see "IT DEALS LESS WOUNDS PER AVERAGE THAN PLASMA GUNS IT'S :cuss" from that green and red chart and immediately dismiss them.

 

Erm. Isnt 'it deals less wounds on average than a plasma gun' specifically factoring in "percentages" and "damage per point"

 

In this case, with the 3+ to wound, plasma pistols and flamers do almost identical damage per point to MEQ withthe flamer edging the pistol out slightly in absolute damage. Flamer is weaker v T5, while plasma is the same. Both get stronger v T3. 

 

What you choose depends on whether you want your unit to excel at killing weak troops, or be a jack of all trades and be able to knock a wound off a rhino if needed. 

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 Isnt 'it deals less wounds on average than a plasma gun' specifically factoring in "percentages" and "damage per point"

 

No, because all the comparison shows is average wounds dealt to specific targets. Doesn't take any consideration for things like weapon range, weapon cost, or if a weapon is X% more effective for its points despite dealing < 0.25 less wounds.

 

Referring to this:

 

http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/WeaponChart_Specials.png

 

People see the numbers and think "oh, plasma is better than melta even against high wounds" which isn't necessarily true, because you're not going to roll perfectly average over the course of one turn, or one game. All it takes is a full D6 shot and the melta has beaten the plasma in results. Same thing for flamers. People see "what, only 1.56 wounds it sucks" but they're not seeing the whole picture. Overwatch, auto-hits, D6 vs. 1-2, etc.

 

Mathhammer is a useful tool but it only gives averages. That's it. Knowing the max and min performance and hedging bets is equally important in games of chance.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Race Bannon]

TRW = :wub: in that Astartes kinda way.

[Kua]

Agree on flamer and overwatch (though for deepstriking assault marines there is still the range problem), but as for melta vs. plasma, you only have the average to deal with when planing for a battle. Relying on an extraordinarily lucky damage roll is a very bad strategy.

As rules are now, plasma and melta should change their points cost at least or there is little reason to take the latter one.

[Tactical Badger]

Are Eviscerators worth taking? They look cool, but 1 or 2 (if on the sergeant) attacks at most does not seem worth the cost..

 

If you were going to take them, would you add them to an Assault squad on foot (and in a transport) or to Jump pack assault marines?

[Kua]

I wouldn’t take them, I suppose.

[Acebaur]

Not worth it IMO, 20+ points on a model with only 1 or 2 attacks? AND you take a minus 1 to hit? No thanks.

[Race Bannon]

Rule of cool may not help with Eviscerators ...

[Tactical Badger]

Sad! Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Still going to build a squad on foot with two Eviscerators, but leave them out in games so there's space for characters in the transport.. and hope GW adjust the points in the future.