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Emperor's Children/Noise Marine Tactica


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#76
Panzer

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Leth I was looking at your list and it looks really fun.  I just wish I had some more Daemon Princes to try and run it.  This is my 2k list that I plan to be using for a pretty tough game against one of my friends.  Any thoughts on it fellow EC players?

1x Chaos Lord - Chainaxe + Plasma Pistol

1x Cultists 9 man squad w/ CCW - Used as a bubble around my leviathan dread to keep him safe from DS.  

2x bare 5 man noise marine squads w/ Sonic weapons in 2 Multi-Melta rhinos

3x Sonic Dreadnoughts - 1 Fist + Dual Sonic Blasters

1x Hellforged Leviathan - Dual Butcher Cannon Arrays

1x Hellforged Rapier Crew - C-Beam Cannon

1x Hellforged Scorpius

2x Hellblade w/ Lascannons.

Looks like an extremely low model count for a 2k game. So far from what I've seen is that you need at least some mass in lists otherwise you'll just get overwhelmed.


Then again...I'd like to see how far you could go with such a list, so don't mind me. :D


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#77
Guardbuddy

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Leth I was looking at your list and it looks really fun.  I just wish I had some more Daemon Princes to try and run it.  This is my 2k list that I plan to be using for a pretty tough game against one of my friends.  Any thoughts on it fellow EC players?

1x Chaos Lord - Chainaxe + Plasma Pistol

1x Cultists 9 man squad w/ CCW - Used as a bubble around my leviathan dread to keep him safe from DS.  

2x bare 5 man noise marine squads w/ Sonic weapons in 2 Multi-Melta rhinos

3x Sonic Dreadnoughts - 1 Fist + Dual Sonic Blasters

1x Hellforged Leviathan - Dual Butcher Cannon Arrays

1x Hellforged Rapier Crew - C-Beam Cannon

1x Hellforged Scorpius

2x Hellblade w/ Lascannons.

Looks like an extremely low model count for a 2k game. So far from what I've seen is that you need at least some mass in lists otherwise you'll just get overwhelmed.


Then again...I'd like to see how far you could go with such a list, so don't mind me. biggrin.png

 

Yeahhh the fact that it is so elite makes me worried!  I want to squeeze in more Noise Marines but at the same time I am absolutely terrified of some of his models.  My rationale behind it was the sonic dreadnoughts could be both an anti-vehicle and anti-infantry weapon.  Maaaaybe  it will work I am not sure.  if they go down I am in deep trouble.  I'll let you guys know how it goes!  More than likely I feel like your predictions might be correct and I will need more mass.  Time to find out!  happy.png



#78
Brother Aiwass

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C-beam is cool, but I'd drop it and one sonic dread to fill those rhinos. Don't have the indexes with me atm, but you should still have spare points I believe.

 

If so, drop the blades as well and take (or convert, or count-as) 2 xiphon interceptors. That would leave you with plenty AT and better BS for those lascannons.

 

Would be nice if you share battle results :)

 

Cheers!


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#79
leth

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Anyone know of any good alternative options for the Blastmaster Arms?  I am trying to find something third party and it is a pain haha.  Thinking the Helbrute plasma cannon makes a solid base, then have something coming out of it.....problem is that it doesnt give off the blast master feel haha

 

Also if anyone has a sonic dread and wants to swap one of the arms for the opposite one let me know!! That way we can have two of the same arm for consistencys sake. 


Edited by leth, 20 July 2017 - 03:24 PM.


#80
Arufel87

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Try spellcrow. The guns look great in my opinion. I'm building some now so check the Carnal Throng blog in the next few days if you want to see what they look like.

#81
Guardbuddy

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C-beam is cool, but I'd drop it and one sonic dread to fill those rhinos. Don't have the indexes with me atm, but you should still have spare points I believe.

 

If so, drop the blades as well and take (or convert, or count-as) 2 xiphon interceptors. That would leave you with plenty AT and better BS for those lascannons.

 

Would be nice if you share battle results smile.png

 

Cheers!

Alrighty!  So I got a chance to try parts of the army out!  It's been hard to fit in the regular game of 40k but I can make one analysis.  Noise Marines are still an absolute must.  The Sonic Dreadnoughts' 2D6 shots really just isnt enough to thin out any sort of horde.  The twin blastmaster also seemed...a bit underwhelming.  I am not sure if it was just extremely poor rolling on my part (and believe me there was looots of that!) but the damage output seemed rather...mediocre?  I was using them as a gunline unit which may be incorrect.  I may try walking them up the board while the rest of my army moves so that it can also benefit from being in CC.  We will see!



#82
leth

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So, from a competitive standpoint I just cant justify running anything but alpha legion tactics on a ranged Noise marine army. After play testing going first in assault is nothing compared to the -1 to hit boost to survivability.  Especially with all the rerolls out there.  Faced guilliman BS and it would have really helped in the long run.

 

In addition almost everything that I would actually want to take is Slannesh restricted, not EC restricted so again, another point in the alpha legion tactics hat.



#83
Panzer

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Well that much is obvious. Tho what has that to do with Emperor's Children tactics? That's about Noise Marines which almost every Legion can have, not about Emperor's Children. ^^

You take Emperor's Children for the fluff, Relic or Stratagem. Or Lucius. There's literally no other reason unless you actually care about Noise Marines with ObSec.

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#84
DreamIsCollapsing

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Atm Noise marine are not Troops, even in a EC army.

 

It's true the Blissgiver is kinda meh.. A ranged weapon to use against charac who can't be targeted by ranged weapon.. You'll use it only in melea if you manage to sneak it face to face ennemy charac. Kinda fluff with an Exalted Champ i guess

 

The great plus of an EC is the polyvalence, they got buff for mele and ranged wich is totally fluff. I'm kinda sad our sonic weapon aren't better than any other legion, but i prefer fluff buff rather than just EC = Sonic weapon, IW = Cult of Destruction etc...

 

If you want a true dakka dakka chaos army with NM, don't take E.C. 

If you want to be fear in shooting and fight phase, and you got a soft spot for an army betray by her obsession with perfection, take EC. 

 

By the way ; Did someone got a picture of a Blissgiver ? Or have seen conversion/bits that coud correspond to a blissgiver ? I didnt find much info on it. 


Edited by DreamIsCollapsing, 07 August 2017 - 12:51 PM.

I looked down the sights of my rifle, my target looked back. It's eyes were all the eyes I'd ever loved. They promised everything I could ever want. Love, comfort, safety. An end to this nightmare. I felt my will draining out of me, entranced by those eyes.

 

Profil pic by Qsy draw a lot


#85
Panzer

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One could argue that Noise Marines are still troop choices for EC just as Lords etc. can still take mounts. The Index has a seperate Datasheet for EC Noise Marines as troops. It's not in the Codex anymore. FAQ says if the Codex lacks a Datasheet that's in the Index, use the one from the Index.

Tho they really should bring out an FAQ for the Cult troops and HQ on mounts.

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#86
Castigator

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One could argue that Noise Marines are still troop choices for EC just as Lords etc. can still take mounts. The Index has a seperate Datasheet for EC Noise Marines as troops. It's not in the Codex anymore. FAQ says if the Codex lacks a Datasheet that's in the Index, use the one from the Index.

Tho they really should bring out an FAQ for the Cult troops and HQ on mounts.

 Are you sure that's in the FAQ? I thought it was in the snowflake Community post?

Which FAQ is it in?


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#87
leth

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Well I originally started this thread around the EC builds focusing on Noise marines and tactics that can be used to make those army builds function on the tabletop. However I have updated the title to more match the ideas I am covering.

 

One of the problems I have encountered in tournament after tournament is that whomever goes first usually wins.  With the typical number of drops that my armies have I cant reliably go first/get the +1 to go first.  As a result I need a tactic that allows my units to survive rather than focus on something that doesn't come up often(being better in assault). 

 

Secondly as they have said if the datasheet is not included in the book then you can still take it using updated prices.  There is a datasheet for troop noise marines with specific keywords.  As long as you make a list that meets those keywords you can still take them as troops. 

 

As to the community FAQ thing they posted it on their warhammer website. Hopefully the next rulebook errata will cover it. 


Edited by leth, 07 August 2017 - 02:58 PM.


#88
DreamIsCollapsing

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One could argue that Noise Marines are still troop choices for EC just as Lords etc. can still take mounts. The Index has a seperate Datasheet for EC Noise Marines as troops. It's not in the Codex anymore. FAQ says if the Codex lacks a Datasheet that's in the Index, use the one from the Index.

Tho they really should bring out an FAQ for the Cult troops and HQ on mounts.

 

As i said in another topic : If you wish to make that shenanigan it means you take ALL the datasheet, so you got NM for 16 points per model (not 15 as in the Codex), with 28 points blastmaster and D3 Assault Doom Siren. 

 

But i don't feel bad about it. The Cult units as troop sloot was one of the earliest teaser for 8th edition. They have been for quite a long time and no one saw them as problematic entry which need a nerf (like stormtalon). So either it's in the codex, or it's FAQ Asap. 

 

Personnaly i think we are more likely to loose Havoc & Standard SMC for WE/EC than loose our Berzerker/NM as troop. 


I looked down the sights of my rifle, my target looked back. It's eyes were all the eyes I'd ever loved. They promised everything I could ever want. Love, comfort, safety. An end to this nightmare. I felt my will draining out of me, entranced by those eyes.

 

Profil pic by Qsy draw a lot


#89
Panzer

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One could argue that Noise Marines are still troop choices for EC just as Lords etc. can still take mounts. The Index has a seperate Datasheet for EC Noise Marines as troops. It's not in the Codex anymore. FAQ says if the Codex lacks a Datasheet that's in the Index, use the one from the Index.

Tho they really should bring out an FAQ for the Cult troops and HQ on mounts.

 
As i said in another topic : If you wish to make that shenanigan it means you take ALL the datasheet, so you got NM for 16 points per model (not 15 as in the Codex), with 28 points blastmaster and D3 Assault Doom Siren. 
 
But i don't feel bad about it. The Cult units as troop sloot was one of the earliest teaser for 8th edition. They have been for quite a long time and no one saw them as problematic entry which need a nerf (like stormtalon). So either it's in the codex, or it's FAQ Asap. 
 
Personnaly i think we are more likely to loose Havoc & Standard SMC for WE/EC than loose our Berzerker/NM as troop.

No you don't. The point costs aren't tied to the Datasheet. That's the whole reason why GW put them on a seperate page, so they can update the point costs without having to touch the Datasheets and vice versa.
The Doomsiren is more interesting tho since then you would have two versions of them. Generally the weapon profiles on the Datasheets are just for reference for their most commonly used weapons tho so I'd say you use the updated profile here as well.

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#90
DraneceusRex

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Do I need to pull out the quote again? Don't make me do it!

I have a feeling they'll be FAQing this day 1 of the release to be absolutely clear. Berzerkers are selling AoS like hotcakes. No way I see them taking cult troops away from us.

#91
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They need to as well. 

The Space Marine Codex has been a right mess with their Dreads (amongst other things), so this crap about using the Index if they missed something is simply not good enough.

Hopefully, we have simply missed the page that allows EC to take Noise Marines as troops and it is still in there. If it isn't I'm calling foul on the whole sorry (and expensive) mess. 


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#92
Panzer

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Yeah it's very annoying. I'd prefer it if they'd just say that only what's in the recent Codex listed is useable (plus whatever unit+datasheet they might release afterwards). I don't even know why they decided not to include the Index Datasheets. It clearly has nothing to do with existing models since they don't follow that logic with Primaris Marines either.

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#93
DreamIsCollapsing

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Do I need to pull out the quote again? Don't make me do it!

I have a feeling they'll be FAQing this day 1 of the release to be absolutely clear. Berzerkers are selling AoS like hotcakes. No way I see them taking cult troops away from us.

 

I'm sorry but it still feel wrong. 

GW is release some rules for a very precise purpose. Like the understrenght unit : a rule to use a unit even if you don't have enought model to fulfill the minimum size squad. Some people wanted to twist this rule beyound her initial purpose, by adding multiple undersize squad to get full Command Point. 

 

Same goes about the rule to use the Index datasheet for a model not referenced in the codex : Noise Marine ARE in the codex. You can use your Noise Marine models so this rules don't apply. It's purpose is to allow ancient model oop to be used, doesnt work when you models are in the codex (Noise marine are not in the right place, but they still there). 

 

Imho it's simple : 

- Either Noise Marine still are troops sloot for EC. Either it's written in a non-leaked codex page or forgotten by GW and soon to be FAQ

- Either GW don't want us to us NM as troops. And as soon as they will ear some player use the "no codex datasheet" rules to play same as troop : they will say No in incoming FAQ

 

So let's wait the codex, maybe it's juste written in it. If not wait for the FAQ to see if it's on purpose or just an oversight. 


I looked down the sights of my rifle, my target looked back. It's eyes were all the eyes I'd ever loved. They promised everything I could ever want. Love, comfort, safety. An end to this nightmare. I felt my will draining out of me, entranced by those eyes.

 

Profil pic by Qsy draw a lot


#94
Sersi

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Can Noise Marines and Berserkers still be taken as troops by their legions?
 
Winter SEO:
 
They are an elite slot now. The legion thing does not change that.
 

 

 

and...

Can World Eaters and Emperor's Children still take cult units as troops?
 
Forge The Narrative:
 
They can't.  But... the detachments in the main rule book make this less of a hurdle.

 

 

 
but...
 
So you mention cult marines as troops. So can World Eaters and Emperor’s Children still take their cult marines as troops?
 
Frontline Gaming:
 
Cult Legions can still take them as troops.

 

 

 
 
I don't know really. Reecius said that you can take them as troops, but didn't say the codex allows it.  While the other two said there nothing in the codex that allows it.  So I have to assume that the Chaos Index is what allows them to be troops by using the entry in the Index.  This is probably going to take an FAQ for clarity.

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#95
Panzer

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Do I need to pull out the quote again? Don't make me do it!

I have a feeling they'll be FAQing this day 1 of the release to be absolutely clear. Berzerkers are selling AoS like hotcakes. No way I see them taking cult troops away from us.

 

I'm sorry but it still feel wrong. 

GW is release some rules for a very precise purpose. Like the understrenght unit : a rule to use a unit even if you don't have enought model to fulfill the minimum size squad. Some people wanted to twist this rule beyound her initial purpose, by adding multiple undersize squad to get full Command Point. 

 

Same goes about the rule to use the Index datasheet for a model not referenced in the codex : Noise Marine ARE in the codex. You can use your Noise Marine models so this rules don't apply. It's purpose is to allow ancient model oop to be used, doesnt work when you models are in the codex (Noise marine are not in the right place, but they still there). 

 

Imho it's simple : 

- Either Noise Marine still are troops sloot for EC. Either it's written in a non-leaked codex page or forgotten by GW and soon to be FAQ

- Either GW don't want us to us NM as troops. And as soon as they will ear some player use the "no codex datasheet" rules to play same as troop : they will say No in incoming FAQ

 

So let's wait the codex, maybe it's juste written in it. If not wait for the FAQ to see if it's on purpose or just an oversight. 

 

Sorry but that's bull- :cuss 

We don't know for what purpose GW left out those Datasheets and you are only guessing. The Grand Tournament Events Pack pdf they uploaded even talks about using Index datasheets that not appear in the Codex and give as example the Chaplain on Bike.

 

For all rules purposes Noise Marines from EC in the troop section are a seperate Datasheet in the Index that doesn't appear in the Codex and thus the Index Datasheet is still viable until they tell us otherwise. The only thing you might argue is that they didn't bother to write those things in their FAQ yet and only told us outside of the FAQ in several articles so far. Period.


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#96
Plaguecaster

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Maybe they just left out an actual emperors children noise marine data slate since it was pretty pointless even having it in the index since the Emperor's children rules from there (exactly like WE, DG and TS) specifically said any noise marines in a EC force count as troops instead of Elites
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#97
Bloody Legionnaire

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World Eaters player here. I believe it is worth noting Pg. 45 of the Chaos Index lists the "World Eaters Army Rules" and has the language stating that World Eaters Berzerkers battlefield roles have changed and that they are troops for a World Eaters Army. The same sort of language is used for the Emperor's Children under the "Emperor's Children Army Rules" page... 

Now I don't want to jump to conclusions and say we're definitely getting our own book but unless the new Codex has sections stipulating Army rules for World Eaters and Emperor's Children the Chaos index continues to be just as valid. Which is pretty much pointless to say considering GW has already said the Indexes will continue to remain valid even after Codexes have been released. The whole discussion over point values is moot as well since GW has already ruled on how updated points work with units in the Indexes. Rubrics and Plague Marines will definitely be troops in their own respected Codex.. our cult units will be the same. 



#98
DreamIsCollapsing

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We don't know for what purpose GW left out those Datasheets and you are only guessing

 

 

Sorry but that's wrong. I'm not guessing anything. I just say that NM unavailable as troop is either a mistake, or intended by GW

 

In both case we will know with the codex/FAQ, meaningwhile both option are plausible :

1) GW don't want EC to use NM as troop it won't be in the codex, and they will make a FAQ saying you can't use the index datasheet because their is a NM datasheet in the codex. 

2) GW want use to use NM as troop, it will be in the codex. If not it will be in a FAQ

 

My guess is Option 2 is more likely as we got our codex a short time after the Index, so no reason to put the Troop NM option in the index and cancel it just after. But still before spending more in FW Kakophony i will wait


I looked down the sights of my rifle, my target looked back. It's eyes were all the eyes I'd ever loved. They promised everything I could ever want. Love, comfort, safety. An end to this nightmare. I felt my will draining out of me, entranced by those eyes.

 

Profil pic by Qsy draw a lot


#99
Panzer

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We don't know for what purpose GW left out those Datasheets and you are only guessing

 

 

Sorry but that's wrong. I'm not guessing anything. I just say that NM unavailable as troop is either a mistake, or intended by GW

 

In both case we will know with the codex/FAQ, meaningwhile both option are plausible :

1) GW don't want EC to use NM as troop it won't be in the codex, and they will make a FAQ saying you can't use the index datasheet because their is a NM datasheet in the codex. 

2) GW want use to use NM as troop, it will be in the codex. If not it will be in a FAQ

 

My guess is Option 2 is more likely as we got our codex a short time after the Index, so no reason to put the Troop NM option in the index and cancel it just after. But still before spending more in FW Kakophony i will wait

 

3) GW expects us to do as they told us and use the Index Datasheet.

 

Yes you are guessing.


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#100
leth

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They said that if there is an updated datasheet/rules you use that. If there is no updated datasheet you use the index datasheet with the updated points from the codex. Say it clearly in the FAQ on the codex article. 

 

https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-2/

 

Datasheets are independent of points costs. and weapon stats.