8th - "Pure" Grey Knights or with Imperial friends?

[requizen]

So I was eyeing up Grey Knights and I was wondering what people thought about running them solo. Obviously they're expensive and will be really low model count, but is their hitting power enough to make up for that fact? Or would I be better off investing in some Imperial allies, maybe some Guard artillery/blobs for Objectives or Devastators for sitting in the backfield?

 

Do you think pure GK can work without body support?

[Race Bannon]

Sure they can! Faith protects and all that jazz. Though I think they can be made stronger with allies.

[Everon]

This edition, a pure gk army is much more powerful then last edition. I do think it can stand on its own alone with a lot better odds than 7th edition, but imperium friends would make it better.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Due to how GW have designed 8th, you're punished heavily for not going pure. 

 

Every single GK benefit doesn't transfer to allies. 

 

I'd also say that with hidden wargear taxes and detachment requirements, its wise to stick with GK specific units. Even some of the generic units we inherit aren't especially good compared to our own versions.

 

Time will tell if we need more board presence in 8th. I feel like our horde clearance ability is fine, storm bolter and heavy psycannon does that job quite well. Raven are also amazing in this edition, they emit immense amounts of firepower and can carry slower units into the fight quickly.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think I'm the opposite here.

 

I don't think anyone is currently punished for not going 'pure'.

 

There are quite a few options for overall buffs (RG, Inquisitors buffing the Imperium as a whole) and with the Imperium Keyword we have the easiest ability by far, from any edition of the game, to cherry pick the very best units we want.

 

Only limited to a single Detachment, but want TWC backed by Centurion with a Deep Striking Deathwatch Frag Cannon alpha?

 

You can do all that within a single detachment.

 

And get just as many Command Points for doing so as the guy that stays 'pure'.

 

Really, the only tangible benefit of going 'pure' are the various 6" bubbles you can get from most HQs/Characters.

 

And you can just let RG do that for you if you want.

[skarn]

I like talking an inquisitor in a valk with 6 units of 1 acolyte. Thats 275pts for 8 units that start on the board, meaning all my gk stuff can deepstrike. The inq himself is actually pretty decent with 24 ablative wounds, a full power smite, another bonus power and ld buffs to all the nearby gk.

[requizen]

Thanks for the responses!

 

I'm less worried about buffing each other and more worried with complimenting weaknesses with strengths. The obvious being GK's low model count, but also their lack of long range and anti-tank/monster fire (though it looks like Land Raiders and Stormravens can make up for that a bit). 

 

Guard seem to be able to compliment them well, with enough bodies to hold down objectives and shooting from either artillery or just HWTs to pin down the enemies with the Knights get into range to get the fight on. 

 

On the other hand I think a solo Grey Knight army will look much cooler on the tabletop/display board. Conflicting.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm less worried about buffing each other and more worried with complimenting weaknesses with strengths. The obvious being GK's low model count, but also their lack of long range and anti-tank/monster fire (though it looks like Land Raiders and Stormravens can make up for that a bit). 

 

Being low model count comes with being GK. It's not as crippling as in 7th IMO, Strikes are one of the big winners of 8th edition changes. I'm routinely looking at taking 20-30 of them in my current planned lists. I need to actually built another 15. 

 

GK Venerable and regular GK Dreads are fantastic long range fire support, and no longer compete for Heavy Support slots with Dreadknights. Twin las and missile launcher kills a lot of big stuff quite reliably, and they're decently priced for their resilience and 'Smite' they can chuck out every turn. Ravens are amazing gunships now. I personally don't rate LR's, I still think they're overcosted junk, but they're viable in the sense they can't be one-shot anymore. 

Guard seem to be able to compliment them well, with enough bodies to hold down objectives and shooting from either artillery or just HWTs to pin down the enemies with the Knights get into range to get the fight on. 

 

Guard blobbing up on objectives is a great way to win games, and they're cheap as well. The amount of cheap heavy weapons and Order buffs you can throw out is nice too. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Interceptors are one of the big winners of 8th edition

 

Fixed that for you!  ;)

 

For the 3 point difference, there is really no reason to ever use Strikes.  As you said in my Dread thread, the shunt move is massive.  And Interceptors are the only unit of ours that still retains it.

[LuisMars]

I think an Astropath (15 points w/ laspistol) can be a good friend for us. Keep it close to someone that can cast Purge Soul and cast Terrifying Visions before casting Purge Soul. Or even Gaze of the Emperor can be usefull to deal extra mortal wounds.

[the jeske]

Due to how GW have designed 8th, you're punished heavily for not going pure. 

 

Every single GK benefit doesn't transfer to allies. 

 

I'd also say that with hidden wargear taxes and detachment requirements, its wise to stick with GK specific units. Even some of the generic units we inherit aren't especially good compared to our own versions.

 

Time will tell if we need more board presence in 8th. I feel like our horde clearance ability is fine, storm bolter and heavy psycannon does that job quite well. Raven are also amazing in this edition, they emit immense amounts of firepower and can carry slower units into the fight quickly.

Ok, but do all benefits have to spill over. Lets say you take 3 cheaper old marines rifleman. what buffs that GK have are essential for them to work. Or an objective blob/alfa strike push back of 40-50 IG, does it become in efficient because it doesn't get to use some of the IG rules? If anything 8th, as far as imperials goes, enhances the need for going multi "faction" [where faction= IG/chad marines/different old marines/etc].

Due to how GW have designed 8th, you're punished heavily for not going pure. 

 

Every single GK benefit doesn't transfer to allies. 

 

I'd also say that with hidden wargear taxes and detachment requirements, its wise to stick with GK specific units. Even some of the generic units we inherit aren't especially good compared to our own versions.

 

Time will tell if we need more board presence in 8th. I feel like our horde clearance ability is fine, storm bolter and heavy psycannon does that job quite well. Raven are also amazing in this edition, they emit immense amounts of firepower and can carry slower units into the fight quickly.

Ok, but do all benefits have to spill over. Lets say you take 3 cheaper old marines rifleman. what buffs that GK have are essential for them to work. Or an objective blob/alfa strike push back of 40-50 IG, does it become in efficient because it doesn't get to use some of the IG rules? If anything 8th, as far as imperials goes, enhances the need for going multi "faction" [where faction= IG/chad marines/different old marines/etc].

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Fixed that for you!  

 

For the 3 point difference, there is really no reason to ever use Strikes.  As you said in my Dread thread, the shunt move is massive.  And Interceptors are the only unit of ours that still retains it.

 

Strikes are Troops, which factor into both the Battalion and Brigade detachment requirements. You also get Strikes for less than half the cost of Terminators, and nearly a third of the cost of Paladins. For 105pts a squad, they're great value. 

Ok, but do all benefits have to spill over. Lets say you take 3 cheaper old marines rifleman. what buffs that GK have are essential for them to work. Or an objective blob/alfa strike push back of 40-50 IG, does it become in efficient because it doesn't get to use some of the IG rules? If anything 8th, as far as imperials goes, enhances the need for going multi "faction" [where faction= IG/chad marines/different old marines/etc].

 

The re-roll aura from Grand Masters is pretty handy, as is the extended Smite range. Also I think its wise to get used to going pure, because in the future we will see GK specific detachments and cheesing in vanilla Marines won't benefit from that. I still consider 8th edition to be very much in the draft stage, this is a very rough and basic version of the game we'll eventually be playing a year from now. Until the army books get released, I'm not taking this meta seriously. Way too many changes potentially coming, both for our faction and opponents. 

 

Taking a separate detachment to bulk out your board presence is a different matter. I'm considering IG because they'd add a lot more scoring blobs to hug objectives, and GK do suffer from a lack of massed heavy weapons (we get excellent platforms in Ravens and Dreads, they're just expensive and few in number in most lists). Stuff with 24+ wounds worries me, because even with D3, 3 or D6 damage weapons you need a fair few to guarantee kills. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Who cares about troops, or the Battalion.

 

Run the better units instead. ;)

 

Also you don't need a seperate detachment, just stick IG in under the 'Imperial' Keyword.  They won't benefit from Aura's anyway.

[duz_]

Guard have always been a good compliment to GK from a fluff and table top perspective.

 

Army building right now is very fluid which I personally like.

 

Once codexes are released there maybe army wide benefits you go single source.

However until that is the case I'd fill out your army however you want. Guard certainly let you tick that battalion box fairly easily! ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Who cares about troops, or the Battalion.

 

Run the better units instead. 

 

Also you don't need a seperate detachment, just stick IG in under the 'Imperial' Keyword.  They won't benefit from Aura's anyway.

 

Command Points are a big deal dude. Being able to fight first, or re-roll a crucial dice roll up to four separate times in your turn is pretty strong. The armies that can make Brigade or even Battalion work will have a distinct advantage over those stuck with the +1CP detachments. It can be a little tricky getting Brigade with GK (the mandatory 3 Elite is the biggest tax IMO), but it's still doable at 2k-2.5k, 

 

Also, meeting the requirements for a Battalion is really easy. Three Strike squads is hardly a waste of points, and we're normally taking two HQ's anyway (Grand Master/Voldus for re-roll 1's aura and BC for Smite range bonus). That's +3CP right away. 

 

As I'd like to stress again, randomly mixing in other faction's 'good stuff' isn't going to work when our army books come out. We will be getting army-specific detachments that lock you into GK-only unit selections, and unless GW completely swing and miss, I'm expecting some significant boosts for doing so. This is how they're gonna sneak formations back into the game. I can already see box sets geared towards 'play X detachment for X faction right out of the box!'. 

[Aethernitas]

As I'd like to stress again, randomly mixing in other faction's 'good stuff' isn't going to work when our army books come out. We will be getting army-specific detachments that lock you into GK-only unit selections, and unless GW completely swing and miss, I'm expecting some significant boosts for doing so. This is how they're gonna sneak formations back into the game. I can already see box sets geared towards 'play X detachment for X faction right out of the box!'. 

 

I may be wrong but I seem to remember GeeDubs saying that there WON'T be any any army specific detachments, only army-specific uses for command points highly dependant on keywords.

[Mr. Poe]

Yea, I don't know why this keeps coming up. Maybe Chapter Tactics and their equivalents will be what keeps army compositions "pure" but I dont see army specific detachments making a come back. That was one of the main issues with 7th edition.   

[Adeptus]

I think they've made the decision that the best way to get people to buy new boxes, is to NOT require people to buy an entire army of that faction. GW think, and I agree, that people are more likely to buy more stuff if they can just jam a unit into their existing army using a common keyword like 'Imperial', so IMO the focus in the future will be on making it easier to include units from other factions into your army easier, rather than discouraged through faction specific 'formations' or detachments.

 

I know I'm already thinking about adding some Tempestus Scions as 'Inquisitorial Stormtroopers' to my Grey Knights force. Since they all have the 'Imperial' keyword then there's really nothing hindering the process.

 

It's something I've noticed in Battlescribe already, as an Imperial player I should be able to add any Imperial units to my roster, but Battlescribe only lets me add units from my faction, unless I add another detachment which will ALSO be limited to a single faction.

[Valerian]

 

 

I may be wrong but I seem to remember GeeDubs saying that there WON'T be any any army specific detachments, only army-specific uses for command points highly dependant on keywords.

 

 

That's exactly right.  Just expect some faction-specific Stratagems to come with the codex.  Of course, they might make those really attractive to encourage GK-only builds, but maybe not.  The three generic ones that come in the Rulebook are already decent enough.

 

 

 

It's something I've noticed in Battlescribe already, as an Imperial player I should be able to add any Imperial units to my roster, but Battlescribe only lets me add units from my faction, unless I add another detachment which will ALSO be limited to a single faction.

 

Yeah, looks like Battlescribe is screwed up then.  You should send them a note.  I've heard they're pretty quick to fix issues.

[duz_]

I know when you first start a new roster it will only let you add a single faction and detachment.

Once the list is created you can go back and add forces to the same detachment in the edit forces section. Just select the detachment you want to add to or create a new one.

[the jeske]

Seen a few games played with a wall of terminators and G-man handing out re-rolls. Seems like a valid and fun way to play .

[Waking Dreamer]

G-man = Grandmaster?

[Adeptus]

I know when you first start a new roster it will only let you add a single faction and detachment.

Once the list is created you can go back and add forces to the same detachment in the edit forces section. Just select the detachment you want to add to or create a new one.

Yeah, I just had a play around with it. I'm using the mobile friendly 8th files and it SEEMS to add a whole other detachment when you add another faction, but in reality it's just letting you add to your existing detachment, so it LOOKS like it's not working, but it's just a clumsy looking work around. Ideally you'd just select a faction keyword and in the selection menus you'd see all available choices with that keyword.

 

Also, can anyone confirm if Inquisitors can take power armour or not? I'm not seeing it anywhere as an option. And Battlescribe is showing some screwy options for Inquisitorial stuff in general but I never downloaded the index with Inquisition stuff in it before it got taken down so I can't check if it's right or not.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Adeptus

[Shagah]

 

Also, can anyone confirm if Inquisitors can take power armour or not? I'm not seeing it anywhere as an option. And Battlescribe is showing some screwy options for Inquisitorial stuff in general but I never downloaded the index with Inquisition stuff in it before it got taken down so I can't check if it's right or not.

 

 

No they can't at the moment.

[Adeptus]

 

 

Also, can anyone confirm if Inquisitors can take power armour or not? I'm not seeing it anywhere as an option. And Battlescribe is showing some screwy options for Inquisitorial stuff in general but I never downloaded the index with Inquisition stuff in it before it got taken down so I can't check if it's right or not.

 

No they can't at the moment.

Well that's a bit crap. I spent ages putting together a power armoured Inquisitor conversion :(