8th ed Vangaurd Veteran

[Mobius0288]

So I've seen some posts scattered across different threads... Are these guys going to be useful as their own unit? So far I've seen:

 

- Potential tactic: Tie up a unit in melee, "fall back" the following turn and shoot (enabling another unit to shoot into them as well)

- Possible niche: Character hunters

- Possible niche: Only unit that can assault other flying units not in hover

- Possible wargear: Lots of dual pistols in order to abuse gunslinger

 

I've also got a few more I want to put together, so I'm also looking for load out suggestions. I've got 3 with claw/SS and the overkill characters (2 claws, 1 chainsword w/ hand flamer). That leaves me two left to kit out. Thoughts? I've never actually used VVs.

 

If it matters, the rest of the army is 4 kill teams (Corvus + a couple transports), 2 dreads and a gunslinger Capt. Toying with a gunslinger Blackshield.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Mobius0288

[SnakeChisler]

Depends what your expecting them to do?

 

Initial games seem to indicate that melee while good isnt as powerfull as you'd think

 

they need survivability from incoming fire then overwatch then you need to inflict as much damage on the unit your attacking as possible.

 

The last part is difficult to judge lightning claws are your best infantry killers heavy thunder hammers are your best MC tank killers

[Irbis]

I don't think claws are good on VV, on captain, though, I'd definitely consider them thanks to his statline. I am considering pistols on VV because you always get to use them, without relying on charges, ignoring overwatch and being shot off the board.

 

As for blackshield, I dunno. I feel that is one model you always want a power sword on, purely due to larger amount of attacks. Ditto for veteran sergeant.

[SnakeChisler]

After getting into combat a few times the lack of an extra attack as you charge is quite telling

 

The big thing for VV's is movement and as a counter attacking unit, you can't afford to sink a huge amount of points into them to make them true combat killers but you can use them as either a tarpit unit or a counter attack unit, yes your opponent gets to with draw but that unit in most circumstances can't shoot if they do. You need to do enough damage to at least force a morale check that will do something.

 

Weapons wise

I took a look at the Heavy Thunder Hammer and while D6 damage sounds appealing your on 2 attacks at -1 to hit (you can't give theses to Sgts).

A pair of Claws givs you an extra attack so a Sgt gets 3+1 hitting on 3's with shred.

Chainsword / pistol gives you the extra attack in melee and if someone stays locked you get a pistol shot for good measure.

Other power weapons, I think the fact they have only 2 attacks base puts a bit of a dampener on splashing out too much on extra CC weapons.

 

Meta - what's your area like does it have a load of horde armies or is everyone a Marine player a huge factor in how you want to run these. 

[mjrwaud]

I'm a big fan of vanguard vets, but don't feel like mine are really optimal, so could also use some advice. 

 

Here's what I've got at the moment:

 

5 X Power weapon + pistol (Axe + grav, Axe + bolt, Mace + inferno, Mace + bolt, Sword + plasma)

3 X Power weapon + storm shield (Axe, Mace, Sword)

3 X Heavy  Thunder hammer

2 X Lightning claws

2 X Pistols (Bolt + Inferno, Bolt + Plasma)

 

Inferno pack a real punch but are awfully expensive, so swapping for plasma / grav might be much better...

Are storm shields ever worth it?

[Mobius0288]

For the meta, I'm not quite sure. I don't have much experience with the local community yet. Because of that, I think I wanted to round out the unit the best I can.

 

I think as far as how I want to use them in my army... I'll deep strike them in some sort of flanking position, do some some shooting and charge to kill off some easy/isolated targets. An expensive assassination unit if you will. I would also consider them a hold the line kind of unit until I can get my transports up the field.

 

Based on your guys' thoughts so far, I foresee either:

VV Sergeant - 2 claws

VV - claw/shield

VV - claw/shield

VV - hand flamer/chainsword

VV - bolt pistol/plasma pistol

 

Infantry/more survivability focused.

 

-or-

 

VV Sergeant - 2 claws

VV - claw/shield

VV - hand flamer/chainsword

VV - bolt pistol/grav pistol

VV - bolt pistol/grav pistol

 

Little more rounded, able to take on vehicles/MCs and characters a little better.

 

Am I on the right track? I know you recommended not investing too many points into them. Problem is already built 3 with claw/shield because in 7th I wanted them in my kill teams.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Mobius0288

[SnakeChisler]

I've been revisiting my models with a hobby knife and an upgrade pack some magnets and my bits box in prep for 8th.

 

If your careful you can prise the arms off before re-attaching with magnets to give yourself some cheaper options, once done they can be swapped between bikes VV & Standard vets

[Mobius0288]

I don't mind buying another box if it means I can make these guys usable.

[Vel'Cona]

I don't mind buying another box if it means I can make these guys usable.

 

It's a pretty good value from a pure bits perspective, with a mess of Jump Packs, specialist CCW (especially TH with how much they were buffed in 8th) and pistols, too.

[MeltaRange]

I'm not sold on dual pistol vanguard vets.  Anyone have any anecdotal experience with them?  I feel like they are below average in combat and need to survive 2 rounds (at least) in order to shoot into combat - so will be dead by the time that happens.

 

I'm painting up a couple right now and planning on trying out a unit of 5 - plan is to make it well rounded so it can be a quick, multi-purpose response unit.

 

Veteran Sergeant - 2x L Claws

VV - 2x L Claws

VV - Power Axe + Plasma Pistol

VV - 2 Grav Pistols

VV - 2 Plasma Pistols

 

I also have a Jump Pack Captain included in the army, who could roll near them for re-rolls and some extra combat punch.

 

I feel like I'm better off just going full L Claws on the entire unit and make them as dangerous a combat unit as possible.

[Mobius0288]

So I'm getting the vibe that storm shields are probably not a good investment for these guys? Just get them into melee and distract as long as possible with some shooting capabilities?

[SnakeChisler]

Until GW drops the points cost of Stormshields from 15 to 5 like everyone else then the price is out of kilter with the benefit.

 

Make them too expensive and you can't afford to chuck them at a problem in battle, make them too weak and your points are wasted.

 

SIA even on Pistols is a very useful thing if your replacing it then you need to be getting value out of it and Plasma/Grav  pistol points are probably best spent elsewhere as the focus of the unit is to be in combat either behind enemy lines harrying or counter attacking a looming threat.

 

You can build convert a model to be a Captain with Jump Pack, I did a quick once over and the option still seems valid which if your wanting to run multiple VV units would add some re-rolls.

 

As with any deathwatch unit it is very easy to get lost in the goodie box and give them all sorts of upgrades which may or may not add value to the squad and power weapons are the prime example, their cheap but do you need them on all 5 guys what with loosing models to overwatch and pulling models off in combat?

[Vel'Cona]

I'm not sold on dual pistol vanguard vets.  Anyone have any anecdotal experience with them?  I feel like they are below average in combat and need to survive 2 rounds (at least) in order to shoot into combat - so will be dead by the time that happens.

 

I think if you want to do Plasma drop, the VVs are probably the best value for your buck.  Dual-wielding PP is only 1 point more than a PG, and they can keep using them after charging into combat.  A Captain/Watch Master is an absolute must but 10 Supercharged shots is pretty nasty on the drop, no matter what you're target is.

[Vansh]

I really think 1 Stormshield is mandatory in every squad that is going to be up close due to so many modifiers. It can really save the day as they did in 7th. However, make sure it's not on your sergeant and it's just a dude with a chainsword or pistol. Especially with strategium reroll. If I was going to do a squad it would be 4 PP, 1 PS on the Sgt and a Stormshield/Chainsword.

[shandwen]

With ap being a sliding scale the need for storm shields is in decline. Most anti-meq fire will at least leave a 5+ save, which is reasonable when you realize a storm shields is the better part of another marine.

[Vel'Cona]

With ap being a sliding scale the need for storm shields is in decline. Most anti-meq fire will at least leave a 5+ save, which is reasonable when you realize a storm shields is the better part of another marine.

 

At least for DW, it is.  Other armies are spoiled with 5-point SS which makes it less of a hindrance, but yes for DW I'd agree the SS is incredibly overpriced.