Back to the Drawing board, again

[palin2222]

Greetings Brothers,

I've recently purchased Index I and sat down to see what my current army point cost would be. Needless to say, I was not pleased. In 6th and 7th my lists started with a core of a Librarian, 2 full tactical squads (MG and LC) with Rhinos, A devastator Squad (1 HB, 2 ML, and a LC) with a Razorback (with TLLC) and a Pred, (LC Sponsons). What ever tickled my fancy. In 8th I find that this same load out costs 1.5x what it used to, and I dont really have room for anything with some omph.  That and our Psychic powers are terrible imho,  So clearly I can keep the same list. There are a couple of things I wanted to play with, but I'm not sure which way to go. At first I was really excited about Belial's Rerolls to hit for deathwing, until it hit me that Venerable Dreads and Landraider Crusaders (2 of my all time favorite models) do not get the Deathwing rules and wont benefit from Belials Rerolls. Really I cant see putting any more than 5, Mayhaps 10 Terminator models in a list before you run out of points, and that isn't even counting the Land raider you need for the Knights. 

 

anyway, I have to start over and find something that I like. How are the rest of you coping?

 

 

[Kewl Imp]

Mixed. But I'm still experimenting with different Ravenwing lists. I have to agree that some of the loses bother me. The change in jink and lose Hit and Run seriously changes the way the army plays. So learning, but I have only been playing on the weekends. I may start playing the middle of week as well but I'm married so balance.

[_evil_homer_]

I don't think your really that far off.  I played a greenwing last week against a chaos army.  I took:

Azrael (180)

2x full tactical squads w/ Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon, and sgt w/ Plasma Pistol, Powerfist (382)

1x Rhino (70)

2x Razorback w/ twin lascannon (230)

1x full Assault squad w2x flamer, sgt w/plasma pistol, powerfist (205)

1x full Devastator squad w 4x/lascannon (230)

1x full Sniper scouts w/heavy bolter

 

It was a 1500 point game w/ Maelstrom missions.  Azrael's re-rolls are awesome.  I think the librarian is fine just to smite (which probably won the chaos player the game) and cast Aversion.  I guess my point is I think greenwing is playable and you have some of the tools to start there.  I like the all las predator but not more than two razorbacks with twin las.  If the pred was T8 I'd think differently maybe.

 

I have also played pure Deathwing with knights, belial, and dark vengeane squad load outs against dark eldar and regular eldar at 1500 point.  The DE list ran three ravagers with darklances and couldn't pop the LRC as I was making sure I was killing 1 ravager per turn.  Belial and the knights didn't even get out until turn 4 but when they did they cleaned house.

 

My original plan to open 8th with Deathwing and I'll still play them some, but as a marine player who hates regular marines I find myself intrigued by green marine lists.  I was especially happy with the assault squad and really think jump packs are awesome this edition.  I'll probably get my second assault unit built and drop either the scouts or the second tactical squad.  I want to keep the scouts to keep more possible mortal wounds in play.

 

I think you have an opportunity to try a lot of things maybe different than before.  Your devastator squad, as currently constructed, will be able to shoot the HB at infantry while the other three weapons target something heavy so that is a bit more efficient than before.  I think your comes in at somewhere between 1100-1200 points (looking at rough with no book handy) so depending on your regular game size you have quite a bit of room to put something in.  

[ronin_cse]

Why do you think the DA psychic powers are terrible?

[CaptainCaveman87]

I thought the venerable dread did get the deathwing roll, isn't it the units dark angels can take in small print?

[dtse]

Check out list forum. A lot of my play experience with various lists is there. Dark angels is good. Way better than other space marines except maybe ultramarines with guilleman. My play experience so far 12 games

[palin2222]

I thought the venerable dread did get the deathwing roll, isn't it the units dark angels can take in small print?

You are correct, I didn't see that subscript in the App, thanks for pointing that out. 

[palin2222]

Why do you think the DA psychic powers are terrible?

Before you even consider what the powers do, all three need a warp charge of 6 to activate. Meaning right off the bat you have a slightly less than 50% chance of activating it without a problem. 5 failure options, 5 success options, 1 success but perils option. then on top of that denying is easier then ever. So all ready it is an unappealing option.

 

Then you look at the powers them selves..

Mind worm. 1 mortal wound and they have to use that model last in the fight phase. (assumiing they survuve) Underwelming

Aversion: Target unit subtracts one from all of its hit rolls. With all the reroll in this addition this will have little if any effect

Engulfing Fear: Take the lower of 2 dice when making a morale check. Marines (the most common enemy) can reroll morale anyway, making this ability almost useless. 

 

Smite is far better than anything on our list. Its easier to pull off, and more devastating. Just sayin'

[CaptainCaveman87]

I wouldn't shrug off aversion as rerolls are done before modifiers add in a dark shroud and the unit will be on - 2 so a marine for example hits on 3 so can only reroll ones and twos and then after you apply the - 2 to hit so all his 3s and 4s will be misses.

[SnakeChisler]

 

Why do you think the DA psychic powers are terrible?

Before you even consider what the powers do, all three need a warp charge of 6 to activate. Meaning right off the bat you have a slightly less than 50% chance of activating it without a problem. 5 failure options, 5 success options, 1 success but perils option. then on top of that denying is easier then ever. So all ready it is an unappealing option.

 

Then you look at the powers them selves..

Mind worm. 1 mortal wound and they have to use that model last in the fight phase. (assumiing they survuve) Underwelming

Aversion: Target unit subtracts one from all of its hit rolls. With all the reroll in this addition this will have little if any effect

Engulfing Fear: Take the lower of 2 dice when making a morale check. Marines (the most common enemy) can reroll morale anyway, making this ability almost useless. 

 

Smite is far better than anything on our list. Its easier to pull off, and more devastating. Just sayin'

 

 

Aversion one of the most deadly powers in NuHammer - It doesn't just work for shooting and its effect magnifies the bigger the unit is

 

Mind worm - having a unit forced to be selected LAST in the fight phase is huge, if it charges it goes last, if its the only unit in combat in your opponents turn it goes last.

 

Casting - What are command points for? a well rounded army in 8th is going to be rocking 10

 

I take your negative waves sir and bat them back with the mace of optimism :p

[dtse]

yes, smite is powerful, but -1 to hit is SUPER STRONG.  thats what makes darkshroud an almost auto take in any DA list.  If you dont think -1 to hit is strong, you havent played enough

[Kewl Imp]

Because of the way rerolls work now, Aversion is very powerful. Since it can only be on one unit it can make a huge difference. But put it on a super heavy tank and have your units in the dark shroud aura, -2 hit. Technically hitting on 5s, but the rerolls go off of base BS not modified. It can be very potent. And as mindworm is concerned, its been more useful than you think. I played a game where several combats were going on but his warlord for 3 rounds could attack first so I didn't have to worry about that combat until the last one. (Admittedly we both wiffed a lot but I ended up killing his warlord first because of mindworm)

 

Smite is a good effective spell but I've found more use with Aversion.

[Frater Cornelius]

Take it from an AoS player, negative modifiers are far more significant than they seem at first. Dark Shroud and Aversion are definitely worth it. Having said that, I do think DA psychic powers are not as good as they could have been. Still, they get the job done and that is what matters.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

I liked the smite mindworm combo because it lets you dish out some mortal wounds. 

[palin2222]

I'll concede that mayhaps Aversion is better than I had originally thought, but I still don't like the less than 50% activation rate of psychic powers in general

[aura_enchanted]

ive been mulling over a land raider excelsior and deredeo combo squad.

 

so the deredeo buys the aoe invul backpack and some hellfire plasma carronades, and just pumps damage from as far back as he can, doing his best to keep stride with the excelsior. the excelsior benefits from his bubble giving him a 4+ invul (nuts im aware) and acting as a screen.

 

this is based on a tactic i saw applied in 7th called "drive a land riader up a table and win the game" effectively the land raider becomes a massive damage sponge and the two punch out damage like its out of fashion.

 

combo in some deepstrike support assets to quickly eliminate infantry and TEQ's on a spot notice and you have a recipe for a really efficient house cleaner.

 

if i get a target that really needs to die i also have a one time orbital bombardment with the excelsior, not as good as paired with the primaris who can drop them every bloody turn, but ill take what i can get.

[Berzul]

I would add to the discussion that although most units got new higher prices in points, making it difficult to play the game in the old ways, all armies got a similar treatment. In that sense, its not the Dark Angels, but the whole game, that got redesigned to make armies smaller.

 

Some squads can no longer be easily assembled, such as large squads of speeders, full ravenwing attack squadrons (the formation itself no longer being a single army choice, not withstanding), or tank squads. Most units must now b taken in single model forms, which changes the size, and the way of the game. And other changes support this design criteria. For instance, the toughness and wound values of vehicles. They have become fewer in number in an army, but they last a lot longer on the board.

 

This does not mean we have to like it, but at least it is a fair state for the game, with everyone being forced to adapt to a similar situation.

 

I WILL miss the possibility of spamming Heavy Bolter Landspeeders though... I mean, it used to cost 55 points a piece with dual HBs in each? Making that squad now would cost over 500 points, versus the 275 it used to cost.

[Helycon]

 

Why do you think the DA psychic powers are terrible?

 

Before you even consider what the powers do, all three need a warp charge of 6 to activate. Meaning right off the bat you have a slightly less than 50% chance of activating it without a problem. 5 failure options, 5 success options, 1 success but perils option. then on top of that denying is easier then ever. So all ready it is an unappealing option.

 

Then you look at the powers them selves..

Mind worm. 1 mortal wound and they have to use that model last in the fight phase. (assumiing they survuve) Underwelming

Aversion: Target unit subtracts one from all of its hit rolls. With all the reroll in this addition this will have little if any effect

Engulfing Fear: Take the lower of 2 dice when making a morale check. Marines (the most common enemy) can reroll morale anyway, making this ability almost useless. 

 

Smite is far better than anything on our list. Its easier to pull off, and more devastating. Just sayin'

Your calculations are off. It's about 72% chance to succeed. You did not take into account that rolling two dice, you have multiple ways of rolling, say, a 7. It could be 3+4 or 5+2 or 6+1, but also 4+3 or 2+5 or 1+6, which aren't the same, due the the option of two dice.

 

Total chance of perils is about 5,5% by the way.

 

That said, most people have pointed out the actual powers really aren't bad at all. The -1 to hit can mess with armies badly, especially combined with a Darkshroud.

[Berzul]

 

 

Why do you think the DA psychic powers are terrible?

Before you even consider what the powers do, all three need a warp charge of 6 to activate. Meaning right off the bat you have a slightly less than 50% chance of activating it without a problem. 5 failure options, 5 success options, 1 success but perils option. then on top of that denying is easier then ever. So all ready it is an unappealing option.

 

Then you look at the powers them selves..

Mind worm. 1 mortal wound and they have to use that model last in the fight phase. (assumiing they survuve) Underwelming

Aversion: Target unit subtracts one from all of its hit rolls. With all the reroll in this addition this will have little if any effect

Engulfing Fear: Take the lower of 2 dice when making a morale check. Marines (the most common enemy) can reroll morale anyway, making this ability almost useless. 

 

Smite is far better than anything on our list. Its easier to pull off, and more devastating. Just sayin'

Your calculations are off. It's about 72% chance to succeed. You did not take into account that rolling two dice, you have multiple ways of rolling, say, a 7. It could be 3+4 or 5+2 or 6+1, but also 4+3 or 2+5 or 1+6, which aren't the same, due the the option of two dice.

 

Total chance of perils is about 5,5% by the way.

 

That said, most people have pointed out the actual powers really aren't bad at all. The -1 to hit can mess with armies badly, especially combined with a Darkshroud.

 

 

Indeed, you have to consider the statistical probability of rolling 6+ on two dice. In fact, after 7 being the most likely result in 2 six-sided dice, 6 and 8 are the following most likely results. All of them would mean a succesful cast.

 

Also, with regards to mind worm, correct e if I am wrong but I believe that it forces the unit to fight last. Don't have my index with me to check, so I could be wrong, but if this is indeed the case, that is huge in terms of overall combat. Forcing a unit to fight last can seriously hinder an opponents strategy during the close combat phase.

[Elios Harg]

 

 

 

Why do you think the DA psychic powers are terrible?

Before you even consider what the powers do, all three need a warp charge of 6 to activate. Meaning right off the bat you have a slightly less than 50% chance of activating it without a problem. 5 failure options, 5 success options, 1 success but perils option. then on top of that denying is easier then ever. So all ready it is an unappealing option.

 

Then you look at the powers them selves..

Mind worm. 1 mortal wound and they have to use that model last in the fight phase. (assumiing they survuve) Underwelming

Aversion: Target unit subtracts one from all of its hit rolls. With all the reroll in this addition this will have little if any effect

Engulfing Fear: Take the lower of 2 dice when making a morale check. Marines (the most common enemy) can reroll morale anyway, making this ability almost useless. 

 

Smite is far better than anything on our list. Its easier to pull off, and more devastating. Just sayin'

Your calculations are off. It's about 72% chance to succeed. You did not take into account that rolling two dice, you have multiple ways of rolling, say, a 7. It could be 3+4 or 5+2 or 6+1, but also 4+3 or 2+5 or 1+6, which aren't the same, due the the option of two dice.

 

Total chance of perils is about 5,5% by the way.

 

That said, most people have pointed out the actual powers really aren't bad at all. The -1 to hit can mess with armies badly, especially combined with a Darkshroud.

 

 

Indeed, you have to consider the statistical probability of rolling 6+ on two dice. In fact, after 7 being the most likely result in 2 six-sided dice, 6 and 8 are the following most likely results. All of them would mean a succesful cast.

 

Also, with regards to mind worm, correct e if I am wrong but I believe that it forces the unit to fight last. Don't have my index with me to check, so I could be wrong, but if this is indeed the case, that is huge in terms of overall combat. Forcing a unit to fight last can seriously hinder an opponents strategy during the close combat phase.

 

 

 

Correct. Mind worm applies to any one unit in 12" of the psyker. This is important because it means that it can target characters if they are not the closest (unlike smite). I'm not sure how it will interact with attack first rules like Banshee Masks, but it should either cancel out or  maybe it will only help if you charge the banshees (making them attack last among the "strike first" crowd or something). Mind worm and aversion are both quite good (heavy weapon penalties, aversion and dark shroud stack, meaning you could prevent heavy weapons from even being able to hit at all in some cases where BS is 4+ or worse; this could also make bad things that happen on 1s like exploding plasma happen on 2s, 3s, or 4s making super charging suicidal; also aversion works in close combat, cast it on power fist guys and suddenly they need a 5+ to hit). Engulfing fear is even good depending on the opponent, against low Ld and/or high casualty rate armies like imperial guard, it can be pretty solid. Also, it is useful against Daemons for preventing units from blinking and adding slain models back to their units (a 1 in 6 chance every time they take at least 1 casualty becomes a 1 in 36 chance). Trust me, that is useful, I had a horrible time fighting daemons over the weekend due to them blinking any time I got their units down to close to dead. Null zone might have been better vs. daemons, but engulfing fear would have still helped.

[Itsacon]

The extra dice when making morale checks may be so-so against marines, but against other armies it can absolutely demolish. I used it to good effect yesterday with a bike-mounted libby. Just focus-fire a unit, and use the power to finish them off.