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Are Iron Warriors valid?

iron warriors 8th ed

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#1
Custodian Athiair

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Hey guys, it's been a while since I've been on the site, hell it's been a while since I've been involved in Games Workshop. Anyway into the topic.

 

A bunch of mates and I are considering starting our own Tale of Warlords (come September), and with the outset of a new edition, I thought I would finally get around to getting an army I've loved since I read Storm of Iron. The Iron Warriors. And I was initially really looking forward to it, never expected it to be a power play army but I thought it'd be decent enough to win a few games, and enjoying all the big guns and gruesome artillery warfare. 

 

However having had a couple of games with my Salamanders, and reading the Chaos index in full detail, I'm suddenly very skeptical that Iron Warrior would even pose any sort of (casually) competitive army. With Loyal Space Marines getting plenty of buff bubbles from captains/chaplains/lieutenants the "average" nature of their stats and weapons get brought up to a decent level. Looking at Chaos that buffing effect is minimal at best. 

 

Obviously, this is supposedly compensated by the taking of different icons, however with Iron Warriors generally shunning the use of any specific gods boons or pacts I wouldn't want to really take any of the other icons (plus they don't seem that great to me anyway).

 

Basically I'm asking you guys if you have any suggestions as to how to play a fluffy, but not useless, Iron Warriors army. I want to have fun, but I can't deny my competitive streak. The Heavy Support section is looking tasty I can't deny, but how effective are different things.

 

I've got a few models/units that I would want to take anyway just cause I love the units (Heldrake painted up as a welsh dragon sue me).

 

Anyway I'll shut up and let the more intelligent/experienced people give me information and advice. Thanks in advance

 

 

ps. What's the opinion on the Chaos Start Collecting box? I look at it and think "meh"


Edited by Custodian Athiair, 24 June 2017 - 08:32 PM.

 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
"What in Terra's name are you doing?"
"Um...gathering tactical data."
"With a spork?"

 

The Leonic Heresy (alternate history): http://www.bolterand...-leonic-heresy/

Salamanders {8th}: W:24{5} D:8{0} L:10{0}


#2
Goreshed

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While yes it seems like the Space Marines pull ahead in that department, we also have daemon engines. Who regen wounds (I'm looking at you mauler/forge-fiends). And do not suck.

 

Remember that you can still take an icon of vengeance which gives us another boost to LD which is more important now than ever in this new edition.

 

Not to mention now with everyone working off the same formations and no factions have any bonuses currently this levels the playing field immensely for all.


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#3
Warsmith Uveron

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The Daemon Engine 'Monster Mash' supported by a pile of cultists as the few Iron Warriors carry heavy weapons and sit in a Bastion.

 

Its not a bad list.   


The Following are links to the collections of threads about my many collections  Uverons Black Crusade , Uverons Imperials, Uverons ORKS!!

 

 

 

#4
Custodian Athiair

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Also slightly disappointed about the inability to run with Guard allies (aka Traitor guard) now. Want the big big guns, and the squishy cannon fodder.

 

Deamon-engines are rather tasty I suppose, 

 

You guys have a valid point about that Ld improvement, since we don't get ATSKNF.

 

Opinions on Defilers now? My first glance is they're decent now, and I've always liked them


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
"What in Terra's name are you doing?"
"Um...gathering tactical data."
"With a spork?"

 

The Leonic Heresy (alternate history): http://www.bolterand...-leonic-heresy/

Salamanders {8th}: W:24{5} D:8{0} L:10{0}


#5
ChazSexington

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Iron Warriors, with loads of heavy support, look solid this edition. I know Helbrutes and DiscoPredators (triple las) are solid from the games I've played so far.

Fluff-wise, there's nothing in the way of Iron Warriors taking marks, they just don't tend to focus massively on one god.


Also slightly disappointed about the inability to run with Guard allies (aka Traitor guard) now. Want the big big guns, and the squishy cannon fodder.

Deamon-engines are rather tasty I suppose,

You guys have a valid point about that Ld improvement, since we don't get ATSKNF.

Opinions on Defilers now? My first glance is they're decent now, and I've always liked them


Renegade Guard were released from ForgeWorld on Friday. Check their Imperial guard index. You've Cultists too, but don't take them. Terrible for what they do.
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#6
Custodian Athiair

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Iron Warriors, with loads of heavy support, look solid this edition. I know Helbrutes and DiscoPredators (triple las) are solid from the games I've played so far.

Fluff-wise, there's nothing in the way of Iron Warriors taking marks, they just don't tend to focus massively on one god.

 

Also slightly disappointed about the inability to run with Guard allies (aka Traitor guard) now. Want the big big guns, and the squishy cannon fodder.

Deamon-engines are rather tasty I suppose,

You guys have a valid point about that Ld improvement, since we don't get ATSKNF.

Opinions on Defilers now? My first glance is they're decent now, and I've always liked them


Renegade Guard were released from ForgeWorld on Friday. Check their Imperial guard index. You've Cultists too, but don't take them. Terrible for what they do.

 

 

So take Renegade Guard "allies" detachment is the best way to get those cannon fodder grunts?

 

Okay I'll take Icons into consideration a bit, see what they can do for me. Thanks guys! 


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
"What in Terra's name are you doing?"
"Um...gathering tactical data."
"With a spork?"

 

The Leonic Heresy (alternate history): http://www.bolterand...-leonic-heresy/

Salamanders {8th}: W:24{5} D:8{0} L:10{0}


#7
Raven1

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You can take a separate guard detachment, but the AM and Heretic Astartes can't be in the same detachment. The FW index for AM will include Renegades so don't fret too much. A monster list does seem viable with HQ of Warpsmith or a hellwright, with a heavy helping of cheap cultists, renegade guard etc to absorb charges or keep deepstriking units away.

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#8
Petitioner's City

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And because they share the chaos word, you can include all renegade units, as well as FW eyrine cult units, heretic knights & titans, in your detachment also (slots willing) - not in separate detachments ;)

You prob want to include hellforged units from the fw index, inc a hellwright, as well as renegade big guns from the FW guard index.
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#9
Custodian Athiair

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Right okay thanks guys. So can take Guard in a separate detachment, but same army. But assuming I can use Forge World rules with my opponent I can use Renegade Guard in the same detachment. 

 

Although quick question what is a hellwright? (Definitely taking Rapier batteries, love them in HH, I'm sure I'll love them now).

 

Thanks guys, made me feel more confident about Iron Warriors being not pants 


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
"What in Terra's name are you doing?"
"Um...gathering tactical data."
"With a spork?"

 

The Leonic Heresy (alternate history): http://www.bolterand...-leonic-heresy/

Salamanders {8th}: W:24{5} D:8{0} L:10{0}


#10
Raven1

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Hellwright is a unit in the FW Index Chaos he is basically an Archmagos and has an option of an Abeyant or however its spelled

https://www.forgewor...kavac-Archmagos

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#11
Panzer

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You can take a separate guard detachment, but the AM and Heretic Astartes can't be in the same detachment. The FW index for AM will include Renegades so don't fret too much. A monster list does seem viable with HQ of Warpsmith or a hellwright, with a heavy helping of cheap cultists, renegade guard etc to absorb charges or keep deepstriking units away.

 

 

Right okay thanks guys. So can take Guard in a separate detachment, but same army. But assuming I can use Forge World rules with my opponent I can use Renegade Guard in the same detachment. 

 

Although quick question what is a hellwright? (Definitely taking Rapier batteries, love them in HH, I'm sure I'll love them now).

 

Thanks guys, made me feel more confident about Iron Warriors being not pants 

Uhm no?

All units in your ARMY have to share at least one faction keyword. Not just the ones in a detachment. Just check page 214 under "Choose Armies" -> "Army Faction".

 

It clearly says: "All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are <UNALIGNED>, must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. <IMPERIUM> or <CHAOS>), even though they may be in different detachments."


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#12
Sception

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You don't even need a separate detachment.  You can just base your army on the 'Chaos' faction keyword, and include any units you like that share that keyword, including CSM stuff (terminators, marines, havocs, daemon engines, obliterators, warpsmith), Daemon stuff (soul grinder), & renegade knights from the Chaos Index; helwrights, helforged vehicles, fliers, more daemon engines, and more renegade knights from the FW chaos index; and renegade guard including psykers, mutants, ogryns, and a wide selection of tanks and artillery from the FW guard index, which also grants chaos some units from the GW Imperium 2 index.

 

 

Note that renegade guard are kind of bad.  Like, the units themselves are mostly guard units, at the same points cost, but with no orders, worse saves, worse leadership, and, most crippling of all, worse ballistic skill.  AND the list was clearly never played and possibly never even read after the first draft was written, because several of their weapon stats are wrong (6" autopistols instead of 12"), half their characters are missing the 'character' keyword, and they can't even ride in their own transports due to not having the 'astra militarum' keyword.  And they interact poorly with other chaos armies due to not having mark/alignment keywords and eating your warlord slot to get what few lackluster bonuses their infantry can grab.  They're kind of a huge, messy disappointment.  But if you're just using the rules to add some Chaos-keyword versions of guard tanks and artillery to your Iron Warriors themed Chaos faction detachments then that's not so much of a problem for you.


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#13
Panzer

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 AND the list was clearly never played and possibly never even read after the first draft was written, because several of their weapon stats are wrong (6" autopistols instead of 12"), half their characters are missing the 'character' keyword, and they can't even ride in their own transports due to not having the 'astra militarum' keyword.  And they interact poorly with other chaos armies due to not having mark/alignment keywords and eating your warlord slot to get what few lackluster bonuses their infantry can grab.  They're kind of a huge, messy disappointment.  But if you're just using the rules to add some Chaos-keyword versions of guard tanks and artillery to your Iron Warriors themed Chaos faction detachments then that's not so much of a problem for you.

That's the case for many FW Indices tho. T'au even have a flier who can't shoot his only note-worthy weapon because it's a Macro weapon and the unit is lacking the Titanic keyword or a special rule that allows it to shoot such a weapon after moving its minimum distance.

 

FW really just rushed the Indices without paying attention and I think that's partly GWs fault because it really seemed like GW gave them information about how the new edition works really late.


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#14
Custodian Athiair

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You can take a separate guard detachment, but the AM and Heretic Astartes can't be in the same detachment. The FW index for AM will include Renegades so don't fret too much. A monster list does seem viable with HQ of Warpsmith or a hellwright, with a heavy helping of cheap cultists, renegade guard etc to absorb charges or keep deepstriking units away.

 

 

Right okay thanks guys. So can take Guard in a separate detachment, but same army. But assuming I can use Forge World rules with my opponent I can use Renegade Guard in the same detachment. 

 

Although quick question what is a hellwright? (Definitely taking Rapier batteries, love them in HH, I'm sure I'll love them now).

 

Thanks guys, made me feel more confident about Iron Warriors being not pants 

Uhm no?

All units in your ARMY have to share at least one faction keyword. Not just the ones in a detachment. Just check page 214 under "Choose Armies" -> "Army Faction".

 

It clearly says: "All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are <UNALIGNED>, must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. <IMPERIUM> or <CHAOS>), even though they may be in different detachments."

 

 

Okay thanks, I haven't memorised rules yet, would have checked before I did anything anyway. But the clarification does help a lot!

 

You don't even need a separate detachment.  You can just base your army on the 'Chaos' faction keyword, and include any units you like that share that keyword, including CSM stuff (terminators, marines, havocs, daemon engines, obliterators, warpsmith), Daemon stuff (soul grinder), & renegade knights from the Chaos Index; helwrights, helforged vehicles, fliers, more daemon engines, and more renegade knights from the FW chaos index; and renegade guard including psykers, mutants, ogryns, and a wide selection of tanks and artillery from the FW guard index, which also grants chaos some units from the GW Imperium 2 index.

 

 

Note that renegade guard are kind of bad.  Like, the units themselves are mostly guard units, at the same points cost, but with no orders, worse saves, worse leadership, and, most crippling of all, worse ballistic skill.  AND the list was clearly never played and possibly never even read after the first draft was written, because several of their weapon stats are wrong (6" autopistols instead of 12"), half their characters are missing the 'character' keyword, and they can't even ride in their own transports due to not having the 'astra militarum' keyword.  And they interact poorly with other chaos armies due to not having mark/alignment keywords and eating your warlord slot to get what few lackluster bonuses their infantry can grab.  They're kind of a huge, messy disappointment.  But if you're just using the rules to add some Chaos-keyword versions of guard tanks and artillery to your Iron Warriors themed Chaos faction detachments then that's not so much of a problem for you.

 

Yeh I had a look at the Renegade Guard earlier, they are a bit poor. Although in terms of "orders" not exactly what I'd be thinking for just cannon fodder meat which I've got in my head for fluff. So not a total travesty


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
"What in Terra's name are you doing?"
"Um...gathering tactical data."
"With a spork?"

 

The Leonic Heresy (alternate history): http://www.bolterand...-leonic-heresy/

Salamanders {8th}: W:24{5} D:8{0} L:10{0}


#15
Sception

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A lot of the R&H units have been 'bad on purpose' since their inception, which is frustrating, and more annoyingly they've always worked very poorly in mixed armies with CSM allies due to the warlord thing, which was even more onerous back in the day because not only were bonuses dependent on it, but entire units as well.  In exchange, they did have cheaper artillery, but now that all weapons and the like are on fixed costs across all books, that's not really a thing.

 

All that said, it's mostly just the basic R&H troopers that are bad - both the troop version and the heavy weapon team units.  they've got some ok HQs in the form of psyker characters and unit teams, some ok elites in their disciple, marauder, and ogryn units, some ok fast attack in spawn and sentinels, and some ok heavy support, fliers, & super heavies in the form of various FW and GW vehicles & weapon platforms.  The lack of good troops is a major downer - at least the mutants are super cheap - but if you want to play a dedicated R&H army you can scrape together something if you just take cheap cultist or mutant squads to fill slot requirments, or maybe skip the troop-heavy detachments outright for the elite or heavy support based alternatives.

 

 

Again, though, for a CSM army looking to pick up some toys there's a lot to grab.  Maybe a supreme command detachment full of cheap smiting psykers in a chimera (if you ignore the obviously unintended bit where they can't technically ride them), maybe some earthshaker batteries in heavy support, maybe a couple cheap-as-chips dual sniper marauder squads.  And put all that in a more general CSM army with some cultists, some five-man csm squads toting heavy weapons, some deep striking terminators, maybe a few heavy bolter or laser destroyer rapier platforms, maybe a couple dual-soulburn decimators to add to the mortal wounds those psykers are putting out....


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#16
Raven1

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Oh whoops my bad thanks for catching my mistake.

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#17
Panzer

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The problem really isn't that Renegades are bad. That's totally fine. We have a system to that is supposed to consider and balance that. It's called points. "Bad" units cost less because they can do less. So you can take more of them or more of the actually good units. It's just that FW wennt full derp there once more....or whoever wrote it doesn't understand how a point system is supposed to work which would be really sad lol


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