Aothaine Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Hey everyone! So I was thinking about making my units a successor chapter to the Blood Angels possibly but I was concerned. I plan on playing competitively and wanted to make sure I would be able to use the Blood Angels rules with my successor chapter. Anyone know how this works? Can I still use rules that affect "Blood Angels" if I am running a successor chapter? How will the competitive scene see it? Will they allow the use of special characters and units in a successor chapter in a "counts-as" type approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Yes, you may do all of this. A "Blood Angels" army is based on the rules being used, not the appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 Nice! Thank you! Time to do them all up Angels Sanguine style! Fallenturtle 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallenturtle Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Nice! Thank you! Time to do them all up Angels Sanguine style! That's what I was planning on doing. I might however just do my tactical squad in Angels Sanguine and have everything else the normal angels colors. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Yes, you may do all of this. A "Blood Angels" army is based on the rules being used, not the appearance. Unfortunately that is not quite true. By RAW you cannot use Astorath, Dante and other named characters, if you claim that your army is a successor chapter. The rules are unclear what happens if you claim that your army is Blood Angels but you use a non-standard paint scheme like painting them silver and red and giving them a Knights of Blood symbol on the shoulder pad. What you definitely cannot do is mix and match named characters from different chapters like Mephiston and Seth. That is if you want your units' abilities to affect the other units in the army. We cannot guess how your competitive scene will react, but a reasonable approach would be to say as long as you follow all the rules for a certain chapter paint job should not matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 We cannot guess how your competitive scene will react, but a reasonable approach would be to say as long as you follow all the rules for a certain chapter paint job should not matter. Which is the way it has always been, from 3rd ed, where Angels Sanguine used the BA rules, to now, where they can still use them. To make it work, your paint scheme can be red and black for the Sanguine Angels, but your chosen <CHAPTER> keyword has to be Blood Angels to use the characters. Aothaine and Morticon 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 To make it work, your paint scheme can be red and black for the Sanguine Angels, but your chosen <CHAPTER> keyword has to be Blood Angels to use the characters. Exactly, however the rules are fuzzy on whether this combination of paintjob and rules is allowed and imply it isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 To make it work, your paint scheme can be red and black for the Sanguine Angels, but your chosen <CHAPTER> keyword has to be Blood Angels to use the characters. Exactly, however the rules are fuzzy on whether this combination of paintjob and rules is allowed and imply it isn't Not fuzzy at all and would not hesitate to say otherwise. The only thing preventing a BA army from being a BA army is the <CHAPTER> key words chosen, as Bro. Tyler implied. You could pain them however you'd like, what makes them BA is their key word. Here's what the Index says: "If you wish to theme your army as a Blood Angels successor Chapter, use the rules presented in this section but substitute the Blood Angels keyword in all instances on the datasheets and rules presented in this section with the name of your Blood Angels successor Chapter. Note, however, that named characters that can only be included in your army once cannot be from any other Chapter – Commander Dante is the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels Chapter, and not any successor Chapter." Nothing about paintjob, just about keywords. DexC and Aothaine 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 The rules make no allowance to disconnect paintjob and bits from the keywords. While it is a reasonable assumption to do so, it is not in the rules. They explicitly say that Dante is the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels and not any other chapter, they do not restrict that statement to keyword purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 The rules make no allowance to disconnect paintjob and bits from the keywords. While it is a reasonable assumption to do so, it is not in the rules. They explicitly say that Dante is the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels and not any other chapter, they do not restrict that statement to keyword purposes. They also don't say what colour blood angels are painted. In this instance, BLOOD ANGELS are painted half black and half red. Sun Reaver 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 Interesting discussion. I'm wondering if this will cause problems when I start to hit the big tournament scene in the US. Hmmm. I plan on going to a few events sponsored by GW but also ITC and SN Battle Report's No Retreat out in Gibraltar eventually. So I just want to make sure I'm not going to invest time and money into a project that will cause me problems later down the road. I would like to think that most people would allow the "counts-as" rule and possibly me renaming the models to my own desired name as long as I am clear with my opponent which model is which and how everything flows together. But I wonder about that 'one guy' that we should all have experienced by now ruining my good time but throwing a tantrum about it. I love the Sanguine theme and plan on painting all my marines in this manner but I was just curious what others thought about the 'counts-as' option. There seems to be differing opinions about it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 As per the above, the rules are very clear as to what units can take what CHAPTER keyword, as in, Dante must have the BLOOD ANGELS keyword. There are no rules about how models with the BLOOD ANGELS keyword should be painted, and if, for some reason, GW ever decided to commit corporate suicide and make them, then there wouldn't be a way to force this. My BLOOD ANGELS have white chest eagles instead of the black ones. They're still BLOOD ANGELS. Your Blood Angels might be painted like angels sanguine, but as long as the army is built legally and all have the BLOOD ANGELS keyword, it's fine. Sun Reaver, Aothaine, DexC and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Are we seriously having a conversation about it painting your army a certain way affects the rules? You can dip your models in a gallon of white paint from any hardware store and as long as you point at them and say "they're blood Angels," then by the emperor, they're blood angels. That blurb in the index about successor chapters is only there to point out that you can't mix Gabriel Seth and Dante/other named character in the same detachment. That's it. Silverson and DexC 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Then why did they not write it that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Then why did they not write it that way? Because GW wants to keep forums alive and well? Rules writers have to keep themselves in work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 The rules make no allowance to disconnect paintjob and bits from the keywords. While it is a reasonable assumption to do so, it is not in the rules. They explicitly say that Dante is the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels and not any other chapter, they do not restrict that statement to keyword purposes. Are you for real aha... Do the way models are painted really have an effect on the rules now? (well, except for Orks and red paint jobs on trukks...) DexC 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) I'm not saying it should be read that way, but I see it can be interpreted that way. Especially in a tournament setting there's bound to be "that guy" somewhere. Edited June 26, 2017 by Quixus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Good good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 No, it's a bad argument. As soon as someone has some slight color scheme difference or conversion it doesn't work. My guys have my 3 helmets and white wings-not black-on their chapter insignia. They're still blood angels because before the game I say "these are my blood angels." There's literally no argument as far as paint is concerned. DexC 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Reaver Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 TECHNICALLY, all the successor chapters are Blood Angels But yeah, paint them however you want bro - no one is going to have an issue with it. Looking forward to seeing your WIP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 Thanks again everyone! This top can be closed or decay now. My worries were solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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