Marshal Loss Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) From Massacre: But despite the unmatched gravity of such a revolt, the Emperor remained firmly incommunicado by his own unbreachable order in the depths of the Imperial Palace vaults and could not be reached. Instead it fell to Rogal Dorn as Primarch and the Emperor’s Champion and Malcador, the Regent of Terra, to deal with this unprecedented betrayal accordingly. Dorn was thus invested with immediate command of the still-loyal Legions that could be contacted, and tasked with dealing with Horus and his Traitors with ruthless finality. Dorn definitely played a significant role in organising the retribution fleet. As senior battle-leader among his fellow Primarchs in the first wave, the darkly aggrieved master of the Iron Hands would brook no delay. Not to mention that Ferrus, out of the loyal Primarchs that made it to Isstvan V, would have been made commander by dint of his seniority regardless. Edited January 27, 2018 by Marshal Loss Marshal Rohr and Tipsy Techpriest 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 I do wish that BL (meaning McNeil really) had put as much thought in writing Ferrus as FW did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSwordmaster Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Ferrus Manus really got the short end of the stick when it comes to Primarchs. Ashur 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I do wish that BL (meaning McNeil really) had put as much thought in writing Ferrus as FW did. That'd require "Fulgrim" to have been "Ferrus" instead, for an entirely different perspective of the Dropsite Massacre, and for "Ferrus" to happen almost ten years into the series, rather than a mere year after Horus Rising kicked things off. Like it or not, Ferrus never got his own novel until this point. He never had a real chance to grow because of how the early series was structured. He got a good showing in Fulgrim, but it was not his book. It was about Fulgrim, and Fulgrim's relationship with his brother. It never was about Ferrus, his feelings on the betrayal, his seniority within the Imperium, his stoicism and pride. I don't think it is really fair to put that on McNeill, or even BL. It's just how the cookie crumbled back in 2006/7, before real editorial oversight was established under Laurie. Graham wanted to tell a story about Fulgrim, his pride and fall. There's a lot of things I wish had been handled differently throughout the series, especially early on. Hindsight gives us a lot of opportunities to look back and regret things. The same can be said for the Star Wars prequels, come to think of it... ForgeWorld has the benefit of writing with hindsight, tying things together and in places retconning things, sometimes outright contradicting the novel series. The scope of their work is a completely different one to begin with. Tymell, Warpmiss, apologist and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 I really think McNeil could've done better with Ferrus without massively increasing his screentime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeo Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I liked his brief discourse with Lorgar in "The First Heretic". McNeill's Ferrus was just a foil for his Fulgrim. Even so, I think "Fulgrim" is one the best books in the series. Petitioner's City 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 (edited) I thought the Emperor assigned Ferrus...Dorn did not assign Ferrus. I'm not sure to what extent the Istvaan fleet was "organised" by Dorn Could anyone quote the relevant Nemesis passage? Edited January 28, 2018 by b1soul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Ferrus is not mentioned once in Nemesis, and the Emperor doesn't mention the fleet when he speaks to Valdor/Dorn/Malcador. I've never before heard the idea that the Emperor assigned Ferrus or organised the response to Horus' treachery. The Isstvan fleet was organised by Dorn. As the Primarch invested with control of all the remaining loyal Legions, it was he who made contact with all of the Legions he could and directed them to Isstvan, utilising what intelligence was available. It logically follows that it was he who invested Ferrus with command. Rogal Dorn had been able to contact six Primarchs, then believed loyal, within striking distance of the Isstvan system where long-range intelligence had reported the Warmaster's Legions were still present. The Iron Warriors, the Word Bearers, the Night Lords, the Salamanders, the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion were all dispatched to the Isstvan system, while Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands was given tactical command, with his Leigon following behind him with his wounded fleet. Rogal Dorn's orders to the Isstvan taskforce were explicit and allowed no room for compromise: the rebels would pay with their lives; there would be no mercy for the traitor, and the corpses of Horus, once Warmaster, and his turncoat Primarchs would stand as proof that the Emperor's justice had been done. The Outcast Dead also references Dorn having command, noting that Ferrus doesn't stick to Dorn's original orders. The knowledge that Ferrus Manus was racing ahead of his main fleet for personal revenge had prompted a barrage of messages from Rogal Dorn, urging caution and rigid adherence to his order of battle, but whether any would be heeded was another matter entirely. Out of the Primarchs that were directed to Isstvan, Ferrus was the most obvious choice to take command, as he had seniority, having been discovered before any save Horus and Russ. Massacre establishes that he had previously commanded multiple Legions in the field, something that I don't think any of the other Primarchs there could claim. Dorn, being in charge, organised the rendezvous and directed the Legions he was able to contact to the system, where Ferrus assumed command and made the decision to attack with the three Legions at hand instead of waiting for reinforcements. Kelborn, Tipsy Techpriest, JH79 and 4 others 7 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 The idea is that since the Emp could psychically (or physically) communicate with Dorn, Valdor, Malcador during the period he was supposedly inaccessible (as shown in Nemesis), the Emp may have given critical orders...like whether the Officio Assassinorum should be brought into the light or who should lead the Istvaan force. The former is certain, the latter possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaugamela Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Did anyone already finished reading the book? How was it? RedFurioso, ShadowSwordmaster, Sandlemad and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) The idea is that since the Emp could psychically (or physically) communicate with Dorn, Valdor, Malcador during the period he was supposedly inaccessible (as shown in Nemesis), the Emp may have given critical orders...like whether the Officio Assassinorum should be brought into the light or who should lead the Istvaan force. The former is certain, the latter possible. Semantics. Sure, he could have. If you want to be pedantic, the Emperor could feasibly have intervened at any point in the Heresy, and you could argue that any person at any point may have received invisible counsel or orders from the Emperor that we don't know about. However, there is absolutely no evidence that he did so here; in fact, there is much to the contrary, so the 'idea' is baseless. Dorn's command of the Isstvan taskforce is a long established fact, and there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that Ferrus was placed in command by anybody other than Dorn for any reason other than the fact that he was eminently qualified for the position. It's not like he was a junior Primarch given command for the first time. There are only a handful of others that would have been qualified to lead over him, and none were present. Edited January 29, 2018 by Marshal Loss Marshal Rohr, DarkChaplain, dansupvi and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) I always ponder the following few tidbits: -Ferris was given command of seven Legions at Istvaan (Isstvan or Istvaan? I can never remember). That is the second most a single Primarch leads (that we know of) after Ulanor’s (spelling again?) ten (led by Horus, Emps backinf him up -...said revolt was the biggest thing to ever shake the core of the Imperium. Like, it was declared HERESY big deal. Like, flamethrower to a spider big deal. -I think the HH novel (not Primarch series) Fulgrim talks about how far Fulgrim has to go to speak with Ferrus in person, since he’s overseeing one of THE wings of the entire Great Crusade. Definitely pumped for this one. Looking forward to hearing the feedback of fraters who have read it. Edited January 29, 2018 by Indefragable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 I always ponder the following few tidbits: -Ferris was given command of seven Legions at Istvaan (Isstvan or Istvaan? I can never remember). That is the second most a single Primarch leads (that we know of) after Ulanor’s (spelling again?) ten (led by Horus, Emps backinf him up -...said revolt was the biggest thing to ever shake the core of the Imperium. Like, it was declared HERESY big deal. Like, flamethrower to a spider big deal. -I think the HH novel (not Primarch series) Fulgrim talks about how far Fulgrim has to go to speak with Ferrus in person, since he’s overseeing one of THE wings of the entire Great Crusade. Definitely pumped for this one. Looking forward to hearing the feedback of fraters who have read it. Eight, if you consider that the Imperial Fists' retribution fleet was supposed to meet up with them Marshal Rohr 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 I always ponder the following few tidbits: -Ferris was given command of seven Legions at Istvaan (Isstvan or Istvaan? I can never remember). That is the second most a single Primarch leads (that we know of) after Ulanor’s (spelling again?) ten (led by Horus, Emps backinf him up -...said revolt was the biggest thing to ever shake the core of the Imperium. Like, it was declared HERESY big deal. Like, flamethrower to a spider big deal. -I think the HH novel (not Primarch series) Fulgrim talks about how far Fulgrim has to go to speak with Ferrus in person, since he’s overseeing one of THE wings of the entire Great Crusade. Definitely pumped for this one. Looking forward to hearing the feedback of fraters who have read it. Well, if you go by the title given to Ferrus in "The Board is Set", he's the Iron General. He was the third Primarch to be found, excluding any Lost Primarch shenanigans, and definitely seems to have been set up as one of the major "leaders in the field" amongst the Primarchs. Horus may have been Warmaster, overseeing the grand strategic view of the Crusade, but Ferrus seems to be one of the best for actually overseeing the campaign in person. Iron Hands Fanatic and Marshal Loss 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 @Marshal Loss It's not an issue of semantics. I'm not here nitpicking the definition of words. It's an issue of...the Emperor actually had the ability to communicate and give orders during the period of his supposed seclusion. We don't know which orders he gave behind the scenes. There's no evidence either way in some cases. As I understand it, the FW books are in-universe texts by an Imperial historian. Said historian would likely have no idea about the incident in Nemesis and hence would likely be ignorant of the Emperor's ability to communicate and give orders during that period. Could Dorn have been the guy running day to day operations on Terra. I'm ptetty sure he was. When it comes to critical decisions regarding other Primarchs and Legions, it's rather odd to discount the possibility of communication from the Emperor. If the Assassinorum decision warranted the Emperor's input, perhaps the leadership of the Istvaan force did as well. I wouldn't dismiss that possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 The fact that the Emperor named Dorn in charge of the defenses, and the fact that when we do see the Emperor psychically communicating everyone seems surprised indicates that if he has appeared, it's a big deal. It's a case of Occam's Razor. From the information we know, it is far, far more likely that Dorn organised the Legions that travelled to Istvaan, not the Emperor. Marshal Loss and Marshal Rohr 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Imagine Ferrus would have survived and Corax would have died on Istvaan. With Dorn and Ferrus as defending Commanders, Horus might have a way more difficult task to accomplish. More than eager to read this. Anyone already finished it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Really looking forward to this, one of the primarchs that needs more screentime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) @Marshal Loss It's not an issue of semantics. I'm not here nitpicking the definition of words. Incorrect. ...the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. The two main areas are logical semantics, concerned with matters such as sense and reference and presupposition and implication, and lexical semantics Moving on... @Marshal Loss It's an issue of...the Emperor actually had the ability to communicate and give orders during the period of his supposed seclusion. We don't know which orders he gave behind the scenes. There's no evidence either way in some cases. As I understand it, the FW books are in-universe texts by an Imperial historian. Said historian would likely have no idea about the incident in Nemesis and hence would likely be ignorant of the Emperor's ability to communicate and give orders during that period. Could Dorn have been the guy running day to day operations on Terra. I'm ptetty sure he was. When it comes to critical decisions regarding other Primarchs and Legions, it's rather odd to discount the possibility of communication from the Emperor. If the Assassinorum decision warranted the Emperor's input, perhaps the leadership of the Istvaan force did as well. I wouldn't dismiss that possibility. Alright, I'll try to make this simple. Your entire 'idea' boils down to 'the Emperor has, in what are presumably rare cases, spoken to people while he was stuck on the throne, so he could have done this.' Yes, he could have. That is the sum total of your evidence. On the opposite side, we have innumerable examples of Dorn's key role and the nature of his position, and the fact that Ferrus Manus was one of the most senior Primarchs, a top candidate for Warmaster, and was the only obvious choice to lead the assault on Isstvan. Who else, out of the Loyalist Primarchs + Traitors that revealed their allegiance in the second wave, would have been even remotely suitable for command of a force like this? These are drawn from all sources, not just FW. Dorn was the Praetorian of Terra. That doesn't mean he was running every facet of every day to day operation, nor did I suggest such a thing, but he was as close as it gets to a supreme commander of the Imperium's forces, and there is nothing that suggests otherwise. Note the immense stress Dorn is put under. This is an indomitable figure we see being chipped away slowly over the course of the series. He is being worn down by the 'thousand things on his mind,' and this is coming from the stoic Primarch. the guy who does his duty no matter the cost without complaint. Why was Dorn so surprised to see the Emperor in Nemesis, set two years after Isstvan, if the Emperor had communicated with him previously? Why do we never hear him saying anything about the Emperor contacting him, giving others faith in the orders and decisions he has been making? Why would he have been given this position if he was not going to be able to make decisions? Why, (eg) in Master of Mankind is he left asking the Custodes repeatedly why he isn't allowed to send troops to the throne to help out if his Dad was able to just randomly pop out and give orders? Why is he so bothered if he has been receiving counsel from the Emperor on important issues? Would that he were [Guilliman]. In his absence, I am Lord Commander of the Imperium.’ ‘As you say. When the Traitors reach Terra, Lord Dorn, you must be ready to defend the Palace without the Emperor’s guidance.’ ‘That was my father’s will when He had the Ten Thousand and the Sisterhood at full strength,’ Dorn countered. ‘When He is starved of soldiers and the Traitors mass within the webway, how can His command remain the same?’ ‘If He remains unspeaking,’ Dorn’s colourless voice enquired, ‘how has He requested more warriors?’ The fortress was long complete, and Dorn no longer walked its towers and walls. There was no respite. Not for the Praetorian of Terra. ‘I ordered you to utilise every and all means to bring me reliable information from the frontier,’ said Dorn his hand closing over the onyx and gold pommel of his heavy-bladed sword. ‘Do any of you people understand what is at stake? I am forced to wage a war I cannot see, to fight a foe I cannot gauge, and the only way I can do that is if I know exactly what is happening en route to Isstvan. To save the Imperium, I need you to use only your best operatives. The truth is all that matters, do you understand?’ The last quote is while the Isstvan fleet is en route. This is far from an exhaustive list of quotes, I could go on, and know of some significant others, but it feels pointless. Dorn has clearly not been having contact with the Emperor. It's not just a matter of webway secrecy here. It boils down to this: yes, it is possible. It's also possible, like I said, that the Emperor spoke to anybody at any point and influenced any and all events. Would you suggest that as a response to other discussions where we have similarly well established explanations with a strong basis in-universe? Realistically? No, it's an idea without merit. The Emperor's seclusion has always been a key part of the Horus Heresy. There is no evidence at all to support what you say, and the existence of a 'possibility' does not constitute evidence. It forms at best the basis for a semi-plausible 'what if' thread. In any kind of research, 'ideas' like this are encountered and noted, weighed, and then adjudicated upon. While I would never claim to know for certain, I'm also very confident in dismissing this as a theory without merit. That's not 'odd,' that's common sense. If contrary evidence appears in future publications, I will happily revise my stance. We will clearly not agree, and I think there is nothing left to add. You are welcome to your theory, but the evidence speaks for itself, and you appear to be in the firm minority here. I've said my piece; this thread has been derailed enough. late edit: spelling Edited January 30, 2018 by Marshal Loss 1ncarnadine, choppyred, Marshal Rohr and 5 others 8 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Can we get spoilers anyone?! Jeez.... mr.crusader, JH79 and RedFurioso 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH79 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Not sure if it's been mentioned here but for those feeling a lack of Iron hands love you may want to consider Feat of Iron by Kyme. It is a great Iron Hands Novella from book 20 of the main Heresy series and takes place during the great crusade. It explores the Iron Hands mentality and how they view human soldiers (your flesh os so weak!!! MWAHAHA!!) but also focuses on Ferrus, his quite volatile personality and features some really interesting foreshadowing of his eventual fate. The audio version is a real treat as it's voiced by David Timson who sounds freaking awesome as always!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 @Marshal Loss Why is it a theory "without merit"? It's a possibility. If you think it's unlikely, OK...fine. I think it's hard to say either way "yes, it is possible. It's also possible, like I said, that the Emperor spoke to anybody at any point and influenced any and all events." No one is saying the Emperor had his had in everything or anything. I'm saying something was possible because there was a comparable event. The Emperor communicated psychically to effect an important Imperial decision...bringing the Assassinorum into the light. The Emperor could have communicated psychically to effect an arguably even more important Imperial decision...leadership of the Istvaan force. No one is saying the Emperor psychically told Dorn what flavour of cornflakes to eat that morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 The Emperor psychically played chess with that dude from Outcast Dead so we all know that He was super busy with the webway and not bored at all mc warhammer 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 He did that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Yes of course he did that. You’re not suggesting as a fan of the HH that you haven’t read that novel are you? ... because that would be Heresy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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