The death of chaos undivided?

[Lord Kallozar]

Is chaos undivided slowly becoming an obsolete thing? The new index books only allow daemon princes to be aligned to one of the 4 gods. Similarly, daemon engines have to choose to be aligned to one of the gods too... so what about undivided? Doesn't even seem to be an option anymore. What if you played black legion or word bearers but have to choose a daemon prince that is dedicated to one of the gods, that just doesn't work fluffwise.

 

Thoughts on this guys?

[Commissar K.]

It's largely untouched as there is really only one advantage to not changing <Mark of Chaos> to anything (and this is possible), which is to gain acces to the Icon of Vengeance. Which is allright but in many cases not worth the effort.

The thing though is that in the litteral sence of the word this whole book is Chaos Undivided. As you can mix and match to your liking under the faction keyword Chaos.

Lastly, a dark light ;), Be'lakor is the sickest Daemon Prince available to us. This can be a good datasheet to use if you want to make a sick Chaos Undivided Daemon Prince.

[Scammel]

This has been the case for a while now, unfortunately. The specific declaration of 'Undivided' died with the 4th ed book if memory serves, with only the Icon of Vengeance serving as anything like an approximation since.

[Kol Saresk]

Is chaos undivided slowly becoming an obsolete thing? The new index books only allow daemon princes to be aligned to one of the 4 gods. Similarly, daemon engines have to choose to be aligned to one of the gods too... so what about undivided? Doesn't even seem to be an option anymore. What if you played black legion or word bearers but have to choose a daemon prince that is dedicated to one of the gods, that just doesn't work fluffwise.

 

Thoughts on this guys?

Yes and no.

 

What GW has done is rebrand Chaos Undivided. Where in 3.5 it was an actual Mark that meant "everybody else", now it is supposed to be a concept that represents the coming together of the various forces of Chaos.

 

Game wise, this would be an army that incorporates multiple marks, or none of the marks. Or in 8th edition since we don't have marks the same way we previously have, just faction keywords representing the marks, this would be an army that is either aligned to no gods, or some mixture of the gods, possibly all four.

 

Prime example would be Abaddon, as his Mark of Chaos Ascendant is supposed to be a conglomeration of the four Marks made into one. In 8th edition, this shown by him having all four options for the <Mark of Chaos> keywords, which in turn allows him to be in any mono-god army.

 

It's a matter of the game havig literally changed and there just not having been a good way of explaining it in the rulebooks while leaps and bounds were made to explain in the Black Legion, Night Lords, and Word Bearers series.

 

Speaking of background, since that's how the daemon prjnces get explained, marks are not just voluntary. As shown with Cyrion and Marduk, the gods can just sit there and decide "you know what? I like you. So I don't even care that you hate me, I'm branding you as my property." Although the two times we see it with Marduk, the marks only existed long enough for him to summon daemons of Khorne and Slaanesh.

 

So what this means for daemon princes of the not-cult Legions is that somewhere, a god saw a vested interest in them becoming a daemon prince and elevated them. And since the gods don't like sharing except where they have to, that means the daemon prince becomes attuned to that specific god, even if their preference is all or none.

 

To me, the only exception outside of Bel'akor would be Lorgar as he was chosen by all four gods to be their prophet in the Heresy.

 

As for Perturabo, I think he will probably end up being something like a proto-Obliterator who actually became a daemon instead of some sort of hybrid. Or who knows, they might go back to Rogue Trader and have him be aligned with the god the Iron Warriors were aligned to back then.

 

But yes, Chaos Undivided still exists. But because of how they've changed it and Abaddon is supposed to be the only mortal who has obtained all four Marks, that means that all of the other mortals lose out.

 

And since they've written that Bel'akor is supposed to be the only currently known multi-Marked daemon, that means the other daemons lose out as well.

 

Although I would like Furies to make a comeback since they're just supposed to be the various lost, unMarked souls of Chaos followers.

[MurderKing]

Maybe this is a bit naive of me but I think GW would make rules for Chaos Undivided again if we asked them to. I'm not sure of which avenue to use but it seems like a win-win. If we can get them to make rules/units for Undivided I'm sure people would buy them. The fluff already permits lesser/minor warp entities, and some of them would be Daemon Princes. GW has been making some smart moves lately. If they thought it was profitable I could even see them buying the rights to Malal. 

[Sception]

There is no change in 8th.  This is a continuation of a status quo that's been around for a while.  Basically:

 

1) there are no minor chaos powers / minor chaos gods with their own followers and their own daemons.  There is only the big four.

 

2) there is no such thing as spontaneously becoming a daemon prince.  One has to be chosen and elevated by a chaos god.  Additionally, they can force this ascension on a favored follower against their will, just as they can force marks on followers against their will.  The followers of the chaos gods do not choose, they are chosen.

 

3) the chaos gods do not share marked followers except in extreme cases where a mutual champion is needed against a mutual threat (see horus, abaddon).

 

4) the chaos gods do not share daemon princes at all after be'lakor, because they found with be'lakor that sharing the prince allowed him a considerable measure of independence by simply choosing to follow the wishes of whatever god most fit his own desires in any given instance.

 

5) while a mortal cannot resist a forcible 'gift' of daemonic ascension from a single patron, unless that gift is voluntarily accepted another god can block it with their own offer.  This is how Abaddon resists ascension, every one of the gods would love to make abaddon their own personal prince, but as long as every god is blocking each of the others, none of them can force it on him without his consent.  The same is true to a lesser extent with other figures resisting marks, as long as more than one god wants a given champion, the champion can either choose between them or resist them outright with enough willpower.  But in order to keep this up, the balance must be maintained.  If the champion's thoughts and actions begin to align more with one god than the others that counts as choosing, whether the champion makes a conscious choice or not.  Likewise, the champion might just lose the interest of some of the gods, or the gods might conduct their own personal negotiations and exchanges, like if slaanesh and tzeentch are both balanced in pursuing two different champions, they might just decide to each take one and then both champions find themselves with a single patron capable of forcing daemonhood on them.

 

 

So there's no such thing as undivided princes (apart from belakor), and undivided squads are either units where different individuals are marked by different gods so the overall unit has no alignment, or else they're units that have not attracted the interest of any chaos god (unlikely for traitor astartes), or else they're units that have attracted the interest of multiple chaos gods (whether through their beliefs in a unified pantheon or through their actions which simultaneously serve multiple gods, such as the single minded pursuit of the extermination of the imperium, which is enemy to all the gods), none of which have yet established exclusive claim to them.

Edited June 26, 2017 by malisteen

[MurderKing]

Where in the background does it state there is only the big four? I've heard that before but I can't remember where. 

[Sception]

It's less that we've had a definitive, overt statement that there are only the big four, and more that references to anything outside of the big four have been systematically removed over the last few editions of the game.  Not that the developers couldn't change their minds again and go in the opposite direction, but that's where things are at the moment.

[MurderKing]

That's fair, but to be fair if they wanted to officially change the lore I feel like they would go out of their way to do so. There's a video about Malal/Malice by 40k Theories on Youtube. In it he talks about how Malice hasn't been retconned, and that GW does make corrections when something is wrong/ no longer valid. I hope they come around to bringing back Undivided. It's inclusion would require little effort and it would bring alot of flavor/ decent background with it. 

[Sception]

Oh, malal/malice we've had direct statements on.  No longer canon, very unlikely to ever be canon again.  The writers seem even more adamant about that then they are about other minor warp powers not being a thing anymore.  Portions of the role he used to play in the fluff have been rolled into Be'Lakor, though.

Edited June 27, 2017 by malisteen

[MurderKing]

I'd agree with the Malal part. GW doesn't own the rights, but not on the Malice part. Where were the direct statements? I definitely agree with Be'lakor being Malal's stand in. There's even a theory that the inspiration for Be'lakor's name came from Kaleb Daark. 

[Kol Saresk]

Malice is in a short story written by Gav Thorpe where he is directly called a minor warp power and he is possessing a Librarian recently turned Renegade.

 

Sorry, I got confused on stories. There's a short story by Gav Thorpe with an entity directly labeled as a "minor warp entity" and then there is a different short story featuring the Sons of Malice in which they sacrifice eleven of their own number who braved a labyrinth to summon Malice to reality. But he is only referred to as Malice, not Malal.

 

 

So Malice exists in 40K, but unless they write another short story, it is unclear whether it is the Malal/Malice of old, or if it is meant to be a new version of the same thing.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Kol Saresk

[Trevak Dal]

I don't think you could have a daemon Prince that was undivided in 7th unless you had a unmarked champion roll big on Phil Kelly's chart of misfortune, which wasn't super common until the Traitors hate supplement (which was very cool and made that stupid chart fun for once).

 

But as of now, all marks are kinda useless.

 

Why didn't GeeDub go with USRs again and have to purple prose describe every form of deepstrike?

 

But Undivided can be seen like how the pantheistic Greeks were. They worshiped Ares whenever they were going to war, worshiped Posideon when they went to sea or to fish, and worshiped Hera and Aphrodite for happy marriages/easy childbirth.

 

Now you may choose a patron deity but you'd still worship all the gods in the pantheon.

 

Where as cults would be like, well, guys who just see Ares as the penultimate of the gods and worship him only, in extreme cases (Berserkers) becoming almost monotheistic in their view.

 

To borrow from film, in Conan the Barbarian, Conan and Subotai are discussing their beliefs while eating, Conan says how Crom laughs as Subotai's Four Winds, and Subotai counters that the four winds soar high above Crom's "sad, angry cave" to which the two laugh it off and continue their journey.

 

Now in game it doesn't matter what your guys believe. If a loyalist diy chapter cult has a wake and bake pot smoking session before vigorously polishing a golden idol of the Emperor-thats background and doesn't matter for the tabletop, which is a skirmish firefight which would take less than 20 minutes in real scale time to complete.

 

I guess that's why while I enjoy writing the background and enjoy reading fiction from writers here and the professionals for the black library, it matter sweet crap all when the dice hit the table.

 

The background and lore can inform your unit selections and maybe influence your tactics and army theme, but the story that matters is what happens on the table.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[MurderKing]

Sorry for the confusion. I thought there were direct statements about the retconning of Malice. 

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know about any direct statements saying he no longer exists, but that would have to have been since 2009 when the short story Labyrinth by Robert Ford was published in the Heroes of the Space Marines anthology. If the statements were from before then, then Malice has since been retconned back into existence, just as a different incarnation.

 

Either way, the Sons of Malice live on without him since they were published in the IA13 by Forgeworld.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Kol Saresk

[Commissar K.]

Be'lakor has nothing to do with Malal, however offcourse a theory could be made that he wanted to become Malal. As he comes from the WFB range and his lore starts there.

Funfact however is that all Daemons and Daemonic character names appear now both in 40K and AoS, arguably at the same time also. Even more interesting is to see how much they are akin to each other in both systems. 

However like 40K, AoS has close to no Undivided Daemons either. 

[shandwen]

This games fluff is always based around what there are models for, so I would doubt that there will be an undivided again anytime soon. The leadership bump is about fitting mark-wise anyways, as non-bank stuff just doesn't draw the power.

[Sception]

It's not that Be'Lakor is related to Malal in the lore, there is no Malal in the lore, iirc there can't be due to intellectual property reasons, Malal/Malice has been completely and utterly scrubbed and will not be returning, even if the writers change their minds on the existence of lesser chaos gods otherwise.

 

I'm not saying Be'Lakor is related to Malal, I'm saying some of Malal's themes - a singular figure embodying the self destructive nature of chaos, a spoiler in the otherwise balanced war between the gods, a patron of anti-chaos chaos forces, a semi-divine patron of betrayal for its own sake, etc - that were orphaned by the removal of Malal from the lore have instead been re-worked into Be'Lakor's characterization.

[MurderKing]

Malal does not equal Malice, as GW owns Malice, and I believe Tony Ackland owns Malal. Malice still has a warband, and  was mentioned in IA13. So Malal has definitely been scrubbed but Malice hasn't.

[Sception]

The 'sons of malice' renegade warband still exist in the fluff, but 'Malice' as a re-named version of the lesser warp power Malal does not.

[Kol Saresk]

The 'sons of malice' renegade warband still exist in the fluff, but 'Malice' as a re-named version of the lesser warp power Malal does not.

Unless whatever direct statements you are talking about and not showing came into existence after 2009, Malice very much does exist.

[RapatoR]

Well apparently the Undivided is making slow comeback as it is mentioned in Master of Mankind, and Robbie MacNiven also mentioned on his tumblr that champions of Undivided are very powerful, but extremely rare.

[Kol Saresk]

Well apparently the Undivided is making slow comeback as it is mentioned in Master of Mankind, and Robbie MacNiven also mentioned on his tumblr that champions of Undivided are very powerful, but extremely rare.

Like I said, it never left, it was merely rebranded. But in the process of rebranding, the game changed.

 

Because Undivided champions would end up having to have the favor of more than one Chaos God and there is just no way to show that on the tabletop. You can do armies, but not characters. Unless you take Abaddon.

 

Also, I get a kick out of Be'lakor. Because the article spends so much time saying how his history is conflicted and filled with lies, and how he's an unwitting slave to the whims of the Gods with no will of his own, but he's also supposed to be actively working against the Chaos Gods by trying to sabotage Abaddon.

 

“Hidden behind a veil of secrets and lies, it is impossible to know for sure if Be’lakor is doing the bidding of the Chaos Gods or working against them. However, his plots and plans have ultimately been instrumental in Abaddon’s ascendance to power.

 

As the End Times hurtle towards their terrible conclusion, Be’lakor once again stands in Abaddon’s shadow. As the Warmaster embarks upon his Thirteenth Black Crusade against the Imperium, the Daemon marches with him. With hatred and jealousy guiding his hand, the Daemon Prince has worked his way close to the Warmaster, earning a place in Abaddon’s inner circle and making him believe he is the herald of the Ruinous Powers. Be’lakor is surely plotting against Abaddon in some way, seeking to undermine the victory intended for the Warmaster by the Dark Gods and claim the power and glory of conquest for himself. Where and when this treachery will reveal itself is known only to Be’lakor himself...”

 

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Dataslate: Be’lakor, The Dark Master (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2013-11-29. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=768655518

[MurderKing]

The 'sons of malice' renegade warband still exist in the fluff, but 'Malice' as a re-named version of the lesser warp power Malal does not.

There's no proof of that. 

[Sception]

Honestly, sabotaging Abaddon isn't exactly against the interests of the chaos gods.  They're in the same place with him that they were with Horus.  They need him to provide a singular mortal leader to focus their efforts to kill the Emperor/Imperium, but they've invested too much power and authority in him, to the point where he risks the balance in their great game.  On the one hand, they each still harbor dreams of Abaddon choosing them over their rivals and handing them all the power that all four gods have invested in him, but on the other hand they are fearful that he might choose one of the other gods instead.  They've each foisted more and more power on him to try to sway him, pushing their rivals to do the same, but that's just made the situation worse.  And they're beginning to realize that if he ever succeeded in killing the emperor, it wouldn't mean an end to the empire, it would just mean a new empire with a new emperor, potentially even more dangerous than the last due to the powers they gave him.

 

Every chaos god at this point wants Abaddon dead only slightly less then they need him to succeed, but no one of them can afford to act against him individually, lest he turn the power of the rest of the pantheon against them.  So here comes Be'Lakor, thinking he's acting independently when really he's just acting out the chaos gods' unspoken, likely even unthought desire to betray their own champion.  But they still need Abaddon to command their combined forces long enough to break through to Terra and kill the Emperor before they turn on him, and hey would you look at that, it just so happens the Shadowlord only plans to to betray Abaddon in the last possible moment once victory is already achieved.

 

Like every other daemon prince, Be'Lakor's free will is a lie.  He puts up a better front than most, what with motivations coming from and pushing him in four different directions, but even so.