Shield of Faith and Deny the Witch

[hunterkiler86]

How exactly does this work?  i've read the rule several times and not entirely sure how it could beat a pyschic test if the warp charge is 6 or 7 with one D6.  Do you add the role to your leadership or somewhere else?

[Jacinda]

Correct, there is no way to defeat a WC 6+ power with Shield of Faith.

Sisters are not a bunch of witches, after all.  Just more resistant than other humans.

[A.T.]

How exactly does this work?  i've read the rule several times and not entirely sure how it could beat a pyschic test if the warp charge is 6 or 7 with one D6.  Do you add the role to your leadership or somewhere else?

 

You have to wait for your opponent to roll a 5 while trying to manifest a WC 5 power, and then you need to roll a 6.

Chance of success <2%

 

It'll stop the occasional smite and that's about it.

[Noeh]

Out of every psychic power available in 8th (somewhere around 48), you can deny about 7 of them. Most of that number is only if your opponent rolls the exact wc level required and you roll a perfect 6. I expect people to very very quickly and frequently forget that deny the witch even exists.

Bring anti-psycher if you ever want to deny the witch.

[Gen.Steiner]

I spoke to one of the designers (Simon) at Games Expo '17 about this very thing and the answer was basically:

"Yes, it's not very good, but it's leagues ahead of every other army. No-one else has anything like it."

 

So, sure, it's got less than a 2% chance of doing anything but that's more than 0%!

[Servant of Dante]

Um, im pretty sure it's Necrons that have people who can full-on Deby the Witch on 2 dice even though they aren't psykers. So yes, other non-psykers do have something better (I might be wrong that it's necrons, but I'm pretty sure I heard this in one of the faction reviews I've seen, but I suppose I could be mistaken).

[Noeh]

Um, im pretty sure it's Necrons that have people who can full-on Deby the Witch on 2 dice even though they aren't psykers. So yes, other non-psykers do have something better (I might be wrong that it's necrons, but I'm pretty sure I heard this in one of the faction reviews I've seen, but I suppose I could be mistaken).

 

Played a game and was paired up with a necron squad. They have a spider thing which has a rule that says "You can attempt to deny one psychic power in the psychic phase." No range, no restriction, much better than anything Sisters have. Means you can just roll 2d6 against any power used on the board as far as RAW go.

[Gen.Steiner]

But that's one single unit, not an entire army. That's the difference. Every single Sisters unit with Shield of Faith can Deny the Witch ... and gets an invulnerable save to boot!

[A.T.]

Every single Sisters unit with Shield of Faith can Deny the Witch*

*on the proviso your opponent uses a WC5 power, and rolls exactly 5 :p

 

Inquisitor Hector Rex is probably the first look for full on dispels as an ally - three attempts per round with a +1 bonus for the same cost as Greyfax, though not as much of a leadership boost for nearby troops.

[GodwynDi]

But that's one single unit, not an entire army. That's the difference. Every single Sisters unit with Shield of Faith can Deny the Witch ... and gets an invulnerable save to boot!

 

The invulnerable save is indeed nice.  The deny the witch is practically useless.  I just hold out hope that we will get a relic to improve it.

[Gen.Steiner]

Of course we are all missing the obvious point. The best way to counter your opponent's filthy witchcraft is to kill (preferably with fire) all their filthy witches. :)

[taikishi]

No, we're not missing the point. The fluff/"kill the witch" side of things is not the same as "our ability to Deny the Witch is worthless despite what GW claims".

 

Adamantium Will was much better, even if it didn't work on buffs, because you needed to roll a 5 or 6 and that was it. An ability usable on only seven powers, and only if your opponent rolls a 5 on 2d6 (before modifiers) is horrid.

 

Your opponent has an 11.11% chance of rolling exactly a 5, assuming no modifiers. You have 16.67% chance of rolling a 6.

 

.1111 * .1667 = 0.0130

 

So you have a 1.3% chance of denying the witch. 98.7% of the time it does absolutely nothing. Compare that to a 33% chance to Deny with the old Shield of Faith or the fact that every other army has some way of straight up denying the witch by beating their casting roll. Even if your opponent rolls an 11, you still have a 2.78% chance of denying the witch on two dice from your own psyker -- more than twice the probability of denying a witch with Shield of Faith

Edited June 28, 2017 by taikishi

[Gen.Steiner]

You simply lack FAITH.

On a more serious note, yes, it's not great, but it is still a non-zero chance to deny at least some powers, as opposed to zero chance with any other army's units.

Addition of a psyker (from either the Adeptus Astra Telepathica or the Inquisition) to add some more serious witchcraft-denial isn't a massively onerous task although it does rather water down Sororitas-only armies.

[Jacinda]

 

Addition of a psyker (from either the Adeptus Astra Telepathica or the Inquisition) to add some more serious witchcraft-denial isn't a massively onerous task although it does rather water down Sororitas-only armies.

I don't know, I think Greyfax fits rather well even if she is no longer a Sister.  All in all it does feel like a step towards the old Witch Hunters.

[Beams]

I think the codex will probably give us a buff on that.

 

Sure, the ability is worthless now, but we don't know if it's really just a include for future proofing.

 

So, there could be an order specific strategem that says: Spend one command point to add d6 to your deny the witch attempt.

 

And then, bam, a 45 pt squad has a decent chance to block a psychic power.

 

Or it could be spend 3 command points to add d6 to your deny the witch this round. Which then retroactively makes shield of faith good, battle sister squads worth using (as they are required for detachments that grant more command points) and Celestine worse (as she'd stop you from taking the [order] level keyword)

[Gen.Steiner]

Why would Celestine stop you from taking an <Order> keyword?

[taikishi]

Re-read what Beams wrote.

 

People are fairly certain army-specific strategems are coming, but they'll require you to only field models from that army. This could include Chapter Tactics and Legion abilities. For example, if Codex: Adeptus Ministorum were to give a strategem that can only be used if your entire army contains models from the Order of the Sacred Rose, then taking Celestine prohibits you from using that strategem because she doesn't have an Order keyword.

[Sir_Gaea]

Also, if a stratagem needs Order of the Sacred Rose then everyone with unique style Ofders are screwed. I can see HQ units being tied to certain Orders, but Stratagems?

 

That would...not be fun.

[Servant of Dante]

What? Stratagems tied to specific factions was the whole way they were going to make mono-faction armies viable, I thought. I want to see strategems for all 6 Major Orders, and Minor Orders do exactly what a successor chapters have been doing for years: use the rules of their parent Order.

 

As for the Sisters DTW ability in 8th, it's a joke. I'm glad they didn't throw t out entirely, but it's way to situational to be a legitimate benefit.

[Gen.Steiner]

I see Shield of Faith more as an invulnerable save that has a funky anti-psyker bit tacked on, rather than the other way around though.

Huh. I think that they would be more inclined to do Strategems unique to Adepta Sororitas rather than <Order> keywords, probably.

Even if the unique Stratagems meant you couldn't take (say) Priests or Celestine to get them, they'd have to be very good indeed to warrant not taking Priests or Celestine!

[taikishi]

I spoke to one of the designers (Simon) at Games Expo '17 about this very thing and the answer was basically:

 

"Yes, it's not very good, but it's leagues ahead of every other army. No-one else has anything like it."

 

So, sure, it's got less than a 2% chance of doing anything but that's more than 0%!

 

The thing is, GW is incorrect that it's leagues ahead of any other army. Looking at each faction individually and not "Imperium", "Chaos", etc...

 

* Orks, Tyranids, Genestealer Cult, Inquisition, Ynnari, Eldar, Harlequins, all flavors of Marines, Daemons and Guard can just take a psyker to deny and will always have a better chance to deny than Sisters, and can deny ANY power used as long as a 12 or higher isn't rolled.

 

* Necrons can take up to three Canpotek Spyders with Gloom Prisms per heavy support choice. Each Gloom Prism permits one Deny the Witch roll (regardless of range) using the normal rules, which is the equivalent of a psyker in any of the above armies.

 

* Sisters of Silence have an 18" aura that lowers casting rolls and can't be targeted by psychic powers, both of which are better than Shield of Faith's deny.

 

* The Cullexus Assassin is a better Sister of silence (-2 instead of -1), but his aura doesn't stack.

 

 

That leaves...

* Custodes, Mechanicus and Knights have no way to Deny without taking Imperium Psykers (or Chaos for Traitor Knights)

 

* Unless I missed something, Tau have no way to Deny the Witch and Dark Eldar, like Mechanicus and Knights, can't deny without taking an Aeldari psyker

 

 

That means Sisters are better at denying the witch than six armies when it comes to stopping psychic powers: Custodes, Mechanicus, Imperial Knights, Traitor Knights, Dark Eldar and Tau. The remaining fourteen factions have something better.

 

So I don't see how what Sisters have is "leagues ahead than any other army." He is right about how "no one else has anything like it", because what they have is either nothing at all or something infinitely better.

[Beams]

So, they've said a couple times that their will be levels of army building and strategems accompanying them.

 

So:

Imperium -> 3 brb strategem

Adeptus Ministorum -> additional x steategems

Adepta Sororitas -> additional x strategems

Order -> +X strategems, possibly order specific.

 

Which would limit what you can take, but would reward you for a fluffy list. Also, you can always have the [order] use the rules for Martyred Lady or Argent Shroud or whatever, much like space Marines do.

[Sir_Gaea]

What? Stratagems tied to specific factions was the whole way they were going to make mono-faction armies viable, I thought. I want to see strategems for all 6 Major Orders, and Minor Orders do exactly what a successor chapters have been doing for years: use the rules of their parent Order.

 

As for the Sisters DTW ability in 8th, it's a joke. I'm glad they didn't throw t out entirely, but it's way to situational to be a legitimate benefit.

Wait, succesor chapters could do that for the marines? I thought that only the named successor chapters could use the tactics, and that ones players made up were SOL.

 

Okay, thank you for that clarification.

[taikishi]

They could in 6th and 7th, we don't know about 8th yet because other than the Index very specifically states something that affects "UIltramarines", like Guilliman or an Ultramarine Captain, won't affect "Novamarines" because their chapter is "Novamarines", not "Ultramarines".

[Beams]

Right. But there's nothing stopping you from having Ultramarines on paper who just happen to be painted like Novamarines on the board.

 

They just don't want you to have a situation where Novamarines get bonuses from Novamarines characters and Ultramarines characters. However, if your Novamarines are Ultramarines, than you don't have to worry about it.