Unit of the Week: Terminators

[Ebon Hand]

After rereading the rules for combat, I realize it says the two options you have when you're in combat are "remain stationary or fall back".

 

Now while teleportation isn't a move (it's instead of a move), they are hardly remaining stationary. So to teleport out of combat, I think they would first have to declare fallback, then teleport instead of moving, as the requirement for fallback is simply that they end 1 inch away.

 

This will require an FAQ, but I think this explanation makes the most sense in the rules.

[Kua]

See FAQ quote on previous page.

[Ebon Hand]

I saw it, but how does that address the limitation of being in combat during the movement phase? Under the movement rules, the falling back section states:

 

"Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back,the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units."

 

So per the FAQ, while you can teleport instead of moving, it doesn't say you can teleport instead of Fall Back. You still have to declare Fall Back to have the option to move out of combat.

 

At least that's how I understand it. It's definitely a good FAQ candidate and should be discussed with your opponent prior to using them.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

The FAQ basically says:

 

"Can I do action X with a requirement of replacing action Y, even if I cannot actually perform action Y?"

 

"Yes."

 

Action X is teleport homer jump. Action Y is move. It doesn't matter if you can't perform Action Y, you can still perform Action X. The only thing that you require for the teleport homer jump, according to the FAQ, is not have moved that turn. Even if you can't move, as long as you didn't move, you can jump. And of course you didn't move, because you can't.

 

Now, GW could very well say the FAQ only works for smoke launchers and teleport homers work differently. But until they actually FAQ the two differently for some strange reason, most people are going to say the FAQ logic is consistent throughout both wargear.

[Ebon Hand]

The guy who runs my local league actually agreed with Tyberos' and Kua's interpretation. His view is that the rules that prevent you from moving out of combat don't specifically limit teleporting out of combat.

 

Combined with that well written explanation by Tyberos, you guys have convinced me! I think you are right, most people will rule it this way.

[Alcyon]

Here's another question — we can all agree that a character in Terminator Armor doesn't get to make use of a Teleport Homer even if he's "nearby" a unit of Terminators that does happen to have one, right? This kinda sucks. Do we expect this to perhaps change in an FAQ or something?

[Kua]

Yes, yes it does, and no.

Maybe with the codex, but even then I doubt it.

[Race Bannon]

I agree. Don't get me wrong, after this discussion it would be awesome :lol:

[Gen.Steiner]

I likes my Terminators. Always have, even when they weren't the best. All mine are proper classic Terminators of the only one true pattern, none of this new-fangled Tartare or Catbox stuff for me! :P

(yet)

Anyway! I have an assault squad with 3x TH/SS and 2x LC for my Black Templars, a standard squad with an assault cannon for my Righteous Fists, and a standard squad with two Cyclones for my Red Hunters.

My tuppence is that teleportation is great for shooty Terminators but assault Terminators really need a Land Raider to get them from A to enemy. A 9" charge is just too risky to make teleport assault worthwhile.

[Adeptus]

I likes my Terminators. Always have, even when they weren't the best. All mine are proper classic Terminators of the only one true pattern, none of this new-fangled Tartare or Catbox stuff for me!

 

(yet)

 

Anyway! I have an assault squad with 3x TH/SS and 2x LC for my Black Templars, a standard squad with an assault cannon for my Righteous Fists, and a standard squad with two Cyclones for my Red Hunters.

 

My tuppence is that teleportation is great for shooty Terminators but assault Terminators really need a Land Raider to get them from A to enemy. A 9" charge is just too risky to make teleport assault worthwhile.

Teleportation assaults take away the opponents ability to react, though. Doesn't matter where they are, you can put your assault unit down and then charge. Sure, you need a 9 but you've got a CP re-roll and maybe a Veil of Time re-roll. Deploying out of a vehicle to assault means the enemy can destroy your vehicle before it gets into position, or move away from your vehicle as it advances. Having to disembark before the vehicle moves makes it difficult to time correctly.

 

Not saying one is better than the other, just that there are several points to consider in both directions.

[Gen.Steiner]

That's true, but for the VoT you need a Terminator Librarian... and the threat of an incoming Land Raider isn't to be sniffed at! I certainly think Teleport Assault has its place as an option, though.

[LucidNinja]

I had a fun game with my tartaros the other day, they got destroyed by a combination of bad rolls and holy hell genestealers are nasty haha

 

Highlight of the game was mind control on my plasma sergeant, over heating and killing himself and another terminator at the same time

Edited July 9, 2017 by LucidNinja

[Gen.Steiner]

Mind control? He lacked the iron protection of True Faith in the God-Emperor, clearly. Death was his just reward for such weakness and treachery! ;)

[Volt]

What would be a better weapon to statistically take for tactical terminators, an assault cannon or missiles?

[Kua]

Look at the missile’s point cost and you have the answer. ;)

[Gen.Steiner]

Cyclones, generally, are more versatile and better en masse than any other option.

Unless, like me, you like lots of different weapons on your units (Deathwing - four tactical Terminator squads - Assault Cannon, Cyclone, Plasma Cannon; Heavy Flamer), I would just spam Cyclones and use your Terminator squad(s) as a fire support base that has the option of fisting stuff to death.

[Kua]

Mh… an interesting view.

Do you have some numbers calculated to support it?

It sure is a benefit for expensive weapons being able to be removed last, but there is a significant cost difference, so before taking them, I’d prefer to view some theory.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Mh… an interesting view.

Do you have some numbers calculated to support it?

It sure is a benefit for expensive weapons being able to be removed last, but there is a significant cost difference, so before taking them, I’d prefer to view some theory.

 

http://i.imgur.com/O8swqr1.png

 

Source of calculations.

[Kua]

Yes, like this.

Do you have an interpretation of what to take?

To me, it still doesn’t seem like cyclones being the better choice.

[Gen.Steiner]

Longer range than the other options, krak has higher S, doesn't take the Storm Bolter away, krak has better AP, flexibility in shots - do you want 2d6 (off the top of my head) frag shots or do you want 2 S8 shots?

It's more expensive, yes, but it's just ... better.

[Kua]

For bolter targets, I obviously want 6 S6. ;)

[Volt]

 

Mh… an interesting view.

Do you have some numbers calculated to support it?

It sure is a benefit for expensive weapons being able to be removed last, but there is a significant cost difference, so before taking them, I’d prefer to view some theory.

 

http://i.imgur.com/O8swqr1.png

 

Source of calculations.

 

Thanks, Cyclones certainly seem to be an objectively superior choice for everything besides shooting up GEQ.

[Gen.Steiner]

Mm. There's definitely synergy with the Assault Cannon (and I use them, don't get me wrong), but I think that the average of 7 S4 frag shots generated by the Cyclone with a longer range edges it out for me. Especially as there is the potential for 12(!) hits.

Assuming my memory is correct.

Because if it's not I will look quite the fool. :P

[Kua]

Idk, the additional storm bolter is a good point, but otherwise the frag missiles are too far below the assault cannon effectiveness to be a replacement. You see the numbers. Assault cannons are superior or at least equal against any infantry up to 2 wounds.

(Not only GEQs, as Volt states).

 

Maybe the numbers get better if we add the storm bolter, but probably still not good enough considering the cost.

[Race Bannon]

Isn't that in a vacuum though? I mean, if the goal is to build "one-size-fits-all" lists, then I think the Assault Cannon is better overall.